Be prepared to be underwhelmed.........
https://tinyurl.com/4cxv99ne
Noticing a trend of "NGS Exclusives" suddenly flooding the market a number of years later under general release from Farish... Inspection Saloon, Queen Mary brake vans and now car flats.
On this occasion it's great news, as I need more so finally a purchase this year for me.
But somewhat disappointing for the society and paying the privilege to be a member. This is my only gripe, but it'll be short lived.
I'm assuming there's a tooling agreement between both, or maybe the society selling off the rights. But why not do re-runs?
Yes, there is also an argument we wouldn't have them at all - so pick a side 544!
Nice one Farish, but NGS - surely this is just going to damage the "perks" of membership?
Quick edit - any recommendations on which Carflat is suitable for 1965 - 68 please? Thank you!
Looking forward to the GWR 150. That'll go nicely with my GWR IET and 158.
And a new Castle to add to my fleet.
Quote from: NOE 544R on August 06, 2025, 11:42:17 AMNoticing a trend of "NGS Exclusives" suddenly flooding the market a number of years later under general release from Farish... Inspection Saloon, Queen Mary brake vans and now car flats.
On this occasion it's great news, as I need more so finally a purchase this year for me.
But somewhat disappointing for the society and paying the privilege to be a member. This is my only gripe, but it'll be short lived.
I'm assuming there's a tooling agreement between both, or maybe the society selling off the rights. But why not do re-runs?
Yes, there is also an argument we wouldn't have them at all - so pick a side 544!
Nice one Farish, but NGS - surely this is just going to damage the "perks" of membership?
Quick edit - any recommendations on which Carflat is suitable for 1965 - 68 please? Thank you!
Hi
I believe this is part of the agreement with Bachmann that the items will be added to their standard range after a period of time.
Cheers
Paul
Quote from: NOE 544R on August 06, 2025, 11:42:17 AMQuick edit - any recommendations on which Carflat is suitable for 1965 - 68 please? Thank you!
The bauxite ones are era 5 (1957-1966) and the blue ones are era 7 (1972-1982) so I'd plump for bauxite*
*Dates quoted for 2020 Farish era references
On exclusives, my understanding is that a commission with Bachmann by a society or retailer carries an exclusivity period rather than total exclusivity. We saw the same with inspection saloons and I guess it's reflected in the quotes Bachmann give. Not an issue any more as the NGS has dealt with factories direct for more recent rtr.
By no means a bumper announcement but good to see further wagons getting the NEM coupling upgrade and, of course if you were after a Castle or 150 in those liveries it's spot on. Hopefully there's another announcement in a few weeks with 2-3 Farish or EFE new tool items with EPs in the flesh at TINGs
As an aside, there seems to be an awful lot of multiple units from various manufacturers recently arrived or imminent with Transport for Wales as a chosen livery. Is it that popular a modelling subject or has there just been more variety of DMU rotating through Wales in the recent past?
Quote from: NOE 544R on August 06, 2025, 11:42:17 AMNoticing a trend of "NGS Exclusives" suddenly flooding the market a number of years later under general release from Farish... Inspection Saloon, Queen Mary brake vans and now car flats.
I'm assuming there's a tooling agreement between both, or maybe the society selling off the rights. But why not do re-runs.
Nice one Farish, but NGS - surely this is just going to damage the "perks".
When the NGS does an agreement with Bachmann there is always a period when the NGS has exclusive sales. After that period the moulds and rights all revert to Bachmann. If we didn't have that agreement we couldn't afford to bring these models to market in the first place.
Bob
Quote from: Newportnobby on August 06, 2025, 12:34:18 PMQuote from: NOE 544R on August 06, 2025, 11:42:17 AMQuick edit - any recommendations on which Carflat is suitable for 1965 - 68 please? Thank you!
The bauxite ones are era 5 (1957-1966) and the blue ones are era 7 (1972-1982) so I'd plump for bauxite*
*Dates quoted for 2020 Farish era references
There were some bauxite ones on the NGS website recently. Snap them up and help out your Society.
Thanks all for the insights to why they appear in the range - understood thank you!
Thank you for the help with era's too!
544
Quote from: NOE 544R on August 06, 2025, 11:42:17 AMNoticing a trend of "NGS Exclusives" suddenly flooding the market a number of years later under general release from Farish... Inspection Saloon, Queen Mary brake vans and now car flats.
The exclusives are only exclusives for a limited period. Five years or whatever. That's the deal, and ultimately, Bachmann (or Dapol) get a return on their investment beyond what they sell to the NGS. I can't remember the details (it's been a while since I sat in on Committee meetings!) but that's the basic story.
To be honest, I'd prefer the NGS focus on developing new, innovative products rather than maintaining a back catalogue. It's nice when they do re-runs with new numbers, but ultimately, I think NGS members appreciate new products more than anything else.
When I saw the Bachmann announcements my feelings were mixed. On the one hand, the Victorian tenement piece would be perfect for use on a Ranelagh Bridge-style fueling depot. Similarly, I'm glad to see the clay hoods back, and while not exactly cheap, they're at least more affordable than the ones sold on eBay and the like. The NCB hopper and LT flat wagon also provide some interesting possibilities for people who aren't modelling the BR mainline.
On the other hand, Bachmann are still pricing themselves out of the 'impulse purchase' or 'pocket money' markets -- and ultimately, I think that just makes the hobby expensive and inaccessible. They need to create some products that children can afford with pocket money, or those on limited incomes can afford with a bit of saving up. Peco and Dapol both manage to produce wagons that retail £10 or less, and Dapol have locos for under £100. I'm not sure what Bachmann think will grow the hobby or if they even care to.
Cheers,
NeMo
Quote from: NOE 544R on August 06, 2025, 02:20:11 PMThanks all for the insights to why they appear in the range - understood thank you!
Thank you for the help with era's too!
544
If you're a member of the NGS they're a fiver cheaper than Rails (bauxite item NGSR0571)
Well, at first I must say I was quite excited! But then I looked at the prices. £150?! :o I honestly would have picked up the Castle class, but it's crazy for a locomotive like that to be priced at that in my opinion. Once people are selling it for cheaper and sales occur, then I might pick some up.
Quote from: JTR4472 on August 06, 2025, 04:46:41 PMWell, at first I must say I was quite excited! But then I looked at the prices. £150?! :o I honestly would have picked up the Castle class, but it's crazy for a locomotive like that to be priced at that in my opinion. Once people are selling it for cheaper and sales occur, then I might pick some up.
They were £149.95 when first introduced in 2017, I believe. If you want to do hyperbole, try the Dapol WC/BB. Only been waiting 12 years for that one.
If you don't want a Castle at those prices, wait. I picked up Tiverton Castle secondhand at TINGS for £84 in 2022. I could afford a £20 late crest tender from Bachmann Spares to change it to a post-1956 loco.
Bob G
Quote from: JTR4472 on August 06, 2025, 04:46:41 PMWell, at first I must say I was quite excited! But then I looked at the prices. £150?! :o I honestly would have picked up the Castle class, but it's crazy for a locomotive like that to be priced at that in my opinion. Once people are selling it for cheaper and sales occur, then I might pick some up.
When I saw the RRP I actually thought it very fair for a model of that quality, and as has been pointed out, it is very little different to the price when first released some years ago. Most retailers will automatically apply the maximum initially allowed 15% discount from arrival in stock so they will immediately be available for about £127.50 after discount.
If you want a true comparison of value, the Graham Farish A4 "Falcon" from Poole days and one of their last releases in the late 90s (getting on for 30 years ago) in 1999 it had a RRP £89.95, using the Bank of England's inflation calculator that works out at £172 as of June 2025.
So in comparative terms allowing for inflation, the Castle, a far superior model to that old Poole A4 in every way conceivable in fact has a RRP that is £22 cheaper.
Suddenly the Castle's price starts to look far from crazy to me...
Roy
Quote from: Roy L S on August 06, 2025, 08:17:47 PMQuote from: JTR4472 on August 06, 2025, 04:46:41 PMWell, at first I must say I was quite excited! But then I looked at the prices. £150?! :o I honestly would have picked up the Castle class, but it's crazy for a locomotive like that to be priced at that in my opinion. Once people are selling it for cheaper and sales occur, then I might pick some up.
When I saw the RRP I actually thought it very fair for a model of that quality, and as has been pointed out, it is very little different to the price when first released some years ago. Most retailers will automatically apply the maximum initially allowed 15% discount from arrival in stock so they will immediately be available for about £127.50 after discount.
If you want a true comparison of value, the Graham Farish A4 "Falcon" from Poole days and one of their last releases in the late 90s (getting on for 30 years ago) in 1999 it had a RRP £89.95, using the Bank of England's inflation calculator that works out at £172 as of June 2025.
So in comparative terms allowing for inflation, the Castle, a far superior model to that old Poole A4 in every way conceivable in fact has a RRP that is £22 cheaper.
Suddenly the Castle's price starts to look far from crazy to me...
Roy
A very revealing comparison, especially applying the Bank of England produced inflation indices to older prices. I have been known to do this myself - somewhere I have RPI indices going back to my A level Economics days namely the early 1970s. It happens that none of this release is of interest to me. I have decided that I will be placing an order for the new V2 on Arcadia as soon as they are released. My current version will then be on the club sales stand at our next big show in May 2026, unless ABC models takes a fancy to it before the show opens.
I'm pretty sure that the blue carflats with the Motorail sign were around in 1968.
The main colour of the carflats was dirt because they were not cleaned. The motorail signs on them didn't seem too dirty though.
Quote from: JTR4472 on August 06, 2025, 04:46:41 PMWell, at first I must say I was quite excited! But then I looked at the prices. £150?! :o I honestly would have picked up the Castle class, but it's crazy for a locomotive like that to be priced at that in my opinion. Once people are selling it for cheaper and sales occur, then I might pick some up.
£150 seems like a fair price to me. What do you believe is the right price? I'm confused by "for a loco like this" - it's a (relatively) newly tooled, highly detailed model with sound compatibility and everything I'd expect of a modern model. What model would justify that price in your mind? Plus you save 20% VAT anyway!
Quote from: Roy L S on August 06, 2025, 08:17:47 PMQuote from: JTR4472 on August 06, 2025, 04:46:41 PMWell, at first I must say I was quite excited! But then I looked at the prices. £150?! :o I honestly would have picked up the Castle class, but it's crazy for a locomotive like that to be priced at that in my opinion. Once people are selling it for cheaper and sales occur, then I might pick some up.
When I saw the RRP I actually thought it very fair for a model of that quality, and as has been pointed out, it is very little different to the price when first released some years ago. Most retailers will automatically apply the maximum initially allowed 15% discount from arrival in stock so they will immediately be available for about £127.50 after discount.
@Roy L S £152.95 is the discounted price. RRP is £179.95 (according to Rails website)
Quote from: Newportnobby on August 07, 2025, 09:53:12 AMQuote from: Roy L S on August 06, 2025, 08:17:47 PMQuote from: JTR4472 on August 06, 2025, 04:46:41 PMWell, at first I must say I was quite excited! But then I looked at the prices. £150?! :o I honestly would have picked up the Castle class, but it's crazy for a locomotive like that to be priced at that in my opinion. Once people are selling it for cheaper and sales occur, then I might pick some up.
When I saw the RRP I actually thought it very fair for a model of that quality, and as has been pointed out, it is very little different to the price when first released some years ago. Most retailers will automatically apply the maximum initially allowed 15% discount from arrival in stock so they will immediately be available for about £127.50 after discount.
@Roy L S £152.95 is the discounted price. RRP is £179.95 (according to Rails website)
Thanks Mick,
I should have checked but instead didn't question that it was the RRP being quoted which is my "bad".
Even still, substituting the Castle's correct £179.95 RRP for the one I used, the argument isn't completely invalid as it still compares very well to the inflation adjusted £172 RRP for the very "agricultural" and hugely inferior Poole Farish A4 we could have had in 1999.
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion and all will be constrained by what they are either able or willing to pay for a given model, but just because something is above a person's price ceiling doesn't mean it is the price that is wrong.
Roy
Kadar, the company that own Bachmann and manufacture all the locos, have made a loss over the last year or so. I therefore don't think you can accuse them of profiteering by charging too much.
There is also the impact of US Tariffs on China manufactured goods destined for the US that is yet to be felt in terms of production. That could work for UK and continental modellers if more production slots become available, but equally it could work against if the factory hikes prices to make up for lost revenue from the US.
Roy
Up to a point, I agree.
The problem for me is that these aren't products at price points that will attract new blood into the hobby. If you're using an inflation calculator to work out what the model would have cost you in 1990, you're not new blood.
Almost all of the brand new models I've been buying have been Japanese N scale. At least in Japan, you can get an EF66 with two coaches from Tomix for an RRP of about £70 and as low as £45 in some shops. Throw in a loop of Unitrack (or Tomix's equivalent) and you've got a nice set-up that a kid could realistically ask from Santa. Or maybe save up some birthday money. Either way, affordable.
For sure, Tomix (and Kato) make compromises. You have to fit the number plates and maker plates yourself, and some of the hand rails and horns are on sprues as well. There's no DCC slot let alone provision for DCC sound. But these models aren't Hornby 'Smokey Joe' level of tat: they have all the right dimensions (except, of course, gauge!) and authentic liveries, plus famously reliable mechanisms that don't require fettling.
But still, I desperately believe that Bachmann need to make some low-end, but nice, models that can be sold as a starter pack for under £100. It's not just price they need to think about, but strategy. They need to be setting up train sets in shopping malls and department stores where kids can see them. They need to have affordable starer packs sold in shops that don't otherwise sell model trains.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: njee20 on August 07, 2025, 08:30:23 AM£150 seems like a fair price to me. What do you believe is the right price? I'm confused by "for a loco like this" - it's a (relatively) newly tooled, highly detailed model with sound compatibility and everything I'd expect of a modern model. What model would justify that price in your mind? Plus you save 20% VAT anyway!
Quote from: NeMo on August 07, 2025, 01:46:07 PMUp to a point, I agree.
The problem for me is that these aren't products at price points that will attract new blood into the hobby. If you're using an inflation calculator to work out what the model would have cost you in 1990, you're not new blood.
Almost all of the brand new models I've been buying have been Japanese N scale. At least in Japan, you can get an EF66 with two coaches from Tomix for an RRP of about £70 and as low as £45 in some shops. Throw in a loop of Unitrack (or Tomix's equivalent) and you've got a nice set-up that a kid could realistically ask from Santa. Or maybe save up some birthday money. Either way, affordable.
For sure, Tomix (and Kato) make compromises. You have to fit the number plates and maker plates yourself, and some of the hand rails and horns are on sprues as well. There's no DCC slot let alone provision for DCC sound. But these models aren't Hornby 'Smokey Joe' level of tat: they have all the right dimensions (except, of course, gauge!) and authentic liveries, plus famously reliable mechanisms that don't require fettling.
But still, I desperately believe that Bachmann need to make some low-end, but nice, models that can be sold as a starter pack for under £100. It's not just price they need to think about, but strategy. They need to be setting up train sets in shopping malls and department stores where kids can see them. They need to have affordable starer packs sold in shops that don't otherwise sell model trains.
Cheers, NeMo
However it is also true to say that Japan is one of, if not
the largest marked for N Gauge products and the production volumes are very significantly greater than they are for the British N market. As with any product, be it a toaster, a mobile phone, or a model loco, the larger the volume produced the lower the unit price will be. For those who want to model Japanese prototypes that is of course good news, but for those (I would think the vast majority on this Forum for a start) who model or would wish to model British outline, the comparison isn't all that relevant.
I do agree that an affordable starter set, as Hornby are doing with the very basic TT120 "Branch Line Freight" with a down to a price B4 tank loco (looking very "Smoky Joe" to me) and a couple of very generic wagons, could be a good idea: -
https://railsofsheffield.com/products/hornby-tt1005m-branchline-freight-train-set?
In fact not so long ago Farish used to do the very cheap "Gaffer" entry level set, along these lines, but I am not sure if this kind of thing is part of the current Bachmann marketing philosophy which I accept is the very point you are making.
Roy
Hi all,
Roy is right.
By far the biggest factor in the price of any model is the number of units you expect to make.
If your tooling costs $100,000 (not unsusual for a loco) and you only expect to sell 2000 then each loco will cost $50 before you even add in the cost of design, manufacture, shipping and of course VAT.
And then you have to add in profit to pay salaries, maintain a warehouse or office, fund new model development, attend exhibitions etc etc.
The population of Japan is approx twice that of the UK and N is the dominant scale. Plus model trains are cool there. (Admittedly they are less 'uncool' here than they used to be as people come to understand the mental health advantages of a creative pastime.)
Kato will not produce anything with a production run of less than 10,000 units. A Revolution run will be barely a quarter of that; sometimes significantly less.
And relatively inexpensive Kato sets are available from time to time. This one is £115:
https://railsofsheffield.com/products/gaugemaster-collection-gm2000105-br-industrial-freight-starter-set-wagon-set?_pos=6&_sid=9b6ca8d61&_ss=r&_fid=b6fbe06df
That all being said, I do agree that as a collective the model railway industry could be better at getting its products under the noses of the general public. It's one reason Revolution attended the Greatest Gathering last weekend - a good opportunity to show our products to a non-railway modelling audience. And Rails of Sheffield are taking a retail unit at Sheffield station as an experiment:
https://tinyurl.com/yc8satje
cheers
Ben A.
Quote from: Roy L S on August 07, 2025, 02:08:06 PMHowever it is also true to say that Japan is one of, if not the largest marked for N Gauge products and the production volumes are very significantly greater than they are for the British N market. As with any product, be it a toaster, a mobile phone, or a model loco, the larger the volume produced the lower the unit price will be. For those who want to model Japanese prototypes that is of course good news, but for those (I would think the vast majority on this Forum for a start) who model or would wish to model British outline, the comparison isn't all that relevant.
I know that Roy, but by concern is that the UK industry uses this as an excuse (or at least a justification) for endlessly going after the same market. When I walk around TINGS, I feel like a youngster -- and I'm in my 50s! What I don't see (with all due respect to Ben's comment about the Gathering) is much of a coherent plan to grow the market outside of what already exists.
My comparison with the Japanese market was more about how you don't see endless pursuit of high fidelity models at the cost of affordability and reliability -- which is, I think, what the UK market does. Is there any reason why a dimensionally accurate Class 47 or 66 with moulded details and a reliable mechanism couldn't be turned out for under £100?
Hornby's 'Railroad' brand comes in for a lot of stick, but when I talk to kids who model railways, those are the models they buy. Heck, the son of a family friend visited the other day and he was proudly showing off his secondhand Mainline models! Young people are under all sorts of financial constrains these days, and if Bachmann doesn't adapt to that, I don't see them growing the hobby.
I'm somewhat involved with Kato's 'Diorama Circus' thing which goes to schools, among other places, and encourages youngsters and 'non-modellers' to create whimsical micro-layouts that connect up at train shows into one giant layout. The kits are cheap, and while they're not everyone's cup of tea, they are an example of way companies can try to go after people who wouldn't have the time, space, or money to build a 'proper' layout.
Honestly, I think Bachmann have announced some lovely products and hope they sell well. It's just that I'd also like to see them be more creative about growing the market, not just satisfying the market that currently exists.
Cheers, NeMo
is there some way to re shape these posts to fit the usual page size ?
It's the Rails URL in Ben's post, needs trimming! New page now, so order restored!
Quote from: NeMo on August 07, 2025, 04:07:24 PMI know that Roy, but by concern is that the UK industry uses this as an excuse (or at least a justification) for endlessly going after the same market. When I walk around TINGS, I feel like a youngster -- and I'm in my 50s! What I don't see (with all due respect to Ben's comment about the Gathering) is much of a coherent plan to grow the market outside of what already exists.
My comparison with the Japanese market was more about how you don't see endless pursuit of high fidelity models at the cost of affordability and reliability -- which is, I think, what the UK market does. Is there any reason why a dimensionally accurate Class 47 or 66 with moulded details and a reliable mechanism couldn't be turned out for under £100?
Because, like Ben said, the tooling cost is massive. Tooling a simple model isn't going to be markedly cheaper than a complex one (when it comes to something like a 66), but you risk disengaging existing modellers who don't want a low-detail model; so what's the market for the hypothetical 'railroad' 66? The market is awash with Farish and Dapol 66s, or Farish 47s. If Revolution sell 3000 of an all-singing and dancing one are there 6000 people waiting in the wings to buy a 'cheap' one? I'm not convinced.
Have you seen how much games consoles (and games) are? Price is not a barrier to entry for younger people in any meaningful sense IMO.
Quote from: Bigmac on August 07, 2025, 07:19:17 PMis there some way to re shape these posts to fit the usual page size ?
Sorted. Ben's huge URL given the shrink treatment
Quote from: njee20 on August 07, 2025, 07:56:11 PMHave you seen how much games consoles (and games) are? Price is not a barrier to entry for younger people in any meaningful sense IMO.
As someone who keeps up with the gaming news, there's more of a shift of gamers going towards cheaper and older games as of late, mostly due the Triple A gaming industry continues to pump out sub-par products that cost far too much and have micro-transactions designed to drain your bank balance.
It's something around 70+% of PC gamers playing games older than 6 years, and the most successful games as of late have been the more affordable independently developed games around the £20-40 price range, even some around £10 becoming quite popular as well.
Then there's the frequent seasonal sales as well when you can pick up something which use to be £60 at less than £10, outside of the whales and the "MUST HAVE" titles, gamers will wait for a sale to buy something.
Quote from: njee20 on August 07, 2025, 07:56:11 PMI'm not convinced.
Indeed, and I understand your points entirely. But my concern is that the UK N scale hobby is looking at a declining market and ageing demographic, and responding, like Ned Flanders' dad, with 'We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas'. They seem to be doing the same thing over and over and over: transition-era steam and diesel for the nostalgic modeller who grew up back then, and a sprinkling of super-high detail (often semi-permanently coupled) models of those with deep pockets and big houses.
Britain is struggling with the vast difference in lived experiences between those in their teens and 20s compared with those in their 60s and 70s. The country feels very different to those two demographics. The industry doesn't seem to have adapted to that. It focuses on the one, but has (as far as I can tell) absolutely no idea how to engage with the other.
My fervent wish isn't for a 'Railroad' 66 to cannibalise sales of the high-end ones from Dapol or Farish, but an enterprising company to sell 'Railroad' sets containing a basic 66 and a few wagons to children and teenagers who couldn't afford the Dapol or Farish ones. My observation of the Japanese models is that it's perfectly possible to make models that are dimensionally correct but have economies made in terms of fitted details. Where UK modellers expect their locos to have all the bits fitted already, Japanese modellers are used to fitting those details themselves, or else having them moulded to cut costs.
I admit, that unlike Ben I don't have any skin in the game. So, I may need to content myself with watching the UK N scale marketplace get smaller and older as the years pass. I know a handful of children and teenagers with model trains: not one of them models in N scale. Part of that is that they simply didn't know it existed, and when they got 'into trains', their families bought them Hornby stuff that was sold in toy shops or from Argos.
Cheers, NeMo
Quote from: NeMo on August 08, 2025, 10:28:00 AMQuote from: njee20 on August 07, 2025, 07:56:11 PMI'm not convinced.
Indeed, and I understand your points entirely. But my concern is that the UK N scale hobby is looking at a declining market and ageing demographic, and responding, like Ned Flanders' dad, with 'We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas'. They seem to be doing the same thing over and over and over: transition-era steam and diesel for the nostalgic modeller who grew up back then, and a sprinkling of super-high detail (often semi-permanently coupled) models of those with deep pockets and big houses.
Britain is struggling with the vast difference in lived experiences between those in their teens and 20s compared with those in their 60s and 70s. The country feels very different to those two demographics. The industry doesn't seem to have adapted to that. It focuses on the one, but has (as far as I can tell) absolutely no idea how to engage with the other.
My fervent wish isn't for a 'Railroad' 66 to cannibalise sales of the high-end ones from Dapol or Farish, but an enterprising company to sell 'Railroad' sets containing a basic 66 and a few wagons to children and teenagers who couldn't afford the Dapol or Farish ones. My observation of the Japanese models is that it's perfectly possible to make models that are dimensionally correct but have economies made in terms of fitted details. Where UK modellers expect their locos to have all the bits fitted already, Japanese modellers are used to fitting those details themselves, or else having them moulded to cut costs.
I admit, that unlike Ben I don't have any skin in the game. So, I may need to content myself with watching the UK N scale marketplace get smaller and older as the years pass. I know a handful of children and teenagers with model trains: not one of them models in N scale. Part of that is that they simply didn't know it existed, and when they got 'into trains', their families bought them Hornby stuff that was sold in toy shops or from Argos.
Cheers, NeMo
It is perhaps worth remembering that the majority (if not all) of the Hornby "Railroad" range has it's origins in older tooling from a variety of origins including Lima. This tooling will have originally have been for "main" range models in years gone by and the cost of it amortised long ago. With only minor upgrades such as a better motor bogie, DCC interface and in some cases fitting for rudimentary sound, the long paid for tooling gives Hornby the means to facilitate a cheaper range of models by "sweating" otherwise redundant assets.
In OO there is the critical mass to support the "cheap" Railroad range alongside their main super-detailed models as the Market is four or five times bigger than N, whereas in the smaller scale there is a risk it would divide the market for a given model rendering neither viable.
The 66 is possibly an exception, I re-watched N Gauge News's interview from Bachmann's Richard Proudman last year just yesterday, and when asked about duplication, his view was that the 66 is probably only one of a few locos in N with a large enough Market to make two models viable.
So maybe the answer is to test the water with one basic model/set? However as people will expect lights, a DCC interface and at least some provision for sound, even with simpler body tooling and (say) a largely clip together chassis that might save a few pence on assembly, for a given volume of models and remembering Ben's comments that volume is key to bringing down price, are there actually significant savings to be made doing that?
It is true that N is not targeted at the "toy" end of model railways, based on demand, manufacturers are producing ever more detailed and technically sophisticated models, and more than ever are being produced in British N by a range of manufacturers that is greater than it has ever been in the past. I am of the strong belief that it is not that the Market is shrinking, rather that supply and choice is increasing faster than the Market can grow.
Roy
Quote from: JimSan on August 07, 2025, 10:08:45 PMQuote from: njee20 on August 07, 2025, 07:56:11 PMHave you seen how much games consoles (and games) are? Price is not a barrier to entry for younger people in any meaningful sense IMO.
As someone who keeps up with the gaming news, there's more of a shift of gamers going towards cheaper and older games as of late, mostly due the Triple A gaming industry continues to pump out sub-par products that cost far too much and have micro-transactions designed to drain your bank balance.
It's something around 70+% of PC gamers playing games older than 6 years, and the most successful games as of late have been the more affordable independently developed games around the £20-40 price range, even some around £10 becoming quite popular as well.
Then there's the frequent seasonal sales as well when you can pick up something which use to be £60 at less than £10, outside of the whales and the "MUST HAVE" titles, gamers will wait for a sale to buy something.
That's interesting. My (wholly anecdotal) understanding is that PC gaming is more common among adults, whilst consoles are more used by the 'younger generation'. PC gaming has the potential to be far more expensive after all. I'm not surprised about a backlash against micro-transactions!
Quote from: NeMo on August 08, 2025, 10:28:00 AMQuote from: njee20 on August 07, 2025, 07:56:11 PMI'm not convinced.
Indeed, and I understand your points entirely. But my concern is that the UK N scale hobby is looking at a declining market and ageing demographic, and responding, like Ned Flanders' dad, with 'We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas'. They seem to be doing the same thing over and over and over: transition-era steam and diesel for the nostalgic modeller who grew up back then, and a sprinkling of super-high detail (often semi-permanently coupled) models of those with deep pockets and big houses.
Britain is struggling with the vast difference in lived experiences between those in their teens and 20s compared with those in their 60s and 70s. The country feels very different to those two demographics. The industry doesn't seem to have adapted to that. It focuses on the one, but has (as far as I can tell) absolutely no idea how to engage with the other.
My fervent wish isn't for a 'Railroad' 66 to cannibalise sales of the high-end ones from Dapol or Farish, but an enterprising company to sell 'Railroad' sets containing a basic 66 and a few wagons to children and teenagers who couldn't afford the Dapol or Farish ones. My observation of the Japanese models is that it's perfectly possible to make models that are dimensionally correct but have economies made in terms of fitted details. Where UK modellers expect their locos to have all the bits fitted already, Japanese modellers are used to fitting those details themselves, or else having them moulded to cut costs.
I admit, that unlike Ben I don't have any skin in the game. So, I may need to content myself with watching the UK N scale marketplace get smaller and older as the years pass. I know a handful of children and teenagers with model trains: not one of them models in N scale. Part of that is that they simply didn't know it existed, and when they got 'into trains', their families bought them Hornby stuff that was sold in toy shops or from Argos.
Cheers, NeMo
There's a lot to unpack there. Whilst I accept Ben is not wholly disinterested in this discussion, I think his point is very pertinent. You're still suggesting that Japanese models are cheaper because of more moulded parts and therefore simpler tooling. Whilst that will definitely be a factor, the biggest one, given tooling cost is fixed, is that they make far larger batches. Double the batch size, half the fixed unit costs. 10x the batch, and 1/10 the cost. Therefore surely the biggest factor by far is finding those people who want to buy a low-detail 66 and some wagons? Dimensional accuracy is a red herring, it costs no more to make an 'accurate' loco than an inaccurate one, save for a tiny investment in research.
I am not convinced by the health of UK N gauge presently, but I don't ascribe this to an ageing membership base. Many new releases seem to end up in the bargain bins (Farish 90s, 319s, Dapol 59s), and that becomes a vicious circle; "I won't pay full price now, I'll wait 6 months until it's cheap...". The new models from the established brands don't seem to be racing through; no seen decorated samples of 66s from Dapol, the 87 is still a way off, the BoB/WC was re-started and slated for Q3 25 delivery and again, no decorated samples are there? Every quarter the hopes are high for new Farish models and we get an NER coal wagon, which I'm sure someone is excited about, somewhere. Interestingly Stephen McCarron (MD of Accurascale) stated on Facebook this week that the UK N gauge market has 'declined to roughly 5% of the market'. He didn't cite sources, and ultimately he's invested in the OO gauge market, so that narrative suits, whether true or not.
Maybe cost of living is a factor. That's pretty acute right now, but that won't be affecting N gauge exclusively.
My arc is probably very typical, my dad had N gauge in the in the early 90s, I had OO gauge. I drifted away from it when I was 12-13, and got back into trains about 10 years ago in my 20s when I had my own place. I'm not sure you can fight that.
My (8 year old) son is train mad. He has N gauge, mainly so he can use my stock! I never really gave him a say in this, when he wanted a 'trainset' I built him one with Unitrack, because I didn't want to buy him OO! I fully expect him to drift away as I did, and to hopefully come back in due course. In his class at school I know of one other child who has a small amount of OO, and one other who 'likes' trains (insofar as he knows he goes on an Azuma to visit family and that 'our' trains are Electrostars). Price isn't a barrier; many of them have games consoles, mufti-day sees a sea of the very latest football kits being worn etc. This is a village school in an affluent area of Sussex. Trains just aren't appealing, and I'm not sure that anything specifically aimed at enticing the younger generation will be effective, it's still trains. You can control them with tablets and phones. There are games like Train Sim World out there which blend trains and gaming, but I don't see them being played either.
I think it's unfair to say 'manufacturers simply aren't trying', nor do I think their inaction is actively hurting the hobby (whether you infer from that "N gauge" or "model railways" the point still stands). It's simply an immutable truth that model railways are a hobby dominated by older people with the time and dispoable income.
IMO
Quote from: NeMo on August 08, 2025, 10:28:00 AMSo, I may need to content myself with watching the UK N scale marketplace get smaller and older as the years pass.
Have you any empirical evidence to support that assertion (that the British marketplace is getting smaller)?
My understanding is that the current thinking and claims, often from national press and news/media reports (although probably mostly conjecture), is that hobbies, including railway modelling, are enjoying a revival and are growing following claims a few years ago that railway modelling was dead (or dying).
Quote from: njee20 on August 08, 2025, 12:01:30 PMTherefore surely the biggest factor by far is finding those people who want to buy a low-detail 66 and some wagons? Dimensional accuracy is a red herring, it costs no more to make an 'accurate' loco than an inaccurate one, save for a tiny investment in research.
Agreed, but my argument is more about, say, if Farish dusted off an old Poole-era model or deliberately created a new moulding that was poor (to avoid competing with their higher-end model) we'd get nowhere. So, just to be clear, what I'm advocating is a good model with moulded details, so the expense of separately fitted details or complex liveries can be avoided.
Quote from: njee20 on August 08, 2025, 12:01:30 PMI am not convinced by the health of UK N gauge presently, but I don't ascribe this to an ageing membership base.
I'm not convinced either, but I would be happy to be persuaded the average age of the railway modeller is no higher than it was 40 years ago. But an amble around TINGS doesn't fill me with confidence on that front.
Quote from: njee20 on August 08, 2025, 12:01:30 PMMany new releases seem to end up in the bargain bins (Farish 90s, 319s, Dapol 59s), and that becomes a vicious circle; "I won't pay full price now, I'll wait 6 months until it's cheap...".
Indeed, but I'll add a couple of other observations. Firstly, you rarely see the transition-era stuff discounted so deeply. BR steam seems to sell well. I know the argument that the transition-era is the best of all worlds, but I think some of it is nostalgia-driven, indicating the age of the modeller. Secondly, a lot of Bachmann's recent stuff has just been too expensive to sell quickly in large batches. I just don't think the market for modern image EMUs and whatnot is as big as Bachmann think it is; at least, not at the prices/features they're retailing their models at.
Quote from: njee20 on August 08, 2025, 12:01:30 PMInterestingly Stephen McCarron (MD of Accurascale) stated on Facebook this week that the UK N gauge market has 'declined to roughly 5% of the market'. He didn't cite sources, and ultimately he's invested in the OO gauge market, so that narrative suits, whether true or not.
Wouldn't surprise me in the least. I'd be interested to know if TT:120 has cannibalised the N scale market at all. I know that was a fear when it was announced. Presumably, only Hornby know how quickly that market has grown.
Quote from: njee20 on August 08, 2025, 12:01:30 PMMaybe cost of living is a factor. That's pretty acute right now, but that won't be affecting N gauge exclusively.
True, but the way you handle price-sensitive shoppers isn't to ignore them, which is what, I think, the N scale hobby has been doing. Ben pointed out that 'starter set' from Gaugemaster, but of course, that uses a (completely fictional) Kato locomotive! Why haven't Dapol or Farish done something similar using one of their Pannier tanks or something? Because their locos are too expensive for a cheap starter set, that's why. Ah, but we don't have the volumes here to make the cost of basic Pannier under £50 says Bachmann! Well, no, and you never will if you don't grow the market. It's a vicious circle. I wonder if something of the Gillette approach is needed here: all but give away the starter loco, and make the profit on the extras the modeller buys after that initial purchase.
Quote from: njee20 on August 08, 2025, 12:01:30 PMMy arc is probably very typical, my dad had N gauge in the in the early 90s, I had OO gauge. I drifted away from it when I was 12-13, and got back into trains about 10 years ago in my 20s when I had my own place. I'm not sure you can fight that.
No, and this is 100% my concern. I bet most modellers stay with the scale they started with. Not all, sure. I didn't. But the average modeller likely does, because once you start investing in a scale, you lose most if not all of that if you switch to a different one. Yes, controllers and some scenics can be used in different scales, but not the locos and rolling stock. If N wants to grow, it has to attract the younger modellers and hope they stick with it.
Quote from: njee20 on August 08, 2025, 12:01:30 PMI think it's unfair to say 'manufacturers simply aren't trying', nor do I think their inaction is actively hurting the hobby (whether you infer from that "N gauge" or "model railways" the point still stands). It's simply an immutable truth that model railways are a hobby dominated by older people with the time and dispoable income.
Understood, but it didn't used to be that way when there was a model shop on every high street. It isn't in Japan, which is surely the most technology-mad country on Earth -- so it's not just about mobile phones and online gaming.
I'm not trying to be unfair on the manufacturers since they are, after all, the ones risking their capital -- not me. What I am asking them is to ask themselves "What are you doing to attract 12-year-olds into the hobby". If the answer is "Nothing specific," then that's not going to help.
Cheers, NeMo
Not sure there's a good answer to this conundrum, or how anyone with no existing family/friend interest gets into trains. My route was the fairly typical one of following my dad's hobby.
As Ben mentioned, there's been a lot more mainstream exposure for model railways in the recent past but the peak of TV exposure seems to have tailed off now. Obviously Ben is infinitely more qualified to comment in the area of the media, let alone manufacturing, than me.
So assuming that new interest is likely to be a chance visit to a show or occasional event such as the GG, then it seems obvious, with the benefit of striking whilst the iron's hot, that there needs to be something available to buy at a reasonable price, reasonable meaning many different things to many different people. Not been to a big show for a while now but, unless things have changed, N doesn't fare well in the competition for space on retailer stands. TINGS is an obvious exception but it's hardly in a location where its going to pick up impulse passing trade.
Just looked and the cheapest Farish set (pannier, 3 wagons, controller track) is £190 so possibly available around £150 or a bit less with usual discounts and maybe a show deal. I'm really not sure how they can do it much cheaper. Interesting that all sets show as available on the Bachmann site. I've only ever bought one train set, the Farish Highlander set. That wasn't because I wanted a set, I wanted the 37 and coaches, and I wonder if that's fairly typical of a fair proportion of their set sales. There was a spin off there for Farish and others as it was my first DCC loco and got me hooked
I get the theory of a less detailed loco, say a 66, but you also need wagons including separate models to build the first train and then a second. Suitable wagons are not those from Peco or dapol for a tenner or less. Those are old (very old in peco's case) tooling and their newest stuff isnt much different to Farish pricing.
So you're now looking at multiple tooling and a retail price pushing up and up to put together a basic starter set.
If I dare mention TT120, at launch it had a visible champion in Simon Kohler, and Hornby basically "owned" the scale with notable support from peco, but that enabled them to reach out to new markets, knowing any sales would be Hornby. There are notable Champions of the Scale in N beyond just their products, Ben and the team being an obvious example, but its a far more diluted market.
So much as a "railroad" starter set is a good idea in theory, I don't see who is in a position to risk the investment. Where does that leave n? I suspect as a scale that's adopted as people's interest gets more serious alonside those who start with n due to an influence, the side project that gets people hooked. Is that enough alongside the old blokes like me, who knows but there's still a lot of new stuff being produced in N. Maybe less from Farish than there was 15 years ago but that was before Revolution, Sonic, Rapido.
Apologies for rambling on, a lot of words to basically say I don't know
"Interestingly Stephen McCarron (MD of Accurascale) stated on Facebook this week that the UK N gauge market has 'declined to roughly 5% of the market'. He didn't cite sources, and ultimately he's invested in the OO gauge market, so that narrative suits, whether true or not".
I would personally take what Mr McCarron said with a pretty large pinch of salt. Accurascale quite publicly stated that they have no plans to enter the N market probably two years ago and as a OO manufacturer (with the exception of one O product?) it would therefore suit their narrative completely to downplay the size of the N market.
If you listen to Bachmann's Richard Proudman's comments when interviewed by N Gauge News a year or so ago, he said that it was more a case that British N hadn't grown in market share as had been hoped, not that it had declined. The very fact that they are prepared to commit a six figure sum in tooling locos like the LMS "Twins" and forthcoming V2 indicates to me that they have confidence in the scale or bluntly they wouldn't be doing it.
I would contend that it is far too early to tell if TT120 will impact on OO, N or both for Market share, or indeed carve a niche of it's own as (1) the product range, while slowly growing is still much smaller than OO or N and (2)there isn't yet anything like the broad "ecosystem" that exists in established scales and I reckon it will be another 3 to 5 years before that is clearer. However I have noticed that even some of the newer TT120 locos like the Duchesses are being pretty aggressively discounted and that is either to shift volume, grow market share in the scale or possibly a bit of both, but from a ROI and shareholder perspective, giving up margin to grow sales only works for so long.
What the longer term prognosis for British N is I wouldn't care to speculate, but that goes for the model railway market in general too. I would be prepared to predict that it will still exist as a buoyant mainstream scale in 10 years time, but beyond that there are too many variables to consider, including disposable incomes, the shape of the global economy, technological advances and other "distractions".
In terms of demographic though, I think it fair to say that many young modellers today will begin in OO and then migrate to other scales including N as they get older as has always been the case. So, while there may be some merit in a small range of keenly priced basic entry level sets, I think part of what has re-ignited the popularity of the scale from the doldrums of the early "noughties" is the quality and detail of the models we are seeing now. For many years (and I have been modelling in N for a long time) British N and the Poole Farish products in particular were seen as a very poor relation to those produced in OO, but with the introduction of the much better quality super-detailed models from Dapol and Bachmann from about 2006 that perception changed completely and it now has credibility as a very serous modelling scale.
Personally, and as I have already said, I do not think it is the case that the size of the British N market is contracting, I think what is happening is that we are seeing more products than ever from a bigger range of manufacturers spreading the more inelastic N Gauge modeller's budget amongst more choices. So, unless a model is something mega popular or quirky it will be a bigger challenge to sell volume of any given product. I do think it is entirely possible that from the current "peak" we will still see a decent volume of new products going forward, but not as many as currently and possibly more carefully considered at an individual level.
Roy
I found that Accurascale quote interesting too Roy and you're right, it could be mentioned for all sorts of reasons.
I don't have any OO stuff but the scale does seem to be going through a golden era. More and more, sometimes obscure prototypes available rtr, 2-3 options for many diesel classes (with many an argument on other forums over the quality of each which leave me wondering if some modellers know how lucky they are)
There's also been growth in rtr O and the introduction of tt120, whatever market share it might have.
I've heard the n share quoted between 10 and 20% in the past and would not be surprised if the n share has fallen. But you can often prove whatever you like with numbers and a, say, 5% drop in market share is far from automatically a 5% drop in overall sales.
What goes around comes around and any boom in a particular scale, perceived or not, will level out in time.
If n was really in the doldrums, I wouldn't have 47s, 66s, a 313, and of all things, tube stock on pre-order. I wouldnt have a caledonian sleeper and caroline added to my stock in the last couple of years, or a Co-bo, or a sound fitted 08, 31 and 2mt. In the past the immanent recent arrival of such models, and yes, pre-grouping stock from more than one manufacturer would have been considered a particularly shiny golden era and that's what I pretty much see it as now when looking at the scale as a whole.
Agreed on the Accurascale quote, hence saying that it suits their narrative, and agreed that a decline in market share, even if true, doesn't necessarily equal a decline in absolute sales. The conversation also turned to O, where it was noted that has shrunk right back after a buoyant few years (which I can absolutely believe).
I can't see TT making a huge impact on N. At the moment the range simply lacks cohesion, and although a few people are concertedly trying to make a go of it it's pretty hard, and dominated by 'trainset' people who are happy to have their 66 pulling some 7-plank wagons and a BR petrol tanker. Suits me, I'd say 80% of sales of 3D printed wagons are in TT at the moment for those who do want proper modern stock ;D Revolution's entry will be interesting there, as will Heljan's, but I still don't see it really impacting N any time soon. Perhaps naively.
Quote from: Suffolk Rob on August 08, 2025, 02:53:02 PMIf n was really in the doldrums, I wouldn't have 47s, 66s, a 313, and of all things, tube stock on pre-order. I wouldnt have a caledonian sleeper and caroline added to my stock in the last couple of years, or a Co-bo, or a sound fitted 08, 31 and 2mt. In the past the immanent recent arrival of such models, and yes, pre-grouping stock from more than one manufacturer would have been considered a particularly shiny golden era and that's what I pretty much see it as now when looking at the scale as a whole.
I haven't personally said it's "in the doldrums", nor is that what I think, but just running through those items:
- 47: Farish, but 4 different liveries available at Rails, with up to 40% off
- 66: Revolution. As I noted, Dapol have been tight-lipped on theirs. Their release announcement said they were due in shops in Q2 2024. We still don't have decorated samples 18 months after that
- 313: Revolution
- tube stock: Revolution
- Caledonian sleeper: Revolution
- Caroline: Revolution
So from that list we can agree that Revolution are huge supporters of N! That's a good thing, don't get me wrong; I have (probably too) many of their models, but that isn't the same as N gauge being in rude health. The others you list I think are mainly Farish to be fair, I'm not saying they've abandoned N by any stretch.
In the doldrums is my choice of words, not an interpretation of anyone else's.
I agree with an awful lot of what you say
@njee20, I don't think Farish quite have the balance right with the range of choice in their latest diesel releases. I suspect it's an attempt to "work" limited production slots but has resulted in a lot of 08s, some 31s, 158s and 2mt with big reductions.
Yes, a lot of what I listed is Revolution, but some decent supply of new tooling or upgrades that match my interests recently from Farish too.
I guess the important point is that, 20 years ago, we were totally dependent on Farish, far from the case now
I've taken a hard look at my ability and time and decided that my N gauge modelling will for me be the older transition era steam, diesel and SR EMUs, as well as my attempts at making 3D prints work for me, and in OO I will have blue-grey RTR EMUs and locos with DCC sound. Simple choice. Practicality.
As far as Farish models not selling, I've tried to do my bit.
I've got 4 Freightliner sound equipped CL90's, and both Northern sound equipped CL158's.
I passed on the CL319 as the Northern Electrics livery lasted about 5 minutes, but I'd have a couple of Northern CL769's in today's livery if they were made.
I think one issue for manufacturers is that since privatisation there's much more diversity and fragmentation on railways akin to the pre-grouping era. So that the market for modern(ish) models is tempered by either the wide range of liveries needed or limited geographical reach, or both.
Plus the other big problem for electrics is the lack of a comprehensive set OHLE equipment, especially as N-Brass is no more.
Regards,
John P
Quote from: jpendle on August 08, 2025, 07:57:56 PM..
Plus the other big problem for electrics is the lack of a comprehensive set OHLE equipment, especially as N-Brass is no more.
...
West Hill Wagon Works are giving it a go.
Me too, just listed this lot on eBay! Six different styles of portal with 3 different styles of registration arm!
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/154/1147-080825211222.jpeg)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/154/1147-080825211300.jpeg)
The West Hill stuff looks like the GW stuff.
@njee where do I find you on ebay?
And are these print to order or ready to ship?
Regards,
John P
They're here John: https://ebay.us/m/ONROnN
Printed to order, but I can get them out to you before the tariff deadline I reckon! Drop me a pm and we can sort it if you're interested, saves you paying eBay GSP rates too!
@njee Do you fancy trying to print these?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/eiXZnL5zNwn8kwvGA
:D :o
John P
Quote from: jpendle on August 08, 2025, 10:42:01 PM@njee Do you fancy trying to print these?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/eiXZnL5zNwn8kwvGA
:D :o
John P
Have you considered 3D knitting?! :D
Quote from: jpendle on August 08, 2025, 10:42:01 PM@njee Do you fancy trying to print these?
https://maps.app.goo.gl/eiXZnL5zNwn8kwvGA
:D :o
John P
Headspans are really hard, there's just not enough rigidity in the material. I do have an idea - I can give it a go, but my hopes are low!
Not quite an Autumn 25 announcement but my collectors' club conflat turned up in the post today.
Nice little wagon which has been retooled to add NEM coupling sockets.
Mildly surprised with the tooling revision that there weren't a couple of examples in Wednesday's announcements whilst they had the tooling out. Maybe one for December.
Quote from: NeMo on August 08, 2025, 10:28:00 AMcompany to sell 'Railroad' sets containing a basic 66 and a few wagons to children and teenagers who couldn't afford the Dapol or Farish ones.
How? Look at the poverty figures and the rental figures and the statistical data sets from the government.
Most people with children are living in undersized rental homes and can scarcely make the rent. They get forced to move every couple of years.
There's a reason that everything is online - you can take an android tablet with you when you move (again) and it fits in the room hardly bigger than a bed with two kids in it.
There used to be an argument that N was good because it reflected modern house sizes. That's kind of true for older folks but no longer for a lot of others.
Also whoever above said kids can afford games is confused. The 60 quid games are bought by middle aged mostly men or very well off parents. Most kids are playing free to play games or games they got off steam sales or epic or amazon giveaways or low cost deals.
Lots of kids play with model trains, but they play with them online because they don't have to keep paying for an extra wagon, they don't have to take it apart every night, and it can move with them every time they get evicted.
To a large extent none of this is new either - the primary market for model railways has always been 50+ people wanting to re-create their pre-teen years. It's the same for heritage railways too - right now it's maroon, when I was a kid it was big four, in a few years BR blue will be the new cool (it's already starting to happen). In time people will be remembering the "good old days" of regional railways 8)
Quote from: njee20 on August 08, 2025, 12:01:30 PMThat's interesting. My (wholly anecdotal) understanding is that PC gaming is more common among adults, whilst consoles are more used by the 'younger generation'. PC gaming has the potential to be far more expensive after all. I'm not surprised about a backlash against micro-transactions!
Tablet/phone based gaming is the primary gaming platform if you look across the whole market. It's affordable to the masses.
Quote from: EtchedPixels on Yesterday at 03:13:49 PMHow? Look at the poverty figures and the rental figures and the statistical data sets from the government.
Most people with children are living in undersized rental homes and can scarcely make the rent. They get forced to move every couple of years.
I think that is overly pessimistic. They reckon 21% are living in relative poverty in the UK. And this is the UK definition of poverty and is nothing like the poverty you will see in developing countries. 65% of people in the UK own their houses. Both my children (and their partners) have ordinary jobs and they have managed to buy a house without my financial help. The news likes to spread gloom rather than optimism and I think this is a big problem. If you keep telling people things are difficult they will believe it.
A few pages back there was a comment about too much transition and steam era. I think N does pretty well for modern items that reflect the contemporary scene. I'm old but I still like running contemporary from time to time. What's more I can do this in N without any problem. Perhaps we need to push this more; I certainly did my bit in Model Rail a couple of years back. Whilst I'm an old codger and my favourite era is the late 1960s I still take an interest in real railways today and enjoy running current day stock because it is easy to relate to them. Maybe more of us posting current day layouts on Facebook and youtube might help to inspire younger folk?
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/154/3123-110825162844.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=154226)
Quote from: Chris Morris on Yesterday at 04:13:27 PMI think that is overly pessimistic. They reckon 21% are living in relative poverty in the UK.
This was about appealing to children. Over 40% of children in the UK are either classed as "absolute low income" or "relative low income". 78000 families with children are in temporary/emergency accommodation.
This isn't the place to get into the whys and wherefores but the reality is that the market for model trains for children isn't a good one, and making cheaper N gauge stuff won't help. For another thing it's nearly impossible to make an N scale model pass any level of child safety requirements whereas the old crude OO mouldings without small separate fittings actually are big enough.
The market is (and to varying extents has always been) well off older people mostly men.
I'm old enough to remember the early 1970s Hornby catalogues and even in OO back then there would be a a new locomotive, and maybe a coach or wagon or two each year. Anything else was a renumbering or a new livery.
It took 12 years from the class 47 being introduced to Hornby having a OO scale model of one.
So things are still good, we've just had a period of exceptional new product volumes driven by lower tooling costs and cheap Chinese people that has now partly passed. And the quality and detail is immeasurably better even if the running quality and reliability are not.
Getting back towards the announcements I do hope folk go for the Motorail flats. Here's a photo of my Motorail train. Yes it is shorter than it should be but the maximum length is dictated by my storage sidings. My motorail flats are obviously NGS ones, in fact they are repainted Railease wagons because I missed the boat on the actual Motorail branded ones. Nevertheless it makes for an interesting and different train and I am very pleased Bachmann have decided to do a run of them. Getting the cars for them is interesting. I have a mixture of Oxford diecast and 3D prints from a few sources. I look forward to seeing more Motorail trains in the not too distant future. :)
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/154/3123-110825170618.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=154227)
Hi
On the real railway would that VW camper with the roof rack have been allowed?
A million years ago (1990 ish) we used motorail to get back from Italy to Calais. We had a roof box and the guys in Bologna were saying that we could not travel with it. A nice couple of English ladies who spoke fluent Italian persuaded them to strap it to the wagon behind the car as the train was half empty.
Regards,
John P
Quote from: jpendle on Yesterday at 06:16:00 PMOn the real railway would that VW camper with the roof rack have been allowed?
I hope so as I have 1 on mine too :D