Hi all,
I dont know the stages of the process from concept through to sale of models.
Is " approved for tooling " an early or late stage I wonder ?

For example DJM has said in his timeline page, early May, that the J94 has been approved for tooling,
so might it be on sale soon - or up to 2years off ?

It's a bit of a length of string question I suppose !
but I cant decide if I should wait for that one or get something else to start to play   model with.

I would think that "approved for tooling" is the go ahead for the manufacture of the final model. Assuming that the first run looks OK, they should be on the shelves soon after.

Quote from: Malc on August 03, 2014, 01:16:49 PM
I would think that "approved for tooling" is the go ahead for the manufacture of the final model. Assuming that the first run looks OK, they should be on the shelves soon after.

I would say "approved for tooling" means that all the CAD design work has been signed off and "metal cutting" can then commence. The tooling for the 00 J94, which Dave has always said will be his first release is in fact already cut (See RM Web). However I would think there is still some way to go till production even for that.

Next will be a first Engineering Prototype for further evaluation and corrections as necessary. After that and following any corrections detail such as rivets also gets added and a second EP is produced.

Also, alongside this there will be a need to prove the mechanism with many hours of testing before that can be signed off

Assuming that is all ok, then things will progress to artwork and decorated samples being produced, again evaluated and corrected if needed.

Then final sign off for production.

I am sure someone will step in and correct me if I have missed anything, but even the 00 J94 is, I suspect still likely to be a few months off.

Regards

Roy

Quote from: Roy L S on August 03, 2014, 03:23:25 PM

Quote from: Malc on August 03, 2014, 01:16:49 PM
I would think that "approved for tooling" is the go ahead for the manufacture of the final model. Assuming that the first run looks OK, they should be on the shelves soon after.

I would say "approved for tooling" means that all the CAD design work has been signed off and "metal cutting" can then commence. The tooling for the 00 J94, which Dave has always said will be his first release is in fact already cut (See RM Web). However I would think there is still some way to go till production even for that.

Next will be a first Engineering Prototype for further evaluation and corrections as necessary. After that and following any corrections detail such as rivets also gets added and a second EP is produced.

Also, alongside this there will be a need to prove the mechanism with many hours of testing before that can be signed off

Assuming that is all ok, then things will progress to artwork and decorated samples being produced, again evaluated and corrected if needed.

Then final sign off for production.

I am sure someone will step in and correct me if I have missed anything, but even the 00 J94 is, I suspect still likely to be a few months off.

Regards

Roy

Roy I suspect that you are spot on, CADs are signed off but that does not mean metal cutting has started, but it may have. From then on your schedule is spot on.

To be honest I think the manufacturers should just state a month when the items will in the shops for sale...not in a boat/container/1st cad/10th cad/artists impression/local warehouse or whatever.. They should know their business well enough to forecast a delivery lead time allowing for normal tweaks in design/shipping times etc.. At the moment the dates are so inaccurate that it makes deciding whether to wait for a new model or go with something already available difficult.. Its really poor in my view and reflects the lack of major players in British N gauge. Bachmann do now appear to be starting to be realistic about what they can actually deliver in the next 6 months

I think that reflects a lack of understanding of reality.

If you do the initial design for a model and the testing and first tool cutting and there is an error then you can either keep your schedule or ship a correct model. Even working in small volumes entirely within the EU with 3D printing, etching and related technology for kits a minor screwup can knock you back two months while accidentally getting the prototype right (which happens now and then) suddenly finds you two months early.

For RTR, half way around the world with production slots shared with other vendors it's not practicable to accurately predict dates product will be finished. Well not unless you'd rather get crap on time rather than correct with less delivery accuracy.

I know some production systems work on the "crap on time" basis but I'm kind of happy model railways isn't usually one of them.


Alan

Quote from: sparky on August 03, 2014, 03:39:09 PM
.. Its really poor in my view and reflects the lack of major players in British N gauge. Bachmann do now appear to be starting to be realistic about what they can actually deliver in the next 6 months

If Bachmann Industries Europe isn't a major player in British N Gauge then I do not know who is??

Don't get me wrong..I think both the bachfar and dapol products are really good and i would not want them rushed through if things were not quite right...I just simply think they should keep the promises they make...after all if they can't keep a delivery promise of their own making why make it in the first place... Competition wise unless non European manufacturers were in  British n gauge then we really just have 2...please don't think I am naive in product design as I have been a product development manager in the steel and automotive industries and understand problems happen but they have to get a better grip on things and as I have said previously managing complex supply chains is normal today..I will let you all get back to your djm debate about some sort of steamer thing!

Quote from: sparky on August 03, 2014, 07:00:12 PM
Don't get me wrong..I think both the bachfar and dapol products are really good and i would not want them rushed through if things were not quite right...I just simply think they should keep the promises they make...

There are too many factors outside their control for that ever to be a realistic proposition. Their release dates are not "promises". They simply reflect their own currents plans.

However most plans fail to survive contact with the enemy (or in this case, far eastern manufacturing).

I do not know anything about the complexities of manufacture which I imagine are enormous if products are made in China etc. but being an "ancient britain" I like to have a look at and get informative opinions of new products before I purchase - The N Gauge forum has always given me info as to what is good and what you should be careful about buying. It must be difficult for manufacturers who have to out-source production - I suppose they are a bit cornered when there is not much control over production times and availability.

The problem with waiting for feedback from any forum/magazine etc is that by the time you have read reviews and made your decision, the item may have sold out and you have to wait for the next batch, if there is one.
I guess some things are not in the control of Dapol/Farish/DJM if someone bumps their production slot should something more juicy comes along

I agree - I have had the already sold out experience a few times - the problem with buying unsighted is that we become the guinea pigs for the suppliers/manufacturers ! Regards - Keith.

Quote from: EtchedPixels on August 03, 2014, 03:43:43 PM
I think that reflects a lack of un :no:derstanding of reality.
For RTR, half way around the world with production slots shared with other vendors it's not practicable to accurately predict dates product will be finished. Well not unless you'd rather get crap on time rather than correct with less delivery accuracy.

I know some production systems work on the "crap on time" basis but I'm kind of happy model railways isn't usually one of them.

Alan

Personally (as much as I can`t wait for some new items) I would rather have one that looks right - not neccessarilly be 100% accurate - and runs smoothly at a reasonable speed for the prototype, than a hurried item that gives no satisfaction in either department.   So come on Dave, get a move on - but get it right.

There were samples of the OO J94 at RMWebLive. I gather it will be available soon.

I asked Dave what the situation was with his N gauge models (not specifically the J94) and he replied that they were ready to cut metal on the tooling, but that further progress was waiting on the J94 (OO) generating funds to enable him to move forward.

Quote from: Nick on September 21, 2014, 02:58:13 PM
There were samples of the OO J94 at RMWebLive.

Hornby Magazine have posted a picture on Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/hornbymagazine/photos/pb.129246407114953.-2207520000.1411322187./805525879486999/?type=1&theater

Best regards
Michael