well, here we go with a rant...

when the Dapol A4 first came out, i got mallard, which after less than a day of testing, went back to the shop with a faulty motor and replaced, only to fail on me 2 days later. this then went to DCC supplies for repair, where  a replacement was sent out as it was a write off...

so already 2 write offs...

next on the list was a Dapol A3 Flying Scotsman, which again failed after 2 days. This went to DCC supplies as, you guessed it, a write off!
6 months went by before i could get another as they were discontinued.

next on the list was Modelbahns Mallard in BR Blue. this lasted a week before going to DCC supplies for motor fault. it has since been back 4 times with self exploding valve gear, motor faults and yet more broken valve gear.

Silver link was a breathe of fresh air, no faults at all!

Bittern so far has also yet to be a problem, but i see this as a matter of time.

Now flying Scotsman comes into it again, after a traction tyre came off, i thought i would try replace it, so i removed the nut that holds the con rod to get access, and found it near impossible to get the tyre over the top due to no clearance at the top. so my next alternative was to remove the chassis and running plate and get in that way, no longer than i had removed a screw the valve gear that connects to the running plate snapped off, before quickly being followed by the other side.

This now of course is a write off....

i have just about had it up to here with Dapols very poor A3s and A4s. iv spoken to fiona at DCC supplies, who when looking at my list of repairs mostly consists of fault A3s and A4s. and she tells me A3s and A4s are the main locomotives that come into the workshop for repairs.

iv had enough so much, that tomorrow im getting in touch with Joel, making an official complaint about this model which now sits in god knows how many bits on my desk, as i know for a fact if i send it back, i will probably not recieve a flying scotsman. it can be easily repaired with a new chassis, but i dont see why i should be paying out for a chassis where you have to remove most of it just to fit a bleeding traction tyre!

every other dapol loco as been fine, just these 2 classes of locomotives. and when you add this onto all the other stuff going on in my life, im losing the will to live.



im half tempted to even jack in the hobby as everything just keeps going wrong at the moment, i seem to spend more time repairing locos than i do enjoying them, and most of the time i havent even done anything to them for them to go wrong!

i sometimes wonder what i did in the past life to deserve the life i have now its unbearable at the moment...

I understand your frustration - I went through a similar experience with a stereo system - but don't be so despondent - toy trains is not a matter of life and death, it's LESS important than that.

Blacklist Dapol and buy stuff from Farish/Union Mills in future.

Regards,


Joe Cassidy

Hi

Join my rants on thread 'How Bad, really, are Dapol and Farish'

When I buy any loco I expect it to work, without any adjustment, fettling or other interference - right out of the box. Doesn't always happen - as obviously you and I have found out.

As you say - sometimes you lose the will to live. However it seems amazing to me the number of people that make excuses for the sometimes poor quality of N gauge locos.

Bob Austin

I don't expect every one to be perfect, so reports of a few failures are not unexpected. What I don't understand is why the duds all seem to end up in the same hands. why do some like yourselves have such a bad run (5 out of 7 failures is one of the worst reports I've heard) but others have no issues at all. I could name a couple of people with double figure numbers of A3/4s with no failures at all.

It can't just be random distribution can it?? (I don't believe the manufacturers/dealers deliberately target individuals to dump the duds on) so what is it??

Is it the way the purchasers treat the locos - the way they handle them (I've seen a number with squashed valve gear), store them (on their side in the box is NOT good for the valve gear nor wiper pickups) or run them (e.g. unsuitable controller used, not following running in instructions, overloading etc)
By your own admission, at least one of your failures I'd classify as 'self inflicted'...

Or is it the Dealers? there does tend to be a greater rate of failures reported of models bought mail order from box shifters than those who paid a little bit more to buy from their local model shop, saw it test-run before buying and didn't leave its transport to the vagaries of the Royal Mail (or worst certain couriers especially the one favoured by a certain Scouse emporium!)

I'm not saying it is all your fault (even I have the odd one - think I'm the only person I know to have a Union Mills loco NOT run stright out of the box! (the loco-tender wire had become detached in transit), but there are things you can do to improve your odds.

Looks like I am joining the club, with my Silver Link valve gear woes--it has just gone back to DCC.

So far, my Mallard and Flying Scotsman have behaved well, with Mallard pulling 14 carriages quite happily and 4472 not being not quite so happy with the same set. These locos are barely run in, so there is still plenty of opportunity for them to fail!

I for one, would be happy to trade some Dapol detail for some Union Mills heft and reliability--my D16 4-4-0 was perfectly content hauling 15 carriages in my recent trial.

Quote from: PLD on October 16, 2014, 07:54:05 PM
I don't expect every one to be perfect, so reports of a few failures are not unexpected.

I don't understand.

Why don't you expect every one to be perfect. You are paying your hard earned cash for something that is supposed to work properly. The manufacturer is selling a product to a specification. If it doesn't work to that specification then the product is not fit for purpose. A clear breach of contract. Ok you can return it for a replacement or repair or you can live with a loco that doesn't do what it says on the tin. That's up to you but that means the onus is on you to get the problem sorted although its the manufacturer that's screwed up.

As I've said elsewhere on this forum. Few people would accept some of the problems that occur with N gauge locos for other consumer products we buy.

Its about time we got real and started to complain about poor quality.

I admit that I have never complained to a manufacturer about poor quality but I intend to start right now. I hope others join me.

Bob Austin

So far I have not had any problems with my purchases but if/when I have a problem action will be taken to make those who I feel are at fault very aware of my problem.

Quote from: austinbob on October 16, 2014, 08:15:29 PM

Quote from: PLD on October 16, 2014, 07:54:05 PM
I don't expect every one to be perfect, so reports of a few failures are not unexpected.

I don't understand.

Why don't you expect every one to be perfect. You are paying your hard earned cash for something that is supposed to work properly. The manufacturer is selling a product to a specification. If it doesn't work to that specification then the product is not fit for purpose. A clear breach of contract. Ok you can return it for a replacement or repair or you can live with a loco that doesn't do what it says on the tin. That's up to you but that means the onus is on you to get the problem sorted although its the manufacturer that's screwed up.

Bob Austin

In manufacturing there is going to be a failure rate Dapol used to work on between 3 and 7%. Based on that, if 1000 models are produced, they would expect between 30 and 70 to have an issue. It just seems that unhappy people shout loudest, you won't have heard a peep from the other 900 odd models that have been sold and work well.

This is the same for EVERY manufacturer. No matter if it is TVs, irons, cars or model locos, this is why there is a warranty.

As for not buying Dapol then you really are chopping off your nose to spite your face. How will you get a 9f, a Grange, a 67 or a HST if you refuse to buy Dapol.

If it doesn't work return it and get another. Don't stop buying them because you've had a bad one.

Alistair

Quote from: PLD on October 16, 2014, 07:54:05 PM
Is it the way the purchasers treat the locos - the way they handle them (I've seen a number with squashed valve gear), store them (on their side in the box is NOT good for the valve gear nor wiper pickups) or run them (e.g. unsuitable controller used, not following running in instructions, overloading etc)

That's a good point actually. Not saying it applies to the OP whom I would guess knows how to treat these things with care, but when I used to attend the local N Gauge group the way some of the locos were handled used to make me cringe! Small steamers with delicate con-rods being 'dumped' onto the track quite roughly three or four times using big sausage-fingers in an attempt to rail the loco properly

In these days of finer detail and delicate mechanisms you just can't handle locos like you could 20 years ago - if you DO have fat sausage-fingers then at least use one of the proprietary railer-ramps to line the loco up on the track

Suffice to say that if DCC Supplies have confirmed that a LOT of A3/A4s are returned then there is clearly a bigger problem


Paul

When Dapol announced that they were making correct A4's and A3's I thought that I would finally be able to replace my elderly and (apparently) unauthentic Farish A3 and Minitrix A4...   

...from what I am hearing I am going to keep using these two locos that have never let me down, and will wait until I hear that the Dapol offerings work properly! 

Alistair

I don't know where you get your acceptable failure rate of 3 to 7%. but if that were true then most manufacturers would be bankrupt.

The cost of product failure in manufacturing is far higher than the cost of producing the product correctly in the first place.

Every failure means that the costs to the manufacturer include:

Cost of processing complaints and returns
Cost of replacement or repair - sometimes several times over if the design is dodgy
Cost of administration
Cost of loss of customer confidence - through poor reputation of product faults and reliability

etc. etc.

I have been involved in Quality Management systems and Quality Insurance for many years and I can assure you that Poor Quality costs more to the manufacturer than getting things right first time.

Warranties are there, for good manufacturers, to ensure that the customer has some redress for the OCCASIONAL instances where a bad product slips through the net or there is an unexpected failure within the normal life of the product. A warranty is not a license to ship rubbish!

I am sorry for the rant but I really believe that some of us are making excuses for poor quality in our favourite N gauge products that we would not accept for other consumer products.

Bob Austin

Quote from: austinbob on October 16, 2014, 08:15:29 PM

Quote from: PLD on October 16, 2014, 07:54:05 PM
I don't expect every one to be perfect, so reports of a few failures are not unexpected.

I don't understand.

Why don't you expect every one to be perfect.

Beause:

1 I'm a realist not an Idealist.

2 No manufacturer of anything has ever achieved 100 perfection!
(do you in your employment? You have either made mistakes or have made nothing!!)

3 With tighter Quality Control the failure rate could be reduced, but QC costs big bucks and modelers are in general a tight fisted bunch (with N gauge seemingly worse than most) and those who complain about the failures would also be the first to complain if prices were increased 20-30%!!
The manufacturers have simply found the balancing point between cost and quality where they get the best overall financial return...

thats where your wrong, im not complaining cos of 1 or 2 bad models, im now on my 2nd flying scotsman model, and 8th A4, with each one having some sort of repair except silver link.

what i dont understand is, not one person iv heard of having a silver link has developed a problem, yet the other A4s have.

what did they do with silver link to not encounter any problems yet i know of one of each named A4 encountering a problem. some more than others, mainly the first batch of A4s (mallard etc) being the biggest problems yet, and same goes with the A3s

You're right everybody makes mistakes

There are always gonna be some failures.

The level of failure is dependent on the quality of design and production.

My beef is that we seem to ready to accept more failures for locos in our wonderful hobby than is reasonable and acceptable compared to any other consumer product. Why is that?

Bob Austin

I must say that in the past few years  I've had a Q1 a Voyager and then three St Ives Bay 153s all failures  Kernow were absolutely brilliant with thier service the final St Ives 153 must have been sent as replacement before they received the faulty one, all these were Dapol BUT I did buy a Farish Warship that only had three axle drive caused by a missing washer this was replaced by Farish the same week . I am very careful with all my stock in fact a lot stays on the layout all the time the newest I keep in the original boxes.
The Dapol faults were the little circuit boards one of the 153s actualy melted the insulation tape and the Voyager the same I now run the motor in that direct from the pickups with no problems.
Bob