Quote from: ParkeNd on December 15, 2013, 09:53:12 AM

There are already well produced and comprehensive magazines like Model Railway Journal which for £4.20 per copy meet what seem to be Mr Hedges beef with the mag and is aimed squarely at the model railway engineer with donkey's years of specialist experience.

You've obviously still failed to understand if you think that I consider MRJ to be what I expect from the NGS Journal.

H.

Quote from: H on December 15, 2013, 09:53:42 AM
There is quite a difference between the 'commercial publications' and editorship of them and the NGS Journal. With a commercial magazine the editor falls or survives on his ability to select appropriate content that won't adversely affect sales. The journal is different - there is no commercial pressure for sales (the circulation is fixed by the membership), they do not pay for submissions (unlike Railway Modeller, etc., so there is no competitive financial pressure) and in general all the content is provided by the members (so as they are also the readership no doubt they have some interest in it).

Thanks for your explanation here. I do understand what you're driving at.

However, I disagree. The Journal is part of how the NGS sells itself. If someone like me, new to N gauge, visits the NGS stall at a model show, one of the things I'll flip through is the journal*. If few or none of the articles appeal, I'm less likely to join the NGS than if most or all of the articles appeal. In other words, the Journal is a sort of "shop window" where the NGS sets out its wares in the hope of attracting customers.

I don't know the articles rejected so can't comment on why. But if they lacked a "hook" to get the interest of less skilful hobbyists, I can see why the editor would reject them. As I suggested above, I'd love to see articles that would "hold my hand" through the next steps in modelling from plastic kits and scenery making. So if that's what you want to see more of, you have my vote! But if you want articles that *assume* years of soldering and kit building experience, I would humbly suggest that such articles would be of such limited appeal the Journal would understandably be reticent about publishing too many (though surely one or two per issue wouldn't be a bad idea at all, suggesting to newbies what they're aiming for a few years down the line).

Cheers, NeMo

* Yes, I know about the shop and the RTR stuff.

Quote from: NeMo on December 15, 2013, 10:05:01 AM

However, I disagree. The Journal is part of how the NGS sells itself. If someone like me, new to N gauge, visits the NGS stall at a model show, one of the things I'll flip through is the journal*. If few or none of the articles appeal, I'm less likely to join the NGS than if most or all of the articles appeal. In other words, the Journal is a sort of "shop window" where the NGS sets out its wares in the hope of attracting customers.

The above don't dismiss or contradict the three main points I raised - they are factual, still stand and are a major difference between the Journal and 'commercial' magazines.

The journal may be a window to non-members but it is debateable whether that is a consideration for the editor and even if so it is certainly a very small window. The NGS stand, with journals to peruse, attends a very small percentage of the hundreds of model railway exhibitions around the country. So the opportunity to look at it in such a casual way by non-members is very restricted. Sure you can also 'order' one by post but that means you pay for it and will have needed to have seen the advert. I doubt very much that there is any significant intention in the production of the journal for the editor to make every issue a specific NGS advert - besides wouldn't it be better to have a wide range or articles to showcase the breadth of content and be attractive to more potential members rather than ruling many out.

Quote from: NeMo on December 15, 2013, 10:05:01 AM

But if you want articles that *assume* years of soldering and kit building experience, I would humbly suggest that such articles would be of such limited appeal the Journal would understandably be reticent about publishing too many (though surely one or two per issue wouldn't be a bad idea at all, suggesting to newbies what they're aiming for a few years down the line).

I've certainly not said anything of the sort (that I want a journal full of such articles). But what I would like to see are articles that lead beginners through and ease them in to being able to undertake skills (such a soldering and kit building) necessary to undertake some constructional modelling.

However there are members who do have years of such experience and having a few articles aimed at them would help make the journal more inclusive and hopefully be inspirational for others. The membership is not 100% beginners and newbies who are only interested in RTR. A broadening of appeal would be a good move IMO.

H.

Quote from: H on December 15, 2013, 10:31:04 AM
But what I would like to see are articles that lead beginners through and ease them in to being able to undertake skills (such a soldering and kit building) necessary to undertake some constructional modelling.

And here you and I are in agreement. Now: we need to find people to write such pieces who are able to explain the 'baby steps' needed for such articles to be successful.

Cheers, NeMo

Whilst I do feel the Journal lacks enough interesting articles (particularly on layouts and new products) at present to make it a good read, as I do not submit anything to the editor all I can say is thanks to all those who give up their time to submit articles and get the journal published.

As for the window into the Society the website is likely to be main touch point for most people so we should get behind the volunteers and submit articles and ideas for the web also. Maybe a members only area also might help.

My main motivation for rejoining the society was in fact the RTR items they produce.  I hope these continue to cover the 1980s.   

Quote from: NeMo on December 15, 2013, 10:46:13 AM

Now: we need to find people to write such pieces who are able to explain

Not just the writing but to also take and include some decent explanatory photographs. The problem is who is prepared to take the risk producing such articles knowing that with the current content policy it is likely to be rejected for being either 'too high-brow' or for not being yet another RTR monologue. 

H.

I have always enjoyed the journals, and I can fully see what both camps are saying. 

Personally I enjoy seeing models and layouts from those who are deemed experts but also from those who have had their first go at repainting or bashing a new locomotive together!    I have a box full of some awful models that I've made....but for about 5 years or more I thought they were brilliant.  Now I can look at some of them and laugh.    However, they gave me a lot of fun and I was proud of what I achieved at the time.  So for me I'd love to see more pictures of layouts and models where members have had a good go at creating something that pleases them and where a model doesn't have to be superdetailed or have perfect lines on them to be published in a magazine.  This in my opinion WOULD encourage others to give repainting or the more advanced stages of modelling a go.

I would also like to see more pictures of unique models in the magazines (and on here of course!), but not necessarily with them being in the NGS competitions.  Every now and again you see a photograph unique models from model railway shows, or unique items appearing on eBay for sale, but it's a shame that the creator hasn't necessarily put a picture or workbench thread on the internet for us all to drool over! 

I wrote to the editor last year with much the same view Grahame expressed, and was frankly shocked by the reply.

My main beef with the NGS is that the magazine is too passive. There is an attitude that 'it's not our fault the content isn't great as no one sends stuff in'. Can you imagine a newspaper editor saying the same? No, they seek out stories.

Where is the full page notice asking for articles, reviews,  layout photos? Who on the staff is browsing through this forum and RMWeb and emailing members asking if they'd like to write up something for the journal?

Given the editorial vacancy this is a very timely debate, and the opportunity is there to create a really good journal - not highbrow, but inclusive for all skill levels.

I also agree with the sentiment expressed above that people are put off submitting articles as it's almost embarrassing to see your work included alongside what does get published. I don't mean this as an insult to other modellers, but when blurred out of focus photos are considered acceptable for printing, it's just not something I want to be associated with.

This forum alone has enough interesting content - at all levels of experience and skill - to fill the journal several years over. I give this and RMWeb a daily read. The NGS Journal? A ten minute flip through, a sigh, then straight in the recycling bin sadly.

David

H I can see your point but surely the N Gauge Society is doing you a big favour or any other mag a favour as not to specialize for everyone, surely the point at the end of the day is if you need to learn something new or is out of your remit then you go to a forum and ask for advice or find another mag that is specialising in that subject.

And maybe N Gauge Society has no plans to change there ways, at least we know what we are buying into.

Quote from: H on December 15, 2013, 10:56:28 AM
Not just the writing but to also take and include some decent explanatory photographs. The problem is who is prepared to take the risk producing such articles knowing that with the current content policy it is likely to be rejected for being either 'too high-brow' or for not being yet another RTR monologue.

In the world of commercial magazines, you'd ask the editor beforehand whether the article sounded appropriate. In other words, you'd pitch the idea. The editor might then submit an article specification -- basically what he/she expected in the finished article. Sometimes this is restrictive, sometimes much looser. That's when you go ahead and spend masses of time and energy (and possibly expense if photographers and travel expenses are necessary). So not a big deal.

The same approach would be appropriate here, surely. Tell the editor what you'd like to write about, see if he/she bites, and then dive in!

And in the spirit of amity and progress, I'd be happy to help* anyone write an article for the NGS, perhaps if they want someone with experience to proofread their article or suggest ways to tackle certain problems.

One surprise for me when I submitted to the NGS was that I heard almost nothing from the (then?) editor until he told me he needed a couple more pictures. The time between submission and that e-mail was at least six months, by which time I'd totally rewritten the thing. So what got published felt more like a first draft to me, and I was honestly a bit disappointed I wasn't sent proofs or the edited versions for comments and corrections. But that won't stop me submitting something else when the muse calls!

Cheers, NeMo

*Without being a coauthor I mean, but just as one NGF member helping another.

Quote from: NeMo on December 15, 2013, 11:30:53 AM
One surprise for me when I submitted to the NGS was that I heard almost nothing from the (then?) editor......

As an addition to this, I know of a few members who had articles published without even knowing until it dropped through their front door!

Quote from: NeMo on December 15, 2013, 11:30:53 AM

The same approach would be appropriate here, surely. Tell the editor what you'd like to write about, see if he/she bites, and then dive in!

Yep, in an ideal and commercial world, but we're talking about a society magazine which is of and for members. And judging from BMthtrains post it seems that they are desperate for articles to be sent in - hardly a position in which to be picky and reject some.

Quote from: NeMo on December 15, 2013, 11:30:53 AM

One surprise for me when I submitted to the NGS was that I heard almost nothing from the (then?) editor until he told me he needed a couple more pictures. The time between submission and that e-mail was at least six months, by which time I'd totally rewritten the thing. So what got published felt more like a first draft to me, and I was honestly a bit disappointed I wasn't sent proofs or the edited versions for comments and corrections.

Hmmm, well, yes, err . . . . it certainly seems like something is not going right at NGS Journal towers. I edit the DEMU UPDate magazine and send people who submit articles a PDF of it after editing and how it will look to check that no errors have crept in.

H.

Hi

I'm afraid if  the Journal goes down the elitist route,the N gauge society will loose my membership,I have to use RTR items.

I really used to like making kits and kit bashing,but now I can't I had stroke about 3 years ago and now only have limited use of my right hand now.

Even my newest layout,I had to get from Boxfile models because I couldn't lay the track,so the journal  as it is now is ideal for me.

Mike

Quote from: NeMo on December 15, 2013, 11:30:53 AM
In the world of commercial magazines, you'd ask the editor beforehand whether the article sounded appropriate. In other words, you'd pitch the idea. The editor might then submit an article specification -- basically what he/she expected in the finished article. Sometimes this is restrictive, sometimes much looser. That's when you go ahead and spend masses of time and energy (and possibly expense if photographers and travel expenses are necessary). So not a big deal.

The same approach would be appropriate here, surely. Tell the editor what you'd like to write about, see if he/she bites, and then dive in!

Cheers, NeMo

*Without being a coauthor I mean, but just as one NGF member helping another.

I think that is exactly the right approach. I have had about 20 model related articles published, mainly in French rather than English. Each time I ran the idea past the Editor first, and for each of them the "final" draft was run past my wife. This is quite simply to test whether what I have written can be easily understood. She also does not pull her punches - so I get an honest appraisal. An advantage is that people are less likely to miss the point of what I have written because I explained it badly.

I enjoy the NGS Journal and Model Railway Journal. Yes there is room for the NGS Journal to cover more complicated modelling but I would want even those articles to be written so that they are accessible to all the membership.  It would require a different level of time input and technical expertise from the editorial team, a blend which might well be difficult I find in a "volunteer" environment. That is probably what Grahame was driving at in the original letter in Journal 5/13.

Quote from: NeMo on December 14, 2013, 11:27:37 PM
At the end of the day the NGS Journal is put together by volunteers, and unless Mr Hedge's is volunteering to help 'improve' the journal in the directions he suggests, his letter seemed (to me) a bit unkind towards the people running the society and its journal.

As someone with a 4 digit NGS membership number, it starts with a 7, I think it fair to state that Mr Hedges has probably "done his time" as a volunteer.  In the years that I've been a member he's written letters and had articles published about his layouts.  He also headed the Modern Area Group and very nearly got far enough along with that for it to start to build a layout.

Since "stepping back" from the NGS he's headed a national modelling railway organisation, which was mainly focussed on OO, and has produced his excellent series of N'Spirations magazines.

Mr Hedges just wants the NGS to raise their game a bit, especially with the Journal, and in that matter I'm with him.  All I've saved from the Journal in 21 years of membership are 137 articles, the rest were consigned to the recycling bin.  When the Journal arrives I go through it, editorial (no), reviews (don't say boo to a goose and already covered elsewhere), steam layout (no), shop matters (yes), anything modern image (yes).  All in all it's about a 20 read/scan every other month.  So why be a member well I'm in it for access to the shop, which is excellent (don't change it please), and the exclusive kits and RTR items.  The subscription isn't that much per year so I feel I break even, I've even written the odd letter down the years.

As to improvements in the Journal perhaps the Annual Model Making Competition should change its rules so that an entry must be submitted with a "how it was done" document.  This would instantly provide an increase in available content for the Journal and therefore address one of Mr Hedges concerns.  I personally like to know how a model was built/converted/whatever and most of the time I don't get that information.  So how about it NGS committee members if you're monitoring this Forum?

For the record I intend to stick with the NGS for the time being but given the ever increasng move to electronic media I think it may need to revise its method of diseminating information to its members.

Nigel