What a question! I know it depends but:

Looking to get a steamer or two.

I have a solitary DCC fitted (by the manufacturer straight from the box) Farish Warship which to my inexperienced eye runs fine within the limitations of an EZ command controller, pulling a 5 coach train plus 5 weighted wagons (my whole stock) up a 1 in 40 gradient through a shallow curve, happily.

I get the impression from reading around that in N gauge steamers are not quite as smooth over pointwork as diesel and pick ups are not so good - is this true in your experience? Anyway to improve them?

Do Dapol, Farish and Union Mills all run similarly when DCC? Are the longer wheelbase ones better at pick up than the short ones? But do they struggle on curves?

Any answers to any of the above very welcome.

Oh Heck, Malcolm
I think you've opened Pandora's Box, taken out a can of worms and then thrown it into a hornet's nest
Not being DCC I'll let others respond, but I reckon the replies will be many and varied.

Quote from: newportnobby on March 19, 2015, 10:03:41 AM
Oh Heck, Malcolm
I think you've opened Pandora's Box, taken out a can of worms and then thrown it into a hornet's nest
Not being DCC I'll let others respond, but I reckon the replies will be many and varied.

And then poked said nest with a big pointy stick 

I can't add value here, but I know others will be able to.

Quote from: Nigel Molesworth on March 19, 2015, 08:45:33 AM
I get the impression from reading around that in N gauge steamers are not quite as smooth over pointwork as diesel and pick ups are not so good - is this true in your experience? Anyway to improve them?

I would contend that carefully handled, any modern tool steam model is the equal of any diesel - in some cases the motors employed are superior (see below). Most have an equal amount of pickup (all Farish and Dapol tender locos have all drivers and all tender wheels picking up power, which is more than the diesels that only have the outermost wheels on the bogies picking up power).

There have been some specific models with issues, like the Dapol Pannier with problematic pickup, but I think, and believe from my own experience of my extensive steam fleet, that there isn't a huge amounty of substance in this with modern models.

Quote from: Nigel Molesworth on March 19, 2015, 08:45:33 AM
Do Dapol, Farish and Union Mills all run similarly when DCC? Are the longer wheelbase ones better at pick up than the short ones? But do they struggle on curves?

They will in terms of Dapol steam vs Dapol diesel, Farish steam vs Farish diesel as in many case the motors in both steam and diesel are identical. The newest Farish steam should be far superior to any other as they use a new coreless super smooth motor, which trumps just about everything else in terms of running, it's silent, silky smooth and draws a tiny amount of current.

I've never experienced any significant pickup issues on curves with models, apart from the Dapol panniers and some other Dapol, but these are easily put right, and if you do have trouble with any specific type there is almost certainly a solution out there already. Some slightly earlier farish models occasionally need checked to ensure the wiper pickups are making good contact with the wheel backs as they can get bent to lose contact, but this can be part of routine cleaning/maintenance of keeping everything in tip top condition.

If you have a specific model you are interested in buying then do post that and then folks can give full feedback on their experiences good or bad. But on the whole I'd say there's never been a better time to be a steam modeller in N, and with future promises of high quality models from new manufacturers like DJM and possibly Hornby things are really on the up!

Cheers,
Alan

IMHO there add bad model designs in both camps, probably Dapol have had more than Farish, but the Dapol stuff has improved vastly over the past years and they are now probably as good as one another. Dapol certainly has the odd soldering and QA problem still, while Bachmann still can't fix their gear splitting problem after 15 years owning Farish so neither is perfect.

If you want perfect try a CJM chassis.

Alan

A properly maintained Steam loco model is the equal in terms of performance of a diesel loco model in normal use, however by virtue of their design the diesel will take more abuse and rough handling. The steam loco of course has exposed connection rods and valve gear which unfortunately seem to be some peoples farourite place to hold the loco in a vice like grip!!

the 'footprint' of a tender loco is roughly the same as a co-co diesel,  and a tank engine similar to a small bo-bo, so with a properly maintained loco and regularly cleaned wheels and track, the only time you should have any pick up issues is if you have used dead frog points...

The difference in the pickups is that the diesels have two bogies that can move freely so even with distortion you should always get six points of contact not three.

Thats one reason tender pickups or pickups on trailing wheels are so important on steam locos.

Alan

Quote from: EtchedPixels on March 19, 2015, 08:00:55 PM
The difference in the pickups is that the diesels have two bogies that can move freely so even with distortion you should always get six points of contact not three.

Thats one reason tender pickups or pickups on trailing wheels are so important on steam locos.

The tender can move with similar freedom relative to the loco on a steam model, via the drawbar (assuming it has the appropriate freedom), so I believe there is not much difference.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on March 19, 2015, 08:07:08 PM
The tender can move with similar freedom relative to the loco on a steam model, via the drawbar (assuming it has the appropriate freedom), so I believe there is not much difference.

Cheers,
Alan

Thats true if the tender has pickups- which was the point I was making. If its an old Farish model without tender pickups then the ability of the tender to move helps rather less and its then like a diesel picking up on one bogie (albeit a slightly bigger bogie...)

The other thing to remember is that locos are covered by the sale of goods act like anything else. When you get a new loco, test run it for a couple of hours and if not totally satisfied, return it for a replacement.

Dapol go beyond this with a warranty (1 or 2 years, cannot remember).

Thanks for your replies so far - anyone had experience of Union Mills models converted to DCC and how they run.

I wouldn't dream of trying to do it myself but I note on the forum that some of you use different people to do the work.

It seems to me that, disregarding small tank engines and some of the older Poole Farish models without tender or bogie/pony pickups. the steam vs. diesel running quality issue isn't so much due to pickup reliability as to the problems caused by wheel quartering and motion/valve gear, as well as to the tendency of pony trucks/bogies to derail on points or less than perfectly laid track. The latter can also contribute to poor traction if the trucks take too much weight off the driving wheels (usually due to the springs/contacts being too strong).
I don't have that much experience with current steam loco models (I have a Farish 4MT 2-6-0, Dapol Hall, 9F, 14xx and 45xx; the latter two are early Dapol models and not up to their current quality mechanically) but I am very impressed by the running quality of the Dapol Hall - it is as smooth, reliable and quiet as most diesels. The lack of outside valve gear (cylinder slide bars only) probably contributes to this.

Union Mills locos run very well when converted to dcc. I have a B12/3, D16/3 and three J39s (and hopefully soon a K3), and though the conversion needs a bit of work, the results are very good. I have used decoders which, after a bit of metal work on the inside of the tender, are mounted on top of the motor, and hence do not fill up the cab space.
Martyn

Quote from: martyn on March 22, 2015, 03:09:27 AM
Union Mills locos run very well when converted to dcc. I have a B12/3, D16/3 and three J39s (and hopefully soon a K3), and though the conversion needs a bit of work, the results are very good. I have used decoders which, after a bit of metal work on the inside of the tender, are mounted on top of the motor, and hence do not fill up the cab space.
Martyn

Thanks for this - if you don't mind me also specifically asking,

Comparing with a modern Farish Diesel - when DCC fitted how do you find UM locos on pointwork, sharp curves, track joins (9" - 12") etc, when DCC and what decoders did you use?

My own layout has minimum 15" curves, so Union Mills are no problem on them. My test track includes an 'S' series of bends and the end curves of the oval are all made of Peco 2nd radius, and again, the Union Mills has no problems there. I also use electrofrog points with no problems.
I generally use TCS decoders; of the more recent conversions, the Z-scale one (TCS Z2?), as there is less metal to mill out of the tender top to make it fit. Others have used CT Electronic, as they are smaller still. Control of locos on these decoders is very good.
BTW, for those who haven't worked it out, the K3 is a Foxhunter body on a Farish Crab chassis conversion, and the Union Mills bit is the LNE 4200 gallon tender drive- a very powerful combination.
Martyn