Quote from: bees on January 28, 2013, 11:00:23 PM
A company, i think shouldn't announce a release if they then later would back out.

So they should stick to their announcements even if market conditions change or competitors bring out the same product?

Companies exist to make a profit. A product may be announced at a time they think they can make a profit but that subsequently changes. Take the Farish 9F, they announced this long before it was ready for production. In the meantime Dapol released theirs and it sold well. After initial runs  they were able to drop the price (perhaps they had payed off the cost of the toolings). Market demand was satisfied and Dapol could sell their existing model for less than Farish would need to charge for a new one. So they dropped it.

Or Dapol's Pendolino. This was announced along with other electric models but those proved to be poor sellers. With no evidence that the Pendolino would sell better, Dapol put it "on the back burner". Yes it is frustrating for modellers who want one (unless Hornby decide to release one under the Arnold branding) but Dapol and their stockists cannot afford to have slow sellers hanging about.

Quote from: Karhedron on January 29, 2013, 09:04:54 AM

Quote from: bees on January 28, 2013, 11:00:23 PM

A company, i think shouldn't announce a release if they then later would back out.

So they should stick to their announcements even if market conditions change or competitors bring out the same product?

Exactly. I'm sure that when they announce a new product it is done in all good faith. But, of course, they do not know what will happen in the future (while they are developing the model). Should circumstances change that would make continuing with developement pointless and the model not viable as a business propositon they ought to have the option of changing their plans, just as any of us have the right to change our mind - after all they haven't entered in to a binding contract and no consideration has passed.

H.

Hi

Some very diverse views in the replies - thanks for all of those.

While I expect no one will be saying that manufacturers cannot change their minds when bringing out new models I still  think the main point is the long delays caused by a variety I suspect, of non commercial reasons - mistakes in scale, alterations to CAD designs caused by enthusiast's criticisms (whether or not justified) and perceived incorrect colours.
In the last two years some of these delays must have cost a packet and were many months. If we knew the cost would it be worth it?
Add to this that all production runs seem to be the same no matter how popular the model will certainly be.You only have to peruse all the unsold A3s and A4s that are in stock at  on-line retailers but can you get a 'Flying Scotsman' or a 'Mallard'? Surely everyone would expect these to sell more than a small production run and in my view should always be available if n gauge is not to remain a small insular interest as these are the famous engines that will attract newbies into the hobby. If I were a manufacturer I would have a large stock ready for release when the National Museum re-exhibits the revitalised prototypes.

Another example is how quickly that recent  'Great Western' lettered green panier tank sold out before Xmas. It was bound to be popular. If that manufacturer had made more items then it would have profited considerably. Instead many prospective customers are brassed off with what seems to them to be inept market manipulation. I am sure that is not quite correct but we are suffering from a very strange market place where there continues to be pent up market demand that cannot be satisfied in a reasonable timespan. 

Cheers

Mac

Quote from: macwales on January 29, 2013, 02:23:59 PM
You only have to peruse all the unsold A3s and A4s that are in stock at  on-line retailers but can you get a 'Flying Scotsman' or a 'Mallard'? Surely everyone would expect these to sell more than a small production run and in my view should always be available if n gauge is not to remain a small insular interest as these are the famous engines that will attract newbies into the hobby. If I were a manufacturer I would have a large stock ready for release when the National Museum re-exhibits the revitalised prototypes.

I am pretty sure Dapol have stated elsewhere that they are planning future production runs of both Flying Scotsman and Mallard so they will be back. As to "having a large stock ready", Dapol have had their fingers burned by flooding the market before. Better to do small runs that can be repeated if necessary rather than be left with unsold stock.

Quote from: macwales on January 29, 2013, 02:23:59 PM
Another example is how quickly that recent  'Great Western' lettered green panier tank sold out before Xmas. It was bound to be popular. If that manufacturer had made more items then it would have profited considerably.

How were Dapol to know it was "bound to be popular"? It is easy to say that with hindsight. Farish on the other hand seem to have found that pre-nationalisation liveries do not sell as well as BR ones (to the point that some of their new locos are only being released in BR liveries). There is justification from their main competitor for not overdoing such an early livery (1923 - 1934).

All you have done is picked 3 examples of models that have sold out and said that Dapol should have known they would be popular. On what basis should they have known that? It is in Dapol's interest to see that all their runs sell, not that shops are left with stock on their shelves for months (or even years). From this perspective, small runs in many liveries that can easily be repeated if they prove popular makes the most commercial sense.

Quote from: macwales on January 29, 2013, 02:23:59 PM

I still  think the main point is the long delays caused by a variety I suspect, of non commercial reasons - mistakes in scale, alterations to CAD designs caused by enthusiast's criticisms (whether or not justified) and perceived incorrect colours.

Sorry, but that in not correct (IMO). Errors are not perceptions. If a mistake has been made, in scale or whatever, it's factual not opinion, and is not caused by enthusiasts criticisms. If it needs to be corrected then it is not a non- commercial reason and is not the fault of the enthusiats or customer. The delay is caused by the manufacturer not getting it right first time.

H.

Quote from: Karhedron on January 29, 2013, 02:36:15 PM

I am pretty sure Dapol have stated elsewhere that they are planning future production runs of both Flying Scotsman and Mallard so they will be back. As to "having a large stock ready", Dapol have had their fingers burned by flooding the market before. Better to do small runs that can be repeated if necessary rather than be left with unsold stock.

Yep, Dapol have gone on record as saying that the N gauge market is saturated and consequently that is why they now produce smaller batch sizes. That makes more business sense than ending up with huge unsold stocks, and should the line prove to be popular to then produce another batch in order to more accurately balance/match supply with demand.

H.

Hi there, I do see where you guys are coming from. But what I was trying to get at (obviously badly, lol), was that they shouldn't announce anything until they are much closer to release, it's just a form of teasing otherwise!

It's just like (this is meant as a light hearted analogy), when SWMBO puts on your favourite lingerie , the one she looks really, really hot in, for a night out with you and telling you your getting it later . Then when she gets home, drunk, she falls asleep almost immediately !!

H - I know Dapol attempted the unnumbered loco's approach, but if I remember correctly it was with the class 73, something that modellers would only have/want 1 or 2 at the most. Whereas if this concept was adopted more for rolling stock, especially TSO's, SK's, etc..... on reflection Loco's are not the right idea except maybe 37's, 47's, 66's, classes that there was alot of examples and only in specific liveries; Two Tone Green, BR Blue, Railfreight, EWS, etc.....  The same thing can also be done with steam, especially GWR loco's all in the same livery and very popular!!!

While Bachmann can afford (?) runs of 5000 of this that or the other, is not the same story for other manufacturers. Also holding large amounts of stock =cost of storage.
It is a fine balance in so many ways that affects production of models. After waiting for over 20 years we we are a little bit spoilt now as it is boom time despite the economic climate for model production. Can't help thinking there have been one or two boo boo's of late in choices made, 4 CEP for example especially in un refurbished form.

For me, eagerly anticipate the arrival of Dapols 142, but would rather it was right and a good one before hitting the shelves rather than a compromise to hit the shelves quicker.

Got my second new 20 today, and been watching and waiting the websites for its arrival. Was a bit frustrated about the wait but they have changed the buffers which for other than a few early build loco's would have been wrong for the majority of the disc head code version in blue. Is little things like that which make it worth the wait sometimes.

These are just my thoughts (I have so far resisted the blue and grey 412 as is it would just never get a run, fab though it is. When it gets heavily discounted, and I have a horrible for Bachmann feeling it will happen, i will give in!!)

H made a comment about calming down and doing some proper modelling, with a half built 310 and 309 on the bench, he is right. Happy modelling !!

Quote from: bees on January 29, 2013, 04:57:13 PM

But what I was trying to get at (obviously badly, lol), was that they shouldn't announce anything until they are much closer to release, it's just a form of teasing otherwise!

It's only teasing if you let it be.

I don't see anything wrong with announcing intentions before development work starts and it makes sense as it advises other potential manufacturers - otherwise they could spend a lot on research and development before announcing it when close to release only to find other manufacturers have also done the same, or even worse we could have spent a lot of time partially scratch-building one.

Then we'd end up with duplicated products, the market flooded with the same thing and loads going unsold.

H.

Quote from: H on January 29, 2013, 07:12:40 PM

Quote from: bees on January 29, 2013, 04:57:13 PM

But what I was trying to get at (obviously badly, lol), was that they shouldn't announce anything until they are much closer to release, it's just a form of teasing otherwise!

It's only teasing if you let it be.

I don't see anything wrong with announcing intentions before development work starts and it makes sense as it advises other potential manufacturers - otherwise they could spend a lot on research and development before announcing it when close to release only to find other manufacturers have also done the same, or even worse we could have spent a lot of time partially scratch-building one.

Then we'd end up with duplicated products, the market flooded with the same thing and loads going unsold.

H.

Spot on there H!
We've had that a few times in recent years, class 66 is one if I remember rightly, and it doesn't do the market or us modellers any good having duplicate products.
I for one would rather know that somethings coming eventually and then wait for it to arrive.
And with modern technology the waiting 'gap' between announcement & availability is getting shorter & shorter! 

What's the phrase? "You can't please all of the people all of the time" 

For the first time in gawd-knows-how-long we have more new models than ever before, much better detailed with working lights where appropriate, and at least two major manufacturers competing for our modelling-money which helps to keep stagnation from setting in. And are people happy? No.

Yes it's slightly frustrating when you have to wait ages for a new model, but as Grahame pointed out how would you feel if you spent hours scratchbuilding something only for Farish/Dapol to bring out an RTR version two weeks later? And as for small batch runs no-one can afford overstocks these days, so either pre-order or wait for the next batch, it will probably come eventually 

Better that than our major suppliers going "breasts-northwards" through bad economic management.


Paul

been rearranging my rakes, and need 2 x blue / grey mk.1 SOs.

can't seem to find any, looks like sold out.

decided I'd use SKs instead, which were showing at Hattons as preorder, but they have now disappeared.

while I understand about over stocking, I must say I find it annoying that you almost have to order your total possible requirement as soon as they are preorder, as if you want to add a few months later they are sold out.

it must be possible to manage a reasonable supply, surely.

I wonder how many people who would start into model railways either don't because they cannot get what they want, or drop out when they find that they cannot expand, other than by getting new models, rather than being able to add more of what they have.

even some sort of timetable of production would help, so at least if the SO you want is sold out, you can see that it will be run again, whether with the same number or a new one, in say three months time.

just my views for what they are worth.

Most of my frustration comes from items that have been produced being no longer available.

Take Mk3 coaches. A Virgin buffet with buffers is available but that does not make a train. If and when the other required coaches are produced you still have the DVT missing. If a DVT was available it is very likely i would just buy the rest of the rake from Farish in any livery and apply vinyls.

Or why produce two versions of a MK3 with and without buffers. Are they so basically different that just cutting the buffers off for HST's is not an acceptable solution?

Quote from: class37025 on January 29, 2013, 10:00:21 PM

been rearranging my rakes, and need 2 x blue / grey mk.1 SOs.
can't seem to find any, looks like sold out.
decided I'd use SKs instead, which were showing at Hattons as preorder, but they have now disappeared.

Sometimes it's a matter of searching around. Signal Box appear to have blue/grey Mk1 SKs in stock.

H.

Quote from: davecttr on January 29, 2013, 10:16:39 PM
Most of my frustration comes from items that have been produced being no longer available.

You do need to buy when things you want are available - that's the flip side of batch production and it's something that needs to be understood. You can't really expect manufacturers to make batches of every model indefinately. Tastes and buying patterns change, moulds wear out, production slots need to be used for new models, and so on.

Quote from: davecttr on January 29, 2013, 10:16:39 PM

Or why produce two versions of a MK3 with and without buffers. Are they so basically different that just cutting the buffers off for HST's is not an acceptable solution?

The problem is that often for many it seems that the differences are beyond the modelling effort that they are prepared to undertake to make the changes. For example it's very quick and easy to change a number on a loco but still we have people calling for either numberless versions or the numbers they want produced RTR by the manufacturer.

H.