Prices in Germany seem more reasonable as you might expect.  Their Kriegslok 2-10-0 is listed around 230 Euros, say £180.  That's a lot of money, but it's a lot of loco. Even so, I doubt the British market would stand that right now, but the way things are going in China that price gap is going to start narrowing a lot in the next few years.  82 million Germans vs 63 million Brits - I agree it's a larger market for sure.

Do Germans have more disposable income to spend on hobbies?

How much does the high cost of rent/mortgages/fuel here limit spending on trains?

The Fleischmann factory in Arad is ISO9001 certified.

Best regards
Michael

I'm not sure now, but a lot of Fleischmann stuff doesn't seem that sophisticated - basic 3 pole motors (albeit decent runners), fairly deep flanged wheels etc - a lot of UK outline models are way ahead now in terms of fidelity IMHO.

Cheers,
Alan

Good points there about Fleischmann guys. I think it's a bigger market not just because they have  20 million more people (also don't forget the Swiss and the Austrians) but I think they most probably have a more "traditional hobby market" and more people are interested in model trains. Also I do believe that they have more spare time and most certainly more disposable income with more comprehensive pensions for retired people (a key market segment) and don't forget that a lot of houses in Germany are built with cellars of 4-5 rooms! Perfect for railway modelling if insulated properly 

I was in Innsbruck last month - had a look in a toy shop at the Fleischmann models and was very impressed. The models were more expensive yes, but I think as Karhedron said, you get what you pay for.

It's nice to see that they still produce the models in Germany and I think by doing so they have kept their ethos of quality. I'm not saying that Grafar in Poole was top quality but I just somehow feel that moving production to China moves you away from your core customer market. I was saddened when they closed the factory in Poole and it was at that time that I decided to collect British built models. Complete nostalgia I know, but hey ho!

Just a quick take on the spares. I suspect that the Germans take the view that spares are integral to a product, in that "it's part of the product". I don't think they would see it as logical to sell a model train that you cold not get spares for.

Even here in Dubai I can drive 10 minutes down the road to the Bosch service centre to get components (only really needed to buy bags - but you can get other bits I think) for my 30 pound vacuum cleaner. If they don't have what you want then they order it in for you. I just think that that is part of their culture. Sadly I think in the UK we have gone down the "contracting out" route and whilst products might seem nice and shiny in the shops, I just don't feel there's much support behind the products.

Will you be able to get spares for a 20 year old Cantonese built model? I'm not so sure. The factory will most probably have moved on to producing plastic ding dongs, or whatever else by then.

Cheers

Dan

Quote from: Michael Shillabeer on June 20, 2014, 12:05:02 PM
Do Germans have more disposable income to spend on hobbies?

How much does the high cost of rent/mortgages/fuel here limit spending on trains?

The Fleischmann factory in Arad is ISO9001 certified.

Best regards
Michael

This is where it gets complicated, a couple of years ago German disposable income was about 20% higher
than UK, however all sorts of things get involved, housing costs, childcare, energy, healthcare, variations in
the Euro rate, about the only directly comparable factor is the VAT rate, UK 20%, Germany 19%.

We have friends in Germany and have just spent the best part of two weeks there. I've been going there since a child and in my opinion (but admittedly someone who grew up in South London), my opinion is that the standard of living is much higher than in the UK (I know there are statistics on paper but I just don't see that with my own eyes).

That said, I have not been to all parts of the UK (nor Germany for that matter) so I cannot say this with complete authority. Anyway, I think the debate is not just about who has more money (it doesn't detract from enjoying our hobby - but I'm sure it has something to do with quality issues). I just cannot imagine the Germans putting up with something not running out if the box, and I think their culture is such that Fleischmann WOULD do something about it if you wrote to them about a quality issue. That's just my opinion guys.

The Germans seem to build quality, or they don't build it at all.

Dan

Note Dan's posts .Been to Germany a few times, holidays and visiting relatives (ex pats),
their standard of living is higher than the UK , although the East lags behind a bit.
The Germans have usually excelled in engineering, electricals, chemicals etc and their
GDP is much higher than the UK. Also I don't think they suffered so much in the banking
crisis a few years ago and their economy is not driven by house prices and high street
booms. A fairly complex situation to relate to model rail products!

Quote from: DesertHound on June 20, 2014, 12:46:37 PM
We have friends in Germany and have just spent the best part of two weeks there. I've been going there since a child and in my opinion (but admittedly someone who grew up in South London), my opinion is that the standard of living is much higher than in the UK (I know there are statistics on paper but I just don't see that with my own eyes).

That said, I have not been to all parts of the UK (nor Germany for that matter) so I cannot say this with complete authority. Anyway, I think the debate is not just about who has more money (it doesn't detract from enjoying our hobby - but I'm sure it has something to do with quality issues). I just cannot imagine the Germans putting up with something not running out if the box, and I think their culture is such that Fleischmann WOULD do something about it if you wrote to them about a quality issue. That's just my opinion guys.

The Germans seem to build quality, or they don't build it at all.

Dan

Just to give some perspective on the matter,

I collect N scale Taurus electric locomotives in all the advertising liveries.
They are made bt Kato, Minitrix and Fleischmann, and very nice they are too, with almost perfect printing and detail.

In the last 18 months I have purchased 5 brand new loco's, 3 being Fleischmann and 2 being Kato.
The Kato ran as you would expect.
The Fleischmann, however, went back.
1 did not move whatsoever
1 growled and barely moved and the other screamed and waddled to derailment.

Yes they were replaced by fully working versions which ran well but it's still a 100% failure rate.

Fleischmann had these made in one of the former Eastern block factories I believe.

Like I said, just to put perspective on things, and the Fleischmann cost a total £500!

Cheers
Dave

Interesting Dave, very interesting!

Hi guys - did a reply on here about 40 mins ago , to find just now that it had disappeared into the ether completely , so.....firstly , interested in the socio-economic comparisons (which I agree with , having spent quite a lot of time in Berlin & bits of the old east Germany after reunification , until 2009) . This is in danger of becoming quite an intellectual (but still meandering !) thread . Ok , points I wanted to make were centred around this view - that the Poole era was NEVER anything like a "golden era" for us UK N gauge modellers IMHO . We simply had nowhere else to go for UK outline N stuff . As soon as Bachmann took over & we started getting Chinese made product through , there was an immediate & sustained improvement in quality , right up to this day . Dapol entered the fray , & gave us even more choice , likewise Union Mills - yes , there ARE sometimes/often (depending on who you listen to)  issues with build quality , reliability , spare parts , customer service etc BUT BUT BUT I would argue that THIS is our golden era , right now (warts n all !!)
                   When I started trawling Ebay for N gauge items 12 years ago , there were just over 1000 listed - all eras , all countries . Now there are 20,000 N gauge items on there . Choice ? It's mind boggling ! After taking early retirement in 2002 & deciding to go down the N gauge route (only previous model railway experience was when I was 10 or 11  with table top Triang 00) after a few months I went to the one of the 4 yearly N Gauge Association Exhibitions (2003 ?), spent time watching the Lenz Compact being demonstrated & came away a (totally non technical) DCC convert . Now I realise that DCC isn't to everyone's taste , & never will be , BUT you have to admit that the choice available now to DCC N gaugers is bewildering . Back then in 2003 it was a Eureka moment to find someone who could hard wire a decoder for you if you weren't confident to do it yourself (long before the luxury of 6 pin decoders) .
                Also , we should never lose sight of the fact that compared with 00 we are always going to be a bit of a fringe market , which has its implications for how big a shout we have in the grand scheme of things . But then what do I know Here endeth the sermon- best wishes TO ALL !

Quote from: DJM Dave on June 20, 2014, 01:11:09 PM

Quote from: DesertHound on June 20, 2014, 12:46:37 PM
We have friends in Germany and have just spent the best part of two weeks there. I've been going there since a child and in my opinion (but admittedly someone who grew up in South London), my opinion is that the standard of living is much higher than in the UK (I know there are statistics on paper but I just don't see that with my own eyes).

That said, I have not been to all parts of the UK (nor Germany for that matter) so I cannot say this with complete authority. Anyway, I think the debate is not just about who has more money (it doesn't detract from enjoying our hobby - but I'm sure it has something to do with quality issues). I just cannot imagine the Germans putting up with something not running out if the box, and I think their culture is such that Fleischmann WOULD do something about it if you wrote to them about a quality issue. That's just my opinion guys.

The Germans seem to build quality, or they don't build it at all.

Dan

Just to give some perspective on the matter,

I collect N scale Taurus electric locomotives in all the advertising liveries.
They are made bt Kato, Minitrix and Fleischmann, and very nice they are too, with almost perfect printing and detail.

In the last 18 months I have purchased 5 brand new loco's, 3 being Fleischmann and 2 being Kato.
The Kato ran as you would expect.
The Fleischmann, however, went back.
1 did not move whatsoever
1 growled and barely moved and the other screamed and waddled to derailment.

Yes they were replaced by fully working versions which ran well but it's still a 100% failure rate.

Fleischmann had these made in one of the former Eastern block factories I believe.

Like I said, just to put perspective on things, and the Fleischmann cost a total £500!

Cheers
Dave

The thing there is those Fleischmann locos were purely QC failures and once replaced they worked out of the box. So it's not good news that Fleischmann locos are suffering failures, but they're not design issues just problems with duff ones getting through that weren't made to spec.

The issues I (and apparently rather a lot of other people) have had with Dapol and some Farish locos is that even when you get a 'good' one that's been assembled to spec, you still have to fettle it to make it run reliably, or repair it at a much more frequent rate than a Fleischmann or Arnold loco.

Price isn't really an issue with quality control and design issues. If the factory isn't equipped to build the product as designed or test and catch the problem ones, you'll get failures getting through to customers and if the designers of the original model and manufacturing process are missing something then the factory issues will only add to the problems.

Quote from: Zwilnik on June 20, 2014, 02:28:39 PM

Quote from: DJM Dave on June 20, 2014, 01:11:09 PM

Quote from: DesertHound on June 20, 2014, 12:46:37 PM
We have friends in Germany and have just spent the best part of two weeks there. I've been going there since a child and in my opinion (but admittedly someone who grew up in South London), my opinion is that the standard of living is much higher than in the UK (I know there are statistics on paper but I just don't see that with my own eyes).

That said, I have not been to all parts of the UK (nor Germany for that matter) so I cannot say this with complete authority. Anyway, I think the debate is not just about who has more money (it doesn't detract from enjoying our hobby - but I'm sure it has something to do with quality issues). I just cannot imagine the Germans putting up with something not running out if the box, and I think their culture is such that Fleischmann WOULD do something about it if you wrote to them about a quality issue. That's just my opinion guys.

The Germans seem to build quality, or they don't build it at all.

Dan

Just to give some perspective on the matter,

I collect N scale Taurus electric locomotives in all the advertising liveries.
They are made bt Kato, Minitrix and Fleischmann, and very nice they are too, with almost perfect printing and detail.

In the last 18 months I have purchased 5 brand new loco's, 3 being Fleischmann and 2 being Kato.
The Kato ran as you would expect.
The Fleischmann, however, went back.
1 did not move whatsoever
1 growled and barely moved and the other screamed and waddled to derailment.

Yes they were replaced by fully working versions which ran well but it's still a 100% failure rate.

Fleischmann had these made in one of the former Eastern block factories I believe.

Like I said, just to put perspective on things, and the Fleischmann cost a total £500!

Cheers
Dave

The thing there is those Fleischmann locos were purely QC failures and once replaced they worked out of the box. So it's not good news that Fleischmann locos are suffering failures, but they're not design issues just problems with duff ones getting through that weren't made to spec.

The issues I (and apparently rather a lot of other people) have had with Dapol and some Farish locos is that even when you get a 'good' one that's been assembled to spec, you still have to fettle it to make it run reliably, or repair it at a much more frequent rate than a Fleischmann or Arnold loco.

Price isn't really an issue with quality control and design issues. If the factory isn't equipped to build the product as designed or test and catch the problem ones, you'll get failures getting through to customers and if the designers of the original model and manufacturing process are missing something then the factory issues will only add to the problems.

Don't forget the costs either. £500 for 100% failure over 3 loco's.
I'd venture to suggest that if a failure at £100 isn't regarded as good, then 3 at £500 is atrocious!

Indeed, as you quote, 'if the factory isn't equipped etc ' then why charge top rate for 3 loco's you couldn't even QC properly?

Price should always be an issue with quality control.
If I pay more money I want less chances it will go wrong, and I'll play even more merry hell when it does, as opposed to something that we think is expensive but in the whole scheme of things isn't when compared to others, for what your getting nowadays. :-)

Cheers
Dave

Quote from: Bigric on June 20, 2014, 02:07:36 PM
Hi guys - did a reply on here about 40 mins ago , to find just now that it had disappeared into the ether completely , so.....firstly , interested in the socio-economic comparisons (which I agree with , having spent quite a lot of time in Berlin & bits of the old east Germany after reunification , until 2009) . This is in danger of becoming quite an intellectual (but still meandering !) thread . Ok , points I wanted to make were centred around this view - that the Poole era was NEVER anything like a "golden era" for us UK N gauge modellers IMHO . We simply had nowhere else to go for UK outline N stuff . As soon as Bachmann took over & we started getting Chinese made product through , there was an immediate & sustained improvement in quality , right up to this day . Dapol entered the fray , & gave us even more choice , likewise Union Mills - yes , there ARE sometimes/often (depending on who you listen to)  issues with build quality , reliability , spare parts , customer service etc BUT BUT BUT I would argue that THIS is our golden era , right now (warts n all !!)
                   When I started trawling Ebay for N gauge items 12 years ago , there were just over 1000 listed - all eras , all countries . Now there are 20,000 N gauge items on there . Choice ? It's mind boggling ! After taking early retirement in 2002 & deciding to go down the N gauge route (only previous model railway experience was when I was 10 or 11  with table top Triang 00) after a few months I went to the one of the 4 yearly N Gauge Association Exhibitions (2003 ?), spent time watching the Lenz Compact being demonstrated & came away a (totally non technical) DCC convert . Now I realise that DCC isn't to everyone's taste , & never will be , BUT you have to admit that the choice available now to DCC N gaugers is bewildering . Back then in 2003 it was a Eureka moment to find someone who could hard wire a decoder for you if you weren't confident to do it yourself (long before the luxury of 6 pin decoders) .
                Also , we should never lose sight of the fact that compared with 00 we are always going to be a bit of a fringe market , which has its implications for how big a shout we have in the grand scheme of things . But then what do I know Here endeth the sermon- best wishes TO ALL !

Bigric

I think you have brought a balance to the conversation, which I would pretty much agree with. In relative terms N gauge has gotten better and I suspect it will continue to do so. That doesn't mean (and I'm not quoting you here) that we should accept locos not working out of the box and design flaws. Like I said before, it has happened to me on one of the few BachFar's I have. I guess it's just a process of continual improvement.

Coming back to my earlier point though, I just feel (and this probably goes for pretty much everything, not just model trains) that we are going down the road of "plug and play, and then throw away". For example, an 08 shunter I have from Bachman, after unscrewing the body, I only managed to get one screw back on, since I just couldn't get the rest to screw in (due to foot steps or something being in the way). I just don't feel they are made to be tinkered with anymore. Slight variation on the topic thread I know, and maybe not a concern to most people, but that and the (possible difficulty of obtaining enough) spares and it's not as appealing to me as the old locos.

Just my tuppence worth. I've made that point enough now so I'll let others take the conversation forward 

Dan

Quote from: DJM Dave on June 20, 2014, 02:41:33 PM

Quote from: Zwilnik on June 20, 2014, 02:28:39 PM

Quote from: DJM Dave on June 20, 2014, 01:11:09 PM

Quote from: DesertHound on June 20, 2014, 12:46:37 PM
We have friends in Germany and have just spent the best part of two weeks there. I've been going there since a child and in my opinion (but admittedly someone who grew up in South London), my opinion is that the standard of living is much higher than in the UK (I know there are statistics on paper but I just don't see that with my own eyes).

That said, I have not been to all parts of the UK (nor Germany for that matter) so I cannot say this with complete authority. Anyway, I think the debate is not just about who has more money (it doesn't detract from enjoying our hobby - but I'm sure it has something to do with quality issues). I just cannot imagine the Germans putting up with something not running out if the box, and I think their culture is such that Fleischmann WOULD do something about it if you wrote to them about a quality issue. That's just my opinion guys.

The Germans seem to build quality, or they don't build it at all.

Dan

Just to give some perspective on the matter,

I collect N scale Taurus electric locomotives in all the advertising liveries.
They are made bt Kato, Minitrix and Fleischmann, and very nice they are too, with almost perfect printing and detail.

In the last 18 months I have purchased 5 brand new loco's, 3 being Fleischmann and 2 being Kato.
The Kato ran as you would expect.
The Fleischmann, however, went back.
1 did not move whatsoever
1 growled and barely moved and the other screamed and waddled to derailment.

Yes they were replaced by fully working versions which ran well but it's still a 100% failure rate.

Fleischmann had these made in one of the former Eastern block factories I believe.

Like I said, just to put perspective on things, and the Fleischmann cost a total £500!

Cheers
Dave

The thing there is those Fleischmann locos were purely QC failures and once replaced they worked out of the box. So it's not good news that Fleischmann locos are suffering failures, but they're not design issues just problems with duff ones getting through that weren't made to spec.

The issues I (and apparently rather a lot of other people) have had with Dapol and some Farish locos is that even when you get a 'good' one that's been assembled to spec, you still have to fettle it to make it run reliably, or repair it at a much more frequent rate than a Fleischmann or Arnold loco.

Price isn't really an issue with quality control and design issues. If the factory isn't equipped to build the product as designed or test and catch the problem ones, you'll get failures getting through to customers and if the designers of the original model and manufacturing process are missing something then the factory issues will only add to the problems.

Don't forget the costs either. £500 for 100% failure over 3 loco's.
I'd venture to suggest that if a failure at £100 isn't regarded as good, then 3 at £500 is atrocious!

Indeed, as you quote, 'if the factory isn't equipped etc ' then why charge top rate for 3 loco's you couldn't even QC properly?

Price should always be an issue with quality control.
If I pay more money I want less chances it will go wrong, and I'll play even more merry hell when it does, as opposed to something that we think is expensive but in the whole scheme of things isn't when compared to others, for what your getting nowadays. :-)

Cheers
Dave

Sorry Dave, should have been a bit more clear with what I said on price. What I meant was that lower or higher prices in themselves don't change how well the model is designed, assembled or QC'd. A high price *should* indicate that the models are well designed, well built and checked before they leave the factory, but unfortunately this isn't the case in model railway engines.

My point about Fleischmann is that they seem to still be getting the design element right and (usually from what I've seen) the manufacturing and QC seem better than the 2 main British manufacturers, but any failure of QC (especially a cluster) will really annoy a customer and get them a bad rep, so it's normally where a manufacturer should really put some effort in.

If QC ends up costing too much (too many failures not getting out of the door) it's indicative of a design or manufacturing floor and efforts need to be put in there, rather than just pretending it isn't an issue and reducing the QC.

Quote from: Michael Shillabeer on June 20, 2014, 12:05:02 PM

The Fleischmann factory in Arad is ISO9001 certified.

Best regards
Michael

Now that's a good point. ISO9001 requires that the manufacturer has all the Quality insurance systems in place that I have been talking about - including control of subcontractors. Again it costs money to get registered but if the system that has been registered is effective then the Company will save money in the long term and improve quality of product to the customer.

Bob Austin