Quote from: austinbob on June 18, 2014, 12:58:57 PM
However, even if there have been improvements in N gauge over the years it does not alter the notion that when you buy a new product it should work properly. No ifs or buts.. it should just work.

I totally agree with this. Mechanically these are very very simple so there shouldn't be so many issues.

Quote from: austinbob on June 18, 2014, 12:58:57 PM
If you bought a new television and the sound had a hum in the background you wouldn't accept it. If you bought a toaster and it stopped toasting after the first slice you wouldn't accept it. You send the stuff back for replacement or money back and may not use the same suppliers again.

Yes, this is true. Where our market differs is that it is so small by comparison. The companies in question probably only actually have one or two designers, one or two folk actually doing the research etc. Also since the runs are so small (and often of unique liveries) it can be the case that you simply can't keep sending back for replacement as you might be unable to get a replacement once stocks are depleted.

Quote from: austinbob on June 18, 2014, 12:58:57 PM
So why are we so forgiving about N gauge locos? Many people cannot or don't want to fiddle around with something to get it to work properly - and why should they have to. Bear in mind that if you do fiddle around with stuff then you are invalidating the warranty. So, even if you have the technical ability to dismantle and reassemble locos you are risking the outcome of having a piece of junk if your efforts are unsuccessful.

I think there are a few reasons for this:

- this is the kind of people we are - builders/modellers etc. Whilst many don't like stripping down models, many really do and actually enjoy taking an iffy model and getting it running perfectly. I know I do. For me I also find it far more efficient than sending back only to potentially receive a model with similar issues. I know that's probably a very minority stance as I've built up many years experience (and hence confidence) in tearing things down.
- the above reason for availability
- beyond the cases of models that don't work right, there is the case of tuning up models that do work and improving their performance above everyone elses stock model.

Personally I don't advocate my approach to others - it works for me, but generally for those who don't have confidence or knowhow to fettle locos the right course is to send them back or to the authorised repairer.

Best,
Alan

Quote from: belstone on June 18, 2014, 11:26:26 AM
[Thought you might be interested, Roy.  At the moment I'm just at the 'imagining' stage, but my thinking so far is:

Etched side frames with a 3D printed spacer block between them, locating pegs on the block to keep it all square.

Small 5 pole motor, with 2 stage gearing. The tricky bit here is to come up with a motor installation that won't poke out into the cab on 0-6-0 tender engines. Ideally I want the motor in the firebox to leave plenty of room to add weight in the boiler. And if the worm gear isn't visible under the boiler (unlike the Farish chassis), even better.  I can't find a 12V motor small enough to mount between the frames - maybe a worm on a vertical shaft in front of the centre axle, driven off a 90 degree bevel gear? Endfloat would have to be controlled very accurately.

Wheels. Ah, wheels. The biggest single stumbling block for anyone thinking of doing something like this. No question of having them made, the cost and quality issues would be horrendous. The only possible solution would be go to an RTR manufacturer that doesn't change its chassis designs every ten minutes and has a good spares service, perhaps Fleischmann. 

Chassis would have to be supplied ready-assembled due to the need to set wheel quartering and back to back accurately. Dead easy with a purpose-made tool, very tricky indeed for the home assembler.

Pickups - I have a plan for this that is so cunning I'm surprised no-one has done it before. That might be because it won't work, but I don't see why not at the moment.

I had a quick flick through Mike Sharman's 'Wheel Standards for the Modeller' last night and there must be at least a hundred 0-6-0s and 0-6-2s that have wheels between 4'6" and 5'0", and I reckon most of them have a wheelbase around 16 - 17 feet.  Question is what wheelbase and spacing would suit the greatest number of applications. Or perhaps just do a straight copy of the Farish 94xx dimensions - there are still a few kits available for it.

I can't see myself getting round to this one for a while - I'm struggling to work out how to do the artwork for the coupling etches at the moment. But maybe one day...

Depending on what people want and indeed what choices are out there, if people do not mind solid backed wheels would it be worth asking Colin Heard of Union Mills where he sources his from? We are told everything on his locos is UK sourced apart from the motor.

Regards

Roy

Quote from: Dr Al on June 18, 2014, 11:40:21 AM

Quote from: DesertHound on June 18, 2014, 11:34:47 AM
Really your call Bob, I'm not trying to start a revolution. If you do write to them then politely ask for feedback. I would be surprised if you didn't get some sort of reply then.

Personally, I can't help think Bachmann (and others no doubt) must be bored of customers telling them how to run their business. Sure, there may be good ideas, but I suspect there's a lot we don't know about the industry, and they do.

You may well be right there Alan, both in terms of whether/if they listen to customers, and also about what we don't know about the industry.

That said, if it's true, then I wouldn't be surprised to see them go the way of the Dodo. That goes for any business, not just model train makers.

On another thread we're talking about Karhedron's issue with his new Dapol. I'm flabbergasted with some of the "out of the box issues" I read on here. A business should always listen to its customers, no matter whether it thinks they are right or not.

Someone made a good point on here (or was it another thread) about these not being cottage industries but profit making organizations. Models are made to make profit, and as a customer I feel I am entitled to either be happy with my product, or spend my money on another hobby or another manufacturer. If the manufacturers don't understand that then the customers will dry up. Plenty of examples of that across all industries.

That said, Bachmann have made great strides with the detailing, which I know a lot of people on here say they are happy with. Also, I think the motion is smoother, it's just that you have to tinker with it yourself first, possibly invalidating your warranty. Either that or having the inconvenience of returning it.

Cheers

Dan

Quote from: belstone on June 18, 2014, 11:26:26 AM


Chassis would have to be supplied ready-assembled due to the need to set wheel quartering and back to back accurately. Dead easy with a purpose-made tool, very tricky indeed for the home assembler.


Or perhaps just do a straight copy of the Farish 94xx dimensions - there are still a few kits available for it.

I can't see myself getting round to this one for a while - I'm struggling to work out how to do the artwork for the coupling etches at the moment. But maybe one day...

I look forward to that day!

Personally, I think initially basing a new chassis around the Farish 94xx's one dimensionally (including fixing lugs etc) would make sense as it would refresh the viability of a number of existing kits from BHE, Langley etc. That said incorporating a lower motor would make it even more versatile.

I can't help thinking that if supply is reliable and issues such as traction weight can be overcome, it also opens up the even more exciting prospect of a new generation of 3D printed kits/models from the likes of our Very own member Steve (Atso-Cad) as well as others.

Regards

Roy

Quote from: Dr Al on June 18, 2014, 01:15:08 PM

Quote from: austinbob on June 18, 2014, 12:58:57 PM
However, even if there have been improvements in N gauge over the years it does not alter the notion that when you buy a new product it should work properly. No ifs or buts.. it should just work.

I totally agree with this. Mechanically these are very very simple so there shouldn't be so many issues.

Quote from: austinbob on June 18, 2014, 12:58:57 PM
If you bought a new television and the sound had a hum in the background you wouldn't accept it. If you bought a toaster and it stopped toasting after the first slice you wouldn't accept it. You send the stuff back for replacement or money back and may not use the same suppliers again.

Yes, this is true. Where our market differs is that it is so small by comparison. The companies in question probably only actually have one or two designers, one or two folk actually doing the research etc. Also since the runs are so small (and often of unique liveries) it can be the case that you simply can't keep sending back for replacement as you might be unable to get a replacement once stocks are depleted.

Quote from: austinbob on June 18, 2014, 12:58:57 PM
So why are we so forgiving about N gauge locos? Many people cannot or don't want to fiddle around with something to get it to work properly - and why should they have to. Bear in mind that if you do fiddle around with stuff then you are invalidating the warranty. So, even if you have the technical ability to dismantle and reassemble locos you are risking the outcome of having a piece of junk if your efforts are unsuccessful.

I think there are a few reasons for this:

- this is the kind of people we are - builders/modellers etc. Whilst many don't like stripping down models, many really do and actually enjoy taking an iffy model and getting it running perfectly. I know I do. For me I also find it far more efficient than sending back only to potentially receive a model with similar issues. I know that's probably a very minority stance as I've built up many years experience (and hence confidence) in tearing things down.
- the above reason for availability
- beyond the cases of models that don't work right, there is the case of tuning up models that do work and improving their performance above everyone elses stock model.

Personally I don't advocate my approach to others - it works for me, but generally for those who don't have confidence or knowhow to fettle locos the right course is to send them back or to the authorised repairer.

Best,
Alan

I think you summed us up quite well there Alan. We're probably quite forgiving (and sentimental) when it comes to our hobby - much more so than we would be if we were buying a "boring consumer good" for the house.

I think we've explored quite a bit here (apologies if it's all be said before - which I'm sure it has!)

I haven't got much else to say from my viewpoint unless, that is, there's something someone says that I haven't thought about.

Good discussion though!

Dan

On another note, and the direction in which this thread seems to be heading, would be quite interested to follow the discussion on this "kit idea". Could this be "NGF Models" in the making?

Considering how relatively small Bachmann/Dapol are, I can't help thinking about some of the electrical giants who made such a pig's ear of recalling dishwashers capable of burning your house down around your ears
Kinda puts things into perspective

Or the cars that get stuck in "accelerate" whilst you're driving down the motorway. Yup, there's some real shockers out there.

I'm not anti-Farish / Dapol, far from it. I just think it's healthy to have a degree of criticism (not cynicism), especially when it's warranted.

Things have gotten a lot better for the core customer - long May that continue as it will lead to a healthy n gauge scene. The worst case scenario would be that n gauge becomes even more niche, but if don't feel that is happening.

Dan

Quote from: Roy L S on June 18, 2014, 02:56:06 PM
Or perhaps just do a straight copy of the Farish 94xx dimensions - there are still a few kits available for it.

Personally, I think initially basing a new chassis around the Farish 94xx's one dimensionally (including fixing lugs etc) would make sense as it would refresh the viability of a number of existing kits from BHE, Langley etc. That said incorporating a lower motor would make it even more versatile.

If there's real need for this could Bachmann not simply be commissioned to do a run of them?

Bear in mind also that this chassis is still in production under the plastic bodied GP tank done in their base train sets...there are plenty of these about new and second hand.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: DesertHound on June 18, 2014, 03:40:13 PM
I'm not anti-Farish / Dapol, far from it. I just think it's healthy to have a degree of criticism (not cynicism), especially when it's warranted.

"Constructive criticism" I think I'd add.... 

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on June 18, 2014, 04:00:13 PM

If there's real need for this could Bachmann not simply be commissioned to do a run of them?

Bear in mind also that this chassis is still in production under the plastic bodied GP tank done in their base train sets...there are plenty of these about new and second hand.

Cheers,
Alan

Not DCC compatible, around 20:1 gearing, huge motor, scale 200mph top speed and the keeper plate on the bottom so thick it almost touches the rails... I'm oot.

Quote from: belstone on June 18, 2014, 04:14:34 PM
Not DCC compatible

Digihats for dead easy conversion...

Quote from: belstone on June 18, 2014, 04:14:34 PM
, around 20:1 gearing, huge motor,

25:1 actually, and the running is actually very good in general - the slow speed can beat some more modern designs.

Quote from: belstone on June 18, 2014, 04:14:34 PM
the keeper plate on the bottom so thick it almost touches the rails... I'm oot.

A matter of personal opinion, but can easily be replaced by NGS keeper plate instead....

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on June 18, 2014, 04:01:46 PM

Quote from: DesertHound on June 18, 2014, 03:40:13 PM
I'm not anti-Farish / Dapol, far from it. I just think it's healthy to have a degree of criticism (not cynicism), especially when it's warranted.

"Constructive criticism" I think I'd add.... 

Cheers,
Alan

Hi Alan

Just checked the Bachmann website.

That set is no longer showing as current and in fact I do not think it has been made for some time.

None of the currently listed steam locos continue to use the old chassis either.

If the tooling still exists it is possible they may do a batch I guess, after all money is money, but minimum order quantity for any of their stuff is no less than 504 units.

Regards

Roy

Quote from: belstone on June 18, 2014, 04:14:34 PM

Quote from: Dr Al on June 18, 2014, 04:00:13 PM

If there's real need for this could Bachmann not simply be commissioned to do a run of them?

Bear in mind also that this chassis is still in production under the plastic bodied GP tank done in their base train sets...there are plenty of these about new and second hand.

Cheers,
Alan

Not DCC compatible, around 20:1 gearing, huge motor, scale 200mph top speed and the keeper plate on the bottom so thick it almost touches the rails... I'm oot.

Belstone

Is that an "I'm oot" like Duncan bannatyne in Dragon's Den? 

Now you've got me thinking - we could do a model railway version! We could have Dr Al, Newport Nobby and, hmmm, you pick the other one, sitting in their comfy chairs with wads of cash and the likes of you and I coming in and saying ... "I propose ..."

Could you imagine - the response to mine (with a heavy Scottish accent or twerky Deborah Meaden would be "I'm sorry, there's no market for your stephenson's Rocket, you're prices are way out, and frankly, your quality control is cr*p!" 

Sorry ... I have my moments!

Dan

Quote from: Roy L S on June 18, 2014, 04:54:00 PM
That set is no longer showing as current and in fact I do not think it has been made for some time.

None of the currently listed steam locos continue to use the old chassis either.

I'd be surprised if it doesn't surface again in another rerun of the cheap sets - sure there's been at least 2 runs of that style set as well as a good number of runs of the 94xx.

Quote from: Roy L S on June 18, 2014, 04:54:00 PM
If the tooling still exists it is possible they may do a batch I guess, after all money is money, but minimum order quantity for any of their stuff is no less than 504 units.

This is the kind of thing the NGS should be looking at keeping an eye on, and championing any cause to keep the kits able to be built - there are now a lot of kit locos out there that require chassis that can't actually be bought. The 0-6-0 is actually easier than some as there are still a lot of them about secondhand under many different bodies. Garratts are more of an issue for example, given they need 2 black 5 chassis.

A lot of these kits may end up non-viable if no source of chassis is forthcoming.

Cheers,
Alan

Quote from: Dr Al on June 18, 2014, 05:57:24 PM

A lot of these kits may end up non-viable if no source of chassis is forthcoming.

Cheers,
Alan

If we're honest some of those old kits were a bit rubbish - oversized to fit the big motor and deep flanges, badly cast and in the worst cases little more than a scratchbuilding aid.  As Roy says, there's a lot of potential in 3D printing - especially with larger tank engines where there is plenty of room for lead weights in the side tanks. You could even look at mixed materials - something like an an 0-6-0 tender engine with whitemetal boiler and footplate for weight, 3D printed firebox, cab and tender for fine detail.  But without a consistently available mechanism built to modern standards its hard to see why anyone would take the risk of developing such a thing.  Back in the Poole days Farish sold loco chassis as a permanent part of their range, but then they only had about half a dozen different designs anyway.

I love Dan's idea of an N gauge 'Dragon's Den'.  I'm always coming up with ideas that I don't have the time or money to do anything with. Perhaps we could get Pete Waterman in on it

I seem to have rambled a long way from the original thread topic - I offer my apologies.