Quote from: DesertHound on June 18, 2014, 05:28:39 PM
We could have Dr Al, Newport Nobby and, hmmm, you pick the other one, sitting in their comfy chairs with wads of cash and the likes of you and I coming in and saying ... "I propose ..."

Could you imagine - the response to mine (with a heavy Scottish accent or twerky Deborah Meaden would be "I'm sorry, there's no market for your stephenson's Rocket, you're prices are way out, and frankly, your quality control is cr*p!" 

Sorry ... I have my moments!

Dan

Not sure I should be placed in the same exalted company as Dr Al
Rather than design/produce crap, I just post it on the NGF

Hi Belstone

Please do not apologise, I think this thread is developing in a thoroughly positive and constructive way, but if one of the Moderators could indulge us, maybe the more recent postings need to go under a new heading like: -

"Existing and Potential Steam Loco kits, Possible Chassis Options"

I do concur with Alan that the NGS potentially has the "clout" to secure an order of 504 pieces on behalf of it's members but it isn't going to happen so developing something up to date and potentially viable at much lower volumes does make sense.

I wonder if Dave J has any thoughts he might share with us if he reads this?

Roy

I notice first off there is a poll , its a shame you can only tick one square .

alan

Quote from: Dr Al on June 18, 2014, 05:57:24 PM

Quote from: Roy L S on June 18, 2014, 04:54:00 PM
If the tooling still exists it is possible they may do a batch I guess, after all money is money, but minimum order quantity for any of their stuff is no less than 504 units.

This is the kind of thing the NGS should be looking at keeping an eye on, and championing any cause to keep the kits able to be built - there are now a lot of kit locos out there that require chassis that can't actually be bought.

The NGS have tried approaching Farish before without success. Whilst they will do commissions of finished models, they refuse outright to do runs of unfinished models or parts. When the NGS commission the SR Queen Mary brake van, they tried to commission a load of spare bogies for kit builders but Farish would not do it. They said it was not their policy to supply parts (despite the fact that Bachmann happily do so in 00  ).

As somebody who served an apprenticeship as a Toolmaker and then graduated to a Quality Control Engineer in the Aero Engine industry, here is my take on the situation. In my opinion both Farish and Dapol are as good or bad as one another.
The main problem is they do not make anything in house, they rely on subcontractors on the other side of the world, with the problems of vastly different time zones and a huge language barrier both internationally, internally and a different work and business ethic.
In my opinion this is the root of most of the problems:
It takes a long time to build up a good reputation, this can be lost overnight by an indifferent sub contractor.
If a larger/more profitable order comes in this takes priority over yours, so the delivery date slips.
From the faults that occur, these can be put down to bad production practices, e.g not letting the die cool sufficiently before ejecting the moulding hence distortion.
A total lack of testing, two uninsulated wheels on the same axle.
Not holding tolerances and poor assembly, two identical locos, one whisper quiet, one more noise than a coffee grinder.
Poor or non existent inspection and indifferent work force, wrong side frames on a class 66 so the steps don't line up with the doors
One company told me that 50% of the workers do not return after the Chinese New Year so half the workforce needs to be trained from scratch.
Overseas manufacture seems to lead to a lack of spares, you cant nip down to the production line and take a part out of a bin, its on the other side of the world.
With CAD and CNC machining and computer controlled checking I fail to see how such faults can occur, or are these practices non existent in the factories that produce the trains?
Forty odd years ago we could hold tolerances of plus or minus .0002" on a jig borer and not a CNC machine or computer in site.
Dapol and Farish seem to have gone overboard on unnecessary detailing instead of concentrating on  quality and reliability, maybe moving production back to the UK is the answer. As for cost if Hattons can sell a Colas 66 for £59 including VAT whilst others are asking £100 what is the  price  to Farish's warehouse door.

Geoff

Quote from: geoffc on June 18, 2014, 09:37:25 PM
.
Dapol and Farish seem to have gone overboard on unnecessary detailing instead of concentrating on  quality and reliability, maybe moving production back to the UK is the answer. As for cost if Hattons can sell a Colas 66 for £59 including VAT whilst others are asking £100 what is the  price  to Farish's warehouse door.

Geoff

With respect Geoff, whether detailing is "unnecessary" or not is subjective and no more than a matter of opinion. It should not be necessary to trade this off for better performance/reliability and nor in my experience does it. I have found without exception (9 locos so far) that with the new coreless motor mechanisms the latest generation of Farish with all their fine (and in my opinion desirable) detail run just as well as they look.

Regards

Roy

Hello all,

For avoidance of doubt, the NGS has in negotiations repeatedly asked about the possibility of purchasing unpainted models or spares (eg bogies) and always been rebuffed.

Farish DO keep spares and maintain a repair facility at Barwell; and some spares are available from BR Lines.

I also think it's unlikely Farish consider the needs of third party kit manufacturers when deciding whether to retire older chassis, and really why should they?

cheers

Ben A.

Quote from: Ben A on June 19, 2014, 12:06:33 AM

Hello all,

For avoidance of doubt, the NGS has in negotiations repeatedly asked about the possibility of purchasing unpainted models or spares (eg bogies) and always been rebuffed.

Farish DO keep spares and maintain a repair facility at Barwell; and some spares are available from BR Lines.

I also think it's unlikely Farish consider the needs of third party kit manufacturers when deciding whether to retire older chassis, and really why should they?

cheers

Ben A.

Hi Ben

Thank you for clarifying.

Only were there a solid commercial reason that worked for Bachmann could I see any prospect of them being persuaded to produce more of the old style chassis. This would mean a bulk buyer being prepared to take the whole run. If this were not the NGS I think kills the whole idea stone dead unless there is another benefactor out there with deep pockets who is prepared to take a risk and tie up his/her cash for a long time (unlikely!).

Nobody can expect Bachamann to be in the remotest bit interested in supporting the needs of the Third Party kit market unless it would also support/develop their own.  If it even does presently then it must surely be only in an extremely limited way?

This then moves the question on. While we may still be able to pick up some second-hand chassis for a while yet, will the lack of readily availability of "off the shelf" chassis ultimately kill the said N Gauge loco kit market? I think the lack of any new traditional cast whitemetal ones suggest it already is.

Indeed with changing trends in the Market, the advent of 3D printing and more items becoming available RTR is there still much of a Market for such "traditional" kits out there or is a new approach needed?

One for another thread...to be continued..

Regards

Roy

Perhaps Dave Jones would be worth approaching? The cost of tooling up a completely new chassis might be prohibitive but he is doing an N gauge J94 with other locos due to be announced next month.

Unlike Farish, he might be willing/able to produce modest runs of spare chassis. Just a thought.

Quote from: Ben A on June 19, 2014, 12:06:33 AM
For avoidance of doubt, the NGS has in negotiations repeatedly asked about the possibility of purchasing unpainted models or spares (eg bogies) and always been rebuffed.

Maybe the problem is in the word "asked".

Why does the NGS not put this as a requirement to the tender; eg a run of 250 (or whatever) full items, a further 250 unpainted bodies, 250 chassis, etc ?  Issue to all the mfrs, & see what you get back - then start dealing with the best bidder on the tender.

After all who is the customer ... ?  It sure ain't GraFar, so why let them dictate what you, the customer, can have ?

Hello again,

Just to spell it out...

We've asked, begged, tried to cajole, offered to buy as many as needed to make it viable, told them we'd pay a premium, threatened to go elsewhere etc etc and they are of the steadfast view that while they do produce a few selected spares to enable them to repair models returned to them, and to supply their chosen spares distributor (BR Lines) they are, in N at least, SOLELY in the market of supplying fully finished RTR items to everyone else.

cheers

Ben A.

What about approaching Union Mills for chassis, or aren't their's suitable?

Ben,

Is it a case of keeping on at them? I mean in the past we've been told many things weren't viable in N, and yet now we have them, e.g. spoked steam loco wheels.

Can the NGS order spares like bogies through the approved spares supplier (i.e. BR Lines) in order to get what it needs?

Seems a bit like madness when there are folks/organisations willing to spend money!

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: silly moo on June 19, 2014, 09:55:02 AM
What about approaching Union Mills for chassis, or aren't their's suitable?

Whether they are suitable would depend on the prototype. As tender driven, they are not good for tank engines. Also, in terms of detail, there is no advantage over 2nd hand Farish.

I've started a new thread, 'Bodgers and fiddlers' to discuss the whole issue of loco kits and chassis etc.