Yes, thanks for starting this thread and bringing this to light, Veronica - it has certainly got folk thinking and generated some informative and intelligent discussion.

George

Quote from: EtchedPixels on March 04, 2014, 02:26:16 PM

Quote from: Mark K on March 04, 2014, 01:38:59 PM
That's quite wrong. When you subscribe to a digital version you 'buy' the intellectual property in exactly the same way as you do when you buy the paper edition

No you do not. If you investigate the small print most of these 'digital magazines' merely license you use of the application and data. It's like Amazon's kindle - you don't *own* anything.


There is a specific difference between purchasing a physical object containing copyrighted material, and licensing a digital copy of a work. In the latter case you don't own it, you can't resell your copy, you don't control what you can do with it, it can't be inherited, and most rights relating to product quality don't apply either. That's why software CDs warrant that the CD media is fault free but the software can be complete junk without any recourse to fixing it.

This is also btw why you get all the stupid rules about where you can use/buy such content. First sale rights do not apply, as it's not sold, thus you can't buy a box of them in the USA and ship them into the EU as you can with paper books.

It is possible that there may be a case you "own" content licensed to you permanently. It's not clear. The European Court decided for one software case (Oracle) that this was the case. Nobody has AFAIK entirely figured out the ramifications. The law is (as usual) still catching up with things.

As a magazine publisher you may choose to give people all the equivalent rights of the paper copy (eg resale on ebay) but it's not an implicit part of the transaction.

Alan

Alan,

Thnak you for you insight into my industry. That said I do not wish to get into a can do, cannot do - I can only tell you what I and other magazine publishers do in practice and leave to one side the backroom theory.

First off, Kindle is not like that. You do own the intellectual property in as much as you own any intectual property. Amazon allows you to 'loan' out a book to a friend and while it is on loan, you are unable to access it until it is returned. Dump your paper library and that's it, it is gone. Lose your Kindle and you can still access your books on a replacment.

What appears to be the problem here is that Exact Editions compare themselves with Spotify and Nexflix. These are respectively music and film net streamers and NOT magazine content handlers. I have not heard of any magazine on line editions preventing access to previously purchased content because it's a sure way of scaring off customers. But I can fully understand the stance Spotify and Netflix because of the form of content they handle. 

We use the same digitial distribution system as the Beeb. (Can you imagine the clamour if what has happened to Veronica was duplicated by the National Broadcaster and festered on its licence paying customers?) Once you bought a digital version it's yours just like a magazine. But of course you cannot sell it. The reason is that unlike a paper edition of which you would typically own just the one copy, digital duplication is open ended - you can sell as many as people wish to buy. That puts the publisher out of business.

I do not chose if people own the intellectual property. I do not recall even being asked that question - pay for it? it's yours - no question. I think that RM has simply chosen a system that is not correct for magazine distribution.
The effects of this are clearly damaging as having seen that unless Veronica continues to subscribe she loses all that has gone before. Not only is that blackmail, it is also commerical suicide. 

I'll be interested in seeing RM's reply.

Mark K.

A slight side-issue - if you take out a digital subscription does it mean that you can only read the mag if you have an internet connection at the time you want to read them?  So, for example, you couldn't read them on a plane?

Cheers  Jon 

An update - I have got a reply from RM which I will post tomorrow. I'm at a hobby show today and added to that we are experiencing countrywide power cuts which are very inconvenient to say the least. I'm typing this on my phone which has very little battery left.

Regards

Veronica

Quote from: PostModN66 on March 09, 2014, 07:04:24 AM
A slight side-issue - if you take out a digital subscription does it mean that you can only read the mag if you have an internet connection at the time you want to read them?  So, for example, you couldn't read them on a plane?

Cheers  Jon 

I have had several magazine subscriptions which have been supplied via Zinio - the whole content of the magazine is downloaded to your computer and can only be accessed by the Zinio magazine reader. Some of these subscriptions have been disconitinued/lapsed and I can still access the magazine editions concerned.

IMHO that is how it should be - if you purchase a paper subscription the magazines do not spontaneously combust if you discontinue that subscription; why should it be any different if the magazine content is being supplied electronically?

As a railwayman I am fortunate to see all these publications on the day of issue as I regularly visit main stations (such as Paddington) with almost High Street sized "bookstalls". As such I would never even consider these digital publications  and feel sorry for those, like Veronica (Silly Moo) who have to rely on them.

I am sure that Veronica does not have to rely on electronic publications - I think her beef is about not enough information being given by RM mag to people who sign up for them.

Here in Australia, we wait a couple of months before the paper version arrives at the newsagents, but, hey? time is free.

I was gonna be a doctor, but I never had the patience, by the way. 

Cheers,

George 

Quote from: silly moo on March 04, 2014, 12:50:03 PM
I feel a real twit and rather angry.      I subscribe to a few of the model railway magazines in digital format, it's real advantage to someone who lives miles away with a dreadful postal service.

Regards

Veronica.

Maybe I misunderstood her post when I wrote "rely", but that's how I seem to read it myself. But you may be right.

An unfortunate side-effect to all this digital subscription malarkey is the demise of the CD-Rom Annual that was such good value 

17 quid for every layout featured during the year including extra photos (and of course zoomable on a PC), sometimes video as well, and every article, all without pages and pages of advertising. Plus having the CD means you can look at it whenever you want. Sadly no more.

I'll bet a LOT of people have been caught out in the same way as Veronica when they stop their subscription!


Paul

Good point! I've got about half a dozen of those hiding under Iron Man 3 and Avengers DVDs somewhere! Must dig 'em out! They were good! Stuck on the front cover of the mag, and very often without cellophane!

Aaaah.... them's was the days.... and not so long ago, either....  :'(

Oh, and Ken Russell's 1974 movie rendition of the Who's rock opera 'Tommy' is on top of them too.... but you wouldn't know about that, would ya, Paul!?? 

Ooops.... 

Quote from: Mark K on March 09, 2014, 06:43:18 AM
First off, Kindle is not like that. You do own the intellectual property in as much as you own any intectual property. Amazon allows you to 'loan' out a book to a friend and while it is on loan, you are unable to access it until it is returned. Dump your paper library and that's it, it is gone. Lose your Kindle and you can still access your books on a replacment.

No you do not. Amazon in some countries *choose* to allow a minimal 'loan' system. You do not however own anything or have any automatic right to loan books.

I'm not saying electronic books don't have advantages (I've got lots and the space saving is great), you just don't own them. Were Amazon to fail your kindle books would basically be unusable without cracking them (which is currently illegal in the UK)

Quote
Broadcaster and festered on its licence paying customers?) Once you bought a digital version it's yours just like a magazine.

No it's not "yours". There is no physical object to be yours. You don't own the "digital" copy in exactly the same way as you don't own the actual words in a book. More importantly it is not 'goods' so the sale of goods act does not apply. It's a service.

Quote
I do not chose if people own the intellectual property. I do not recall even being asked that question - pay for it? it's yours - no question.

If I "own" the intellectual property (which btw is a very misleading term once you get to the reality of it - correctly its an intellectual monopoly) then I own the right to print more copies and distribute them.

As to telling you how your industry works, I've spent far too much of the last twenty years working on things like digital rights, information policy and open source software. I certainly couldn't run a magazine but I do know far more than I ever wanted to about the legal side of "intellectual property" and of digital works.

You own nothing with a digital magazine. The magazine producer may have given you an unlimited duration licence they can never revoke, they may have given you rights to transfer that copy but not make others. You still don't own anything - it's the magazine producer choosing to give you those rights rather than things like the sale of goods act protecting you.

Furthermore if they use digital rights management schemes and they go under you may wake up one morning to find the app on your tablet just says

'Unable to resolve www.somemagco.com'

and all your magazines have vanished into the ether.

Alan

Quote from: Bealman on March 09, 2014, 11:11:00 AM
Good point! I've got about half a dozen of those hiding under Iron Man 3 and Avengers DVDs somewhere! Must dig 'em out! They were good! Stuck on the front cover of the mag, and very often without cellophane!

Not the free bonus CDs George, I was talking about the ones you buy from Peco directly in a proper box A whole year's worth of RM for less than half the price of 12 paper mags.

QuoteOh, and Ken Russell's 1974 movie rendition of the Who's rock opera 'Tommy' is on top of them too.... but you wouldn't know about that, would ya, Paul!?? 

You'd think I wouldn't know about it, but I have seen it 'Tommy' also ended up as my nickname for a while - I had a perm trying to emulate all those heavy rock dudes in the 80s but ended up looking more like Roger Daltrey's rock-opera character 

We're definitely  now, but it's light relief from the building argument above that will end up being locked soon by the look of it ...


Paul

My understanding is that with all the various e-magazine delivery companies/mechanisms, if you download a copy to local storage, you can still access that issue on that device after a subscription lapses, however if you only view on line it does vary: with some you can no longer access any issues but others allow to still view issues published during the time your subscription was active...

An update, firstly apologies for the delayed reply, we really have been living in Darkest Africa this week and had a thirty hour power cut.

I'm more confused than ever. This was the reply from Exact Editions:

Your subscription to Railway Modeller expired on 14th February 2014.

As such you are no longer able to access the Railway Modeller app. And are not able to download any issues anymore.

Exact Editions subscriptions work on an access model basis, similar to Spotify or Netflix. This means that for the duration of your subscription you can access an archive of back issues as well as each new issue. However Exact Editions subscription do not sell permanent access to specific issues

And this the one from RM:

I am sorry that you are disappointed with our digital service.
Like most subscription services, once you stop subscribing you lose access to the service.
However, you can download/sync the digital issues onto any Ipad, Kindle or Android device. How do you view your magazine?
WE use Exact Editions because they allow us to offer free digital issues to our printed magazine subscribers – we are the only modelling magazine to offer this service.

They offered me two months free subscription.

If I've got it right then I should still be able to read any issues that were synced on my iPad prior to my canceling the subscription. I should have 17 'paid for issues' I only have six, so eleven are missing. I'm not sure where the missing issues went, perhaps they didn't download properly? Now I'm no longer a subscriber there's no way of getting them back. I expect that when I upgrade the software on my iPad they will vanish and if I buy another device, I've really had it.

I wonder if I can get round it by buying a months subscription and downloading all my missing issues?

Compare this to the other magazines where if an issue fails to download properly you can download it again even years later and even if you are no longer a subscriber.

I get Etched Pixels point about these digital magazines not lasting forever but I expect access to them for a few years to come.

I would welcome any comments and suggestions.

Regards

Veronica.

Thread pruned of unrelated posts due to complaints

Back to the topic . . .


Paul