It annoys me that Diesel has become more expensive than Petrol. It is after all a world commodity.
On my recent trip to New Zealand, exchange rate roughly $2 to £1 this was an example of pricing.



Petrol £1.075 Diesel 75p per litre, should have put this in the angry thread! 

Wot. So you had KFC at Taupo. 

George

You need to compare the whole economy and tax system to see if it's fair.

New Zealanders get charged income tax from the first $ they earn and they end up paying higher rates quicker than we do in the UK. What they don't spend as tax at the fuel pumps has aleady been claimed by the NZ government.

It's not different to saying train ticket are less expensive in France - at the ticket machine they may be but there's more subsidy coming from central government.

Happy modelling.

Steven B.

only to be expected, really.

diesel engines used to be rattly, noisy things in vans and trucks, now you can't tell the difference and far more in cars,

so


government sees an opportunity for more dosh

fuel companies see an opportunity for more dosh

and so

kerchinggg

price goes up, govt blames fuel companies, fuel companies blame govt, motorist gets shafted anyway as usual.

or am I being a little bit cynical 

NAH

Quote from: MinZaPint on March 17, 2014, 12:16:36 PM
It annoys me that Diesel has become more expensive than Petrol. It is after all a world commodity.
On my recent trip to New Zealand, exchange rate roughly $2 to £1 this was an example of pricing.

Indeed - I remember about 10 years ago diesel always used to be a penny or two cheaper than unleaded. Doesn't affect me though, living in Belgium, here diesel is a good â,¬0.15 per litre cheaper than unleaded at, currently, about â,¬1.30 (for diesel). Needless to say I have diesel car and when I drive to the UK, I make sure the tank is full when I leave and don't have to pay UK prices. 

Minza

You bought petrol on a 'good price' day!!!

Part of the problem locally is that there is only one oil refinery in New Zealand and the  'Big Four' oil companies  (Shell, BP, Mobil and Caltex) are all shareholders in the operating company.  A monopoly is the result, and prices can be 'manipulated' to the extent that it can almost be said that this week (or example) is Shell's turn to increase prices, followed in due course by Mobil et all in rotation.   The perpetrators deny it of course...

What doesn't help is that the Government take quite an amount per lire in taxes, which inevitably increases the price at the pump.

By way of competition, a small company DOES import cheaper petrol from overseas (largely from Singapore), but it doesn't have a wide distribution network, so is largely ineffective.

BTW: When you were in Taupo did you see the C-47 (DC-3)  at the local  McDonalds?

Part of the reason that diesel costs more here is that our refineries produce less of it than they do petrol, I forget where I read this, but it was very recently. In fact, we produce so little diesel that we have to import a quantity of what is used to meet the demand, and that is reflected in the price. If we produced enough to meet the demand, it would be cheaper than it is.

Quote from: Zunnan on March 19, 2014, 02:56:44 PM
If we produced enough to meet the demand, it would be cheaper than it is.

You think I wouldn't hold my breath if I was you.

Starting with the basic, oil prices go up - immediate price rise.

Oil price goes down - we may eventually see a price drop if we are lucky.

Roger

It still doesn't avoid the fact that we're paying more to import diesel than it costs to produce at home, and that inflates the price when compared to petrol, which is produced in higher quantities here. If a surplus of diesel were produced at home (as is the case with petrol), diesel prices would be more comparable with petrol prices because you don't have the additional expence of paying the middle man to get it here.

The 'oil up - price up' argument is not related in this case, petrol prices behave in exactly the same manner but petrol costs less to get to the pumps, and that is reflected in the prices we pay. If diesel cost the same to get to the pumps as petrol does it would be the same price per L to fill your car whether it was diesel or petrol, which is cheaper than diesel currently is. OK, I will concede that if the UK suddenly started producing a surplus of diesel it would take a while for the prices to balance, but eventually they would.

Quote from: Oldun on March 19, 2014, 03:08:33 PM

Quote from: Zunnan on March 19, 2014, 02:56:44 PM
If we produced enough to meet the demand, it would be cheaper than it is.

You think I wouldn't hold my breath if I was you.

Starting with the basic, oil prices go up - immediate price rise.

Oil price goes down - we may eventually see a price drop if we are lucky.

The frustrating thing with price movements is that they are not always driven by traditional supply and demand factors.  All too often, and diesel is not the only commodity subject to this, investment banks will purchase commodity futures to drive the price up, and up..and up...with no intention of taking actual delivery of the commodities they invest in, and then when they have driven the price up sufficiently they sell and take a profit.  No harm in companies making profit but when investment banks are playing around with food and fuel to make profits I get twitchy!



Roger
[/quote]

Quote from: Oldun on March 19, 2014, 03:08:33 PM

Quote from: Zunnan on March 19, 2014, 02:56:44 PM
If we produced enough to meet the demand, it would be cheaper than it is.

You think I wouldn't hold my breath if I was you.

Starting with the basic, oil prices go up - immediate price rise.

Oil price goes down - we may eventually see a price drop if we are lucky.

Roger

As I've always understood it, the distillation process produces everything from petrol to tar and diesel is just part of the process. Can't see us importing diesel!

Quote from: Zunnan on March 19, 2014, 02:56:44 PM
Part of the reason that diesel costs more here is that our refineries produce less of it than they do petrol, I forget where I read this, but it was very recently. In fact, we produce so little diesel that we have to import a quantity of what is used to meet the demand, and that is reflected in the price. If we produced enough to meet the demand, it would be cheaper than it is.

That's right interesting, that is. Something I didn't know but does explain the difference. I wonder if this has changed over the past 10 years; I expect it has because diesel engines have become or more viable alternative in cars as class37025 said earlier in the discussion:

Quote from: class37025 on March 17, 2014, 12:56:03 PM
diesel engines used to be rattly, noisy things in vans and trucks, now you can't tell the difference and far more in cars,

Although I prefer your (Zunnan) explanation for the (comparative) price increase over class37025's. I don't disagree with the sentiment about the oil companies being money grabbing whotsitsnames and being quick to raise prices but very slow to lower them again.

Quote from: oscar on March 19, 2014, 04:15:21 PM
As I've always understood it, the distillation process produces everything from petrol to tar and diesel is just part of the process. Can't see us importing diesel!

There is more to the distillation process than merely siphoning off the fluid at a certain temperature range to obtain various grades of fuel. There are countless additives added (remember the supermarket fuel produced with the wrong additives a few years ago that literally destroyed car fuel delivery systems?) to produce varying grades of petrol, BP for instance produces its regular and super from the same source fuel and then uses additives to differentiate the octane ratings, while Shell uses different grades of the initial fuel and uses far less additives to produce the octane ratings of their regular and V-power fuels. I did loads of trials with fuels when mapping my old track car and went so far as to look at how different fuels were produced to get the most out of the car (ELF LMS race fuel by the way at 101.7RON, my little 1.8l 4cyl produced 520bhp at the flywheel on this stuff vs 486bhp on Shell V-power and 452bhp on BP super, both boosted to 100RON)

As for the importing Diesel, this article gives a brief outline.

I have had a theory for some time as to fuel costs when diesel was only used by lorries and buses and most cars run on petrol the government used to get x pence per mile in tax, cars were doing say 30 miles to the gallon, with the advent of diesel engines for cars the miles per gallon increased to say 45 miles to the gallon the government were then losing 15 miles in tax revenue, so to overcome this the fuel costs increased so it no longer mattered if you drove a petrol or diesel vehicle the cost per mile and the tax income is comparable.
Sorry for the ramble but just my theory as when we were paying £1 a gallon at the pump it was leaving the oil depot at 17p a gallon the rest was tax!

Tony

Quote from: Zunnan on March 19, 2014, 06:21:45 PM

Quote from: oscar on March 19, 2014, 04:15:21 PM
As I've always understood it, the distillation process produces everything from petrol to tar and diesel is just part of the process. Can't see us importing diesel!

There is more to the distillation process than merely siphoning off the fluid at a certain temperature range to obtain various grades of fuel. There are countless additives added (remember the supermarket fuel produced with the wrong additives a few years ago that literally destroyed car fuel delivery systems?) to produce varying grades of petrol, BP for instance produces its regular and super from the same source fuel and then uses additives to differentiate the octane ratings, while Shell uses different grades of the initial fuel and uses far less additives to produce the octane ratings of their regular and V-power fuels. I did loads of trials with fuels when mapping my old track car and went so far as to look at how different fuels were produced to get the most out of the car (ELF LMS race fuel by the way at 101.7RON, my little 1.8l 4cyl produced 520bhp at the flywheel on this stuff vs 486bhp on Shell V-power and 452bhp on BP super, both boosted to 100RON)

As for the importing Diesel, this article gives a brief outline.

Hmm! Things have changed a great deal in the last 40 years since I worked in ICI.