Quote from: johnlambert on April 11, 2015, 11:21:07 PM15% failure rate by my maths.  I don't know if I should count the LMS Coronation Pacific that I didn't buy because of paint defects. 

And I think I might have had Oscar Wilde's famous quote in mind

15% is ok, let's hope I eventually achieve that, swmbo is not impressed at the mo. !
Yep new paint defects would count in my statistics but no, not the (uncontrolled sample) second hand

Ok Ernest

But anyway folks, we seem to have all drifted into BF faults QC etc&etc cf other manufs.
whereas my main sadness was the response of my dealer who seemed to be suggesting that it was (would become) my problem and that I would have to accept a warranty solution in future.

Point taken Malcolm, re comment towards end of your last posting ............

However, taking into account some colleagues' comments in the thread, regarding their recent purchases, I wonder how that leaves those who have bought from "overseas sources" and perhaps encountered problems?

Some years ago, the practice of buying new cars from outside UK and the apparent associated financial savings was countered by stories of "difficulties" with local dealers when faced with warranty or service issues.

In the last week or two, I have been very interested to see the take up (reported on NGF) of very modestly priced Class 37 and I wonder has everyone been "lucky" with their purchases in terms of performance/quality?  In the event that a problem may have been encountered, what action followed?

Apologies, once again, for straying from the main theme of your posting

Adrian

Yet again, if posting are accurate, it seems the failures are concentrated in the hand of a few modellers and others have few or no failures...

It can't be just random distribution, so what is it?? Is it those modellers handling of the locos? (probably not in this case as they are straight out of the box) or the modellers willingness to fix minor issues themselves (possibly) or the dealers used (there have been allegations of some retailers reselling returned items and not returning to Bachmann).

For what it's worth, between all of us in the Hull N gauge crew, the only loco with multiple out of the box failures was the Farish 3MT...

Good points you raise there PLD!

Quote from: PLD on April 12, 2015, 08:07:17 AM
or the modellers willingness to fix minor issues themselves

You raise some interesting questions !

I dont think "willingness to fix" applies for "out of the box".
Or if you think it should then I would say "only with the agreement of the retailer" because you would otherwise leave yourself in trade dispute difficulties if the retailer was not co-operative 'after the event' ( He may have been co-operative if you had consulted him first but there is no reason why he should be if you have been 'fiddling' previously )
So, if you are going back** to the retailer in that case anyway then the retailer can propose the solution for your agreement.

If however you have accepted the goods as satisfactory and later something unfortunate happens then that is when warranties may apply and willingness to fix becomes appropriate, but again I would say only with the agreement of the retailer else you risk breaking the warranty agreement.

EDIT ** PS I mean by that "contacting the retailer" to cover the case where you are some distance away, did not apply in my case. If he agrees that it would be reasonable for you to fix it, ie. he thinks / believes that you are competent, then yes, why not.

Quote from: Adrian on April 12, 2015, 06:40:40 AM
I wonder how that leaves those who have bought from "overseas sources" and perhaps encountered problems?

Without a leg to stand on ! I think !!

It seems to me that the retailers are caught between a rock and a hard place. If the retailers are responsible for the goods that they are selling and the goods have QC issues then it is the dealers problem in the first instance, but in the bigger picture it should come down to the quality of the goods that they are trying to sell. Statistics requires large sample sizes to establish failure rates on goods, and I understand that some buyers might be very lucky in not having any problems with a relatively small number of loco purchases. My experience has been out of 8 Dapol and Farish locos that I have bought, 2 had totally unacceptable running problems and another 2 had marginally acceptable performance. If the true failure rate of locos were 15%, then I would have to be very unlucky in statistical terms with my purchases. Even if the failure rate were 15%, which I think is low based on this forum posts and others, this is far too high.

I live in Australia and locomotive failure is a real nuisance. My purchases are necessarily online and I don't have the luxury of going down to the local model shop and complaining. To be fair, when I have a dud, the seller has always provided a replacement even though here is a rigmarole involved. The bottom line is that Farish and Dapol manufacture beautiful and detailed looking locos, but their mechanical and electrical designs are not up to scratch. This is the fundamental problem. 

Webbo

Totally agree with Webbo, nicely put.

Another thing wrong with PLDs analysis ( apart from trying to distinguish those who feel capable from those who are over confident in their abilities ! )
if something is easily fixable then my retailer could easily have fixed it himself, or, in friendly fashion, shown me how to do it and then I would have learned something.
Well actually he did with one problem, but could not with the other problems,,,  obviously ! else he would not be proposing to return to BF so willingness is a red-herring or a hobby-horse.

Quote from: PLD on April 12, 2015, 08:07:17 AM
Yet again,

"Yet Again" !

Anyway, y'all be pleased to know that the replacements are still running beautifully this morning ( I hope that does not over-tempt providence ! )

Malcolm

I actually thought PLD raised some interesting points.

Agree that Webbo made a good post.

Cheers

Dan

Quote from: DesertHound on April 12, 2015, 10:36:01 AM
Malcolm
I actually thought PLD raised some interesting points.
Agree that Webbo made a good post.
Cheers
Dan

Yes Dan,
so did I  :->

Quote from: MalcolmAL on April 12, 2015, 09:50:49 AM

Quote from: PLD on April 12, 2015, 08:07:17 AM
or the modellers willingness to fix minor issues themselves

You raise some interesting questions !

I think we have probably thrashed this one to death enough now ? (for this week LOL! )

>>> back to playing testing trains >>>>

Sorry Malcolm ... it all seems lost on me today 

I'll retire to something else for the afternoon 

Quote from: MalcolmAL on April 12, 2015, 10:52:44 AM

Quote from: DesertHound on April 12, 2015, 10:49:47 AM
Sorry Malcolm ... it all seems lost on me today 

I'll retire to something else for the afternoon 

No prob Dan
Gosh is it afternoon already over there means it soon will be over here as well and I have yet to achieve anything much today, , ,  better go get another coffee

Yes, back to three hours time difference (ahead) for the summertime. Makes the world of difference from the four hours in the winter - especially if you want to watch UK telly of an evening

I really sympathise with shop owners or traders but how many times have I heard that before...

QuoteMuch consternation in the shop "we have sold lots of these, never had any returned" etc.

You shouldn't feel guilty returning anything on a genuine basis though.  I wished I did it years ago with a few of my first purchases.  I haven't bought any new loco's bar 1 in about 18 months now because I remember hassles before -but you shouldn't let that put you off otherwise you just wouldn't bother with the hobby at all.

...It's entirely possible one person can get all the "duds" and the other person get none, just as much as possible for it to be random.  I think the "duds" are to be fair probably relatively few, but I know how it feels 1st hand when you get a run of them!

Rich

Ach, actually I probably mis-placed the quotes.  99% of suppliers are NOT going to say "flip sake, third time this week".

...I feel sympathy because the QC hasn't been done before and it looks bad on the shop (unless you're ebay nobody knowingly sells on dodgy stuff), the buck stops with the shop without question though, it's then their beef with their supplier.

...I've gone off buying things these days when I can't see it out the box / running beforehand.

I envy you guys. My local shop is around about 250 km up the road in Sydney and there I have to pay about 50% more than the RRP price in the UK. So, I buy online and returning items when they fail costs me 10 GBP or so in postage. I would be happy to try to fix items myself but am afraid that such efforts would jeopardise my chances for a shop or a warranty replacement.

The issue of the failure rate of Farish and Dapol equipment is not frivolous. I can do statistics, and I know that my failure rate of 2 locos out of 8 would be quite unlikely unless the failure rate of locos overall were greater than 10%. The first post in this thread asks questions about problems resulting from the purchase of two Farish sets. The issue of QC for British outline is a not uncommon topic on model forums. To be blunt, the QC and design for Farish and Dapol is not up to scratch in my opinion. I model North American mainly and out of 35 locos purchased (mostly Atlas and Kato) the only problem that I've ever had was a squeaky drive bearing on a Kato that was easily fixed with a dab of oil.

Don't get me wrong, I would dearly love for things to be different. The British are known for their penchant for getting  by, but things could be better and you guys should not have to put up with substandard product from your manufacturers. In the meantime I suggest that anyone purchasing locos make sure that they run them for a while before the warranty runs out.

Webbo