Quote from: Bealman on January 08, 2014, 10:51:18 AM

Quote from: ParkeNd on January 08, 2014, 09:51:23 AM

Quote from: Dr Al on January 08, 2014, 08:55:08 AM

Quote from: Les1952 on January 07, 2014, 09:06:40 PM
I will say, however, that the TOTAL sales of N-gauge locos of any UK type aren't big enough to iron-out random statistical variations.  One over-tired assembler on a production run can muck up a high percentage of any batch of either manufacturer.......

Maybe, but we're paying them to do it correctly....

Cheers,
Alan

Couldn't agree more. Shipping quantities and the quantities made in one production run may be quite different. "Batch of 1" is becoming quite prevalent in manufacturing because you can make a much wider range of products within a day. Long setup times can be engineered out and work measurements like "efficiency" are now seen to be worthless - it's not smart to make more than anyone needs and this just ramps up leadtimes beyond belief.

So maintaining quality needs only to be over say 10 units before errors or badly fitting components are flagged up by the operator. And this is all about instilling a quality ethos in the workforce in every department. Even getting the parts to the lines on time so that manufacturing isn't tempted to build "derelicts" that they forget to retrofit - like my Dapol Hall with no drive shaft.

Moving production around from one cheap economy to another is real enemy of quality.

We deserve no less in 2014 than being able to get the product out of the box and for it to work first time every time.

Sometimes I don't believe I'm reading this stuff. We are playing trains, and if any contributor to this forum can do better, perhaps they can start up their own business and try themselves.

I know I wouldn't even think about it (nor do I have the resources to do so).... BUT - there are folk on here who are established NGS foundation members, and small industries catering for N gauge modellers also advertise their own products here.

Negative comments like the above don't get this hobby anywhere.

George

I don't believe I am reading this. I DID spend 48 years on the front line in manufacturing and in the last 15 years or so we DID achieve better quality  in our products than we are getting in terms of consistency with our trains.

To accept that say 5% or 10% of our locos not working properly at £100 per throw is very 1970s. One prestige company I worked for in 1970 believed that no customer could reasonably expect their unique and complex product to arrive at a customers premises and work straight out of the box or not have the odd scratch or two on the back. The customers voted with their feet as soon as alternative manufacturers appeared.

What would happen if a third major player (these guys make 00 as well) came into the market with better quality toys.

I seem to have stirred something up.

GWR-Kris:

I'm sorry, but I cannot make sense out of your last paragraph.

Dr Al:

I can see your point.

ParkeNd:

I don't know your career history! Model railway manufacturing - I assume?

Bedtime here in Oz.

Regards, George.

We can't play trains if they don't run properly. If no one complained then the quality would be even worse.

I've been lucky with products from both manufacturers, thank goodness, as I have limited funds and have to think carefully about each purchase.

Topics like this may sound like one big grumbling session but I find them very useful as they give me the information needed to (hopefully) make wise purchases. One thing I've learned is to test all locos before buying them.

Complaints are not confined to this forum alone,  there are complaints about Hornby and Bachmann on other forums and no doubt there are even complaints on German forums about Minitrix and Fleischmann locos too.

Regards

Veronica

Quote from: Bealman on January 08, 2014, 11:53:16 AM
I seem to have stirred something up.

GWR-Kris:

I'm sorry, but I cannot make sense out of your last paragraph.
Regards, George.

Haha think you have. 

Sorry last paragraph was trying to explain out of say 10 locos i bought from dapol only 2 out those have not had to be returned under warrenty. so within 12months thats 80% failure. I do not see this as acceptable quaility.

Quote from: silly moo on January 08, 2014, 11:59:58 AM
Topics like this may sound like one big grumbling session but I find them very useful as they give me the information needed to (hopefully) make wise purchases. One thing I've learned is to test all locos before buying them.

Hi Veronica

While I can see the logic of your point (particularly being in SA!), the risk is that you get put off a particular model by a relatively small number of negative reports - we see it time and again that people put reports on the latest problem, but it is relatively rare to see similar reports of praise. Even if failure rates are as high as 10%, that still means that an awful lot of people have reasonable runners (or have never run them or fixed any issues themselves).

That isn't an attempt to gloss over issues - it is absolutely right that people should record issues with/complain about/return duds - just a warning that we don't unintentionally mislead people.

Cheers, Mike

Kris, that's a terrible % of duds! I only have 1 Dapol, a 14xx which
always run ok, though it only pulls 1 coach or a couple of small wagons.

Quote from: red_death on January 08, 2014, 12:32:26 PM
While I can see the logic of your point (particularly being in SA!), the risk is that you get put off a particular model by a relatively small number of negative reports - we see it time and again that people put reports on the latest problem, but it is relatively rare to see similar reports of praise. Even if failure rates are as high as 10%, that still means that an awful lot of people have reasonable runners (or have never run them or fixed any issues themselves).

That isn't an attempt to gloss over issues - it is absolutely right that people should record issues with/complain about/return duds - just a warning that we don't unintentionally mislead people.

Cheers, Mike

TBH I completly agree with you. But one advantage of the forums you do tend to get more people pipe up and say if they had no issues.

Quote from: Bealman on January 08, 2014, 11:53:16 AM
I seem to have stirred something up.

GWR-Kris:

I'm sorry, but I cannot make sense out of your last paragraph.

Dr Al:

I can see your point.

ParkeNd:

I don't know your career history! Model railway manufacturing - I assume?

Bedtime here in Oz.

Regards, George.

George. It was in complex electro-mechanical assembly. Prestige motor cars, Deltic engines, Photocopiers, Bespoke industrial electric motors, washing machines and tumble dryers, Aeroplanes, and gas boilers.

All in fact remarkably similar in terms of components, manufacturing processes, and the undesirability in the customers eyes for them not to work first time, or indeed ever to break down.

Can't see anything unique or special in any way about model trains.

Quote from: GWR-Kris on January 08, 2014, 12:40:07 PM
TBH I completly agree with you. But one advantage of the forums you do tend to get more people pipe up and say if they had no issues.

In that case I should pipe up about not having any issues. I have two Dapol locos and both of them are trouble-free (if a little lightweight in the hauling department - oops, that's very nearly a gripe!).

Peter

Quote from: ParkeNd on January 08, 2014, 02:03:00 PM
Can't see anything unique or special in any way about model trains.

On an individual component and general business level I agree, what does make N gauge (in particular) different is the size of market and willingness of customer to pay a necessary price for quality demanded.

Cheers, Mike

as both dapol and bachmann seem to have tender drives (appart some new stock) may be they should award Union Mills a massive contract to manufacture future tender chassis ...

that said i've had some crap US outline stuff from backy - and they are 2013 releases both steames and waesels ...

future purchases will be Kato .

Quote from: red_death on January 08, 2014, 02:32:45 PM

Quote from: ParkeNd on January 08, 2014, 02:03:00 PM
Can't see anything unique or special in any way about model trains.

On an individual component and general business level I agree, what does make N gauge (in particular) different is the size of market and willingness of customer to pay a necessary price for quality demanded.

Cheers, Mike

It really wasn't any different for any of the products except perhaps for the cars. Washing machines were the most price sensitive since there were only two major customers and they wanted to pay no more than £150 for your products - and did you ever come across a wife who was silent when the washing machine broke down.

Quality doesn't cost money. It costs a change in attitude and in particular dropping the defence "we are unique - it couldn't be done here"

Quite possibly the major model train manufacturers think what their customers want most is models festooned with detail, but are quite happy to solder and re-assemble the defects themselves. There are probably even companies who think we are happy to wait for replacements or missing bits to be shipped in the post.

For me, having the model the right shape overall, but run perfectly is what matters. I don't bother to fit all the bits in the bags because I can't see them.

I don't have any Union Mills locos but the more I hear about them from forum members the more I think that the man who owns and runs Union Mills really understands Quality.

If we don't get the Quality message back to the big two who else will. But that message has to go back via the retailers because they are their customers - we are just "end users".

Quote from: ParkeNd on January 08, 2014, 03:41:19 PM
I don't have any Union Mills locos but the more I hear about them from forum members the more I think that the man who owns and runs Union Mills really understands Quality.

I have three now and they really are top quality in terms of running and haulage. They will haul just about anything you stick behind them, including other locos. Detail is about on a level with 1990s Graham Farish, but there are so many additional details that cost very little that can be added to them to make them look even better - vacuum pipes, coupling hooks, handrails, tools, etc. I can't recommend them highly enough.

Quote from: ParkeNd on January 08, 2014, 03:41:19 PM
It really wasn't any different for any of the products except perhaps for the cars.

Quality doesn't cost money. It costs a change in attitude and in particular dropping the defence "we are unique - it couldn't be done here"

Quite possibly the major model train manufacturers think what their customers want most is models festooned with detail, but are quite happy to solder and re-assemble the defects themselves. There are probably even companies who think we are happy to wait for replacements or missing bits to be shipped in the post.

For me, having the model the right shape overall, but run perfectly is what matters. I don't bother to fit all the bits in the bags because I can't see them.

I actually agree with you on most things - I'd rather have quality mechanisms, the right shape and the detail, but then I haven't had the issues with things failing that others have and I'm prepared to pay more for it.

I still think that size of market is an issue when ltd editions don't sell 250-500 and that the market is very price sensitive. 

Furthermore, I disagree that quality doesn't cost money - that is either naive or disingenuous - while I agree it requires a change in attitude, it also requires investment in time and/or money in development, plus it may mean having more skilled or better motivated workers ie ultimately it adds to a cost. Farish benefit from being able to use the same factory repeatedly (owned by their parent cpy) whereas Dapol contract out (and IIRC had to change at least once).

I don't for one minute think it can't be done, but I do wonder whether we will pay for it!

Cheers, Mike

Better quality does not necessary mean a huge hike in price, when your talking about better quality motors etc the price is in pence rather than pounds. Where Dapol really fall down is cheap components and just awful soldering on pcbs that should have been sorted out years ago. Coupled to this you have badly designed interiors such as the 26 and 27 where the terrible soldering is put under more pressure as there is simply not enough room for the lighting units. Farish on the other hand have an elegant chassis on most of the retooled models that is easy to take apart with most faults easily fixed.

The one ray of light, last year, was the class 22 from Dapol which is on a par with the latest Farish diesels and has finally ditched the lighting connectors and I really hope that this model is a sign of things to come from Dapol and also I see the involvement of the guy from DCC supplies as a real positive move and will hopefully bring some much needed  QC advice to the company.