What should I look out for when buying secondhand or 'previously owned' locos?
I am mainly thinking about those advertised by the likes of Hattons and Rails of Sheffield, amongst others.
I can appreciate that old items will be suffering the ravages of time, use and/or abuse, but many items - I'm looking at a few at the moment from Rails for instance - are being described as 'Excellent condition' and 'like new'. This I am finding hard to reconcile with the fact that a high proportion of these are old models, with original, and often limited, release dates as far back as 1999 or the early 2000's.
Okay, they may have been well-loved, and treated as I would treat my own stock, but what of the general effects of time? Surely just siting in a box or on a shelf somewhere (who knows what atmospheric conditions applied) must have detrimental effects?
I would appreciate any and all comments about the perils and pitfalls of buying such locos, no matter what the asking price, which to me is just an invitation to haggle.
I would still be very careful with buying second hand locomotives, It literally a gamble I would say to be honest. I've had absolute gems and absolute lemon's. I recently bought a Class 50 from Hatton's with has 'Like New' arrived with warn worm gear, Packed with ridiculous amount's of grease which made it as quiet as it was and bent bogie.
Although I have found a couple of what I would call very well maintained loco's in the past. I would only purchase second hand is the price was at most 2/3rd's the new price as I'd rather just have a new one and wait a little longer if it's an expensive model.
Seems to be a few 'auction' listings these days with Youtube video's embedded to view the loco running which would help a lot in a decision in purchasing it. I'd basically study the photo's hard for tell tail signs of not abuse but not well looked after :beers:
Maybe a second hand buyer's guide sticky?
I've bought a number of second hand locos from Rails of Sheffield ebay shop and have been very pleased with them. They have mostly needed a good clean and oiling and I run them in as if they were new.
Rails offer a limited warranty on these items (I think its 60 or 90 days.
You have to keep an eye on the prices as many second hand locos are advertised at higher than new.
If your prepared to take a punt then bidding on ebay can land you a nice loco at a good price. Ozymandias frequently sells his refurbished locos on ebay and many are excellent value.
:beers:
Three rules of buying second hand locos beyond the asthetic.
1) check wheel wear, if the plating is gone say no
2) check that spares for the loco are available - I always assume something will need replaced
3) assume you will need to rebuild it - just to get the dirt and excess oil out and usually replace the motor brushes.
N Gauge locos have a high return rate. If the second-hand price is more than 80% of new - and often it is - then in my view it's not worth sacrificing the maker's warranty. Doubly so if you are buying online. If you can deal with crocks then you have a better chance of a bargain.
I agree, and what I regard as second hand is +5 years old.
Anything still in production will always come around as a Sale item saving the need to buy second hand.
Supplementary rule "Take your time and never be in a hurry"
Quote from: daffy on January 04, 2017, 11:07:24 AM
What should I look out for when buying secondhand or 'previously owned' locos?
I am mainly thinking about those advertised by the likes of Hattons and Rails of Sheffield, amongst others.
I can appreciate that old items will be suffering the ravages of time, use and/or abuse, but many items - I'm looking at a few at the moment from Rails for instance - are being described as 'Excellent condition' and 'like new'. This I am finding hard to reconcile with the fact that a high proportion of these are old models, with original, and often limited, release dates as far back as 1999 or the early 2000's.
Okay, they may have been well-loved, and treated as I would treat my own stock, but what of the general effects of time? Surely just siting in a box or on a shelf somewhere (who knows what atmospheric conditions applied) must have detrimental effects?
A while back I acquired a Japanese locomotive from a shop here in Tokyo from a small pile which had evidently been sitting in storage for decades, as they were produced in the 1970s and the packages were uniformly in pristine condition. The only issue was with the metal roof part, which has suffered slight distortion, but that was a design flaw of the model anyway. Otherwise it ran fine (as can be expected for that somewhat primitive) model of loco. It only cost about a fiver too :D Another more recent acquisition is a very nicely made locomotive made around 1979, I have no idea what its history is but both it and the packaging were in pristine condition and it too is fine.
From those and experience with other 2nd hand purchases, I'd say just sitting in reasonably stable storage (stable temperature, no exposure to light or damp etc.) with only a very little careful use at most, the mere passage of time is not likely to cause much in the way of ravaging.
Quote from: daffy on January 04, 2017, 11:07:24 AM
I would appreciate any and all comments about the perils and pitfalls of buying such locos, no matter what the asking price, which to me is just an invitation to haggle.
Things I look for:
- state of the packaging - poor condition might be a sign of frequent use, poor storage etc.; no original box (in the case of locomotives at least) is a red light
- all buffers there?
- all couplings there, and are they the ones I want?
- general visual condition
I did recently acquired a Poole-era Farish tank unboxed which doesn't really run, but I was kind of expecting that and there's a particular reason for that particular loco.
There is no way to guarentee a second hand buy from personal experience I have had a great many good S/H buys but also 1 or 2 duffers so you pays your money and takes your chances.
I got back in to N Gauge after discovering eBay, 80% of my locos are pre-loved (100+) and I very much enjoy turning something described as spares-or-repair into something healthier. I'm not a bargain hunter per-se, but 2nd hand is frequently the only way I'm able to obtain locos I want. I may be unusual but I'm the sort of person that wouldn't send a 2nd hand loco back, so I'm not put off by "no returns", I tend to look at secondhand items as buyer-beware, I tend to assume that I'm going to have to service it myself and I'm genuinely disappointed when a second hand item needs no attention at all.
A few things I'd add to the list are:
1. If it's broken, can fix it yourself (with help from the nice folk here) or will you have to send it off for repair elsewhere?
2. If spares are available, how much are they? Is it worth repairing?
3. Is the box and it's condition important to you?
I don't care about the box. I find you are more likely to break fiddly bits off a model getting it out of a manufacturers box than at any other time.
Don't be fooled by box condition. Any model I sell would have a pristine box as I take the model out of the box, put the model in my storage boxes and safely store the box. In effect the loco could have ten years of use and the box will look like it was made yesterday.
Quote from: longbow on January 04, 2017, 12:16:53 PM
N Gauge locos have a high return rate. If the second-hand price is more than 80% of new - and often it is - then in my view it's not worth sacrificing the maker's warranty. Doubly so if you are buying online. If you can deal with crocks then you have a better chance of a bargain.
The "high return rate" is a bit debatable, but I'll let that pass for now... What I think is important to say is that a 12-month-old loco that runs well is almost certainly not a lemon. It'll be one of the good ones! Secondhand in this instance is a way to get a loco that has been properly run-in and proven to work properly.
Almost all of my problems with locos have been either (a) I've done something stupid or (b) it's failed almost immediately after purchase. Can't do much about (a) beyond send the loco off for repair; but (b) is about avoiding getting the lemons.
I happily buy secondhand from reputable dealers. I know if it works properly on arrival it's probably a good model, and the risk of it failing thereafter is pretty low. If it fails immediately, or has some serious flaw I can't fix, then reputable dealers will cover that with their warranty.
Cheers, NeMo
As one who would likely cause more damage if I tried to fix a loco I don't buy 2nd hand except if I see a 'bargain' at a model railway show as there's generally a layout nearby who will test run it for me. I certainly wouldn't buy off Fleabay and can only say 'Caveat Emptor' (that's not a spell from Harry Potter, by the way). However, those who can fix things can and do get bargains from that source.
Quote from: NeMo on January 04, 2017, 01:20:12 PM
Quote from: longbow on January 04, 2017, 12:16:53 PM
N Gauge locos have a high return rate. If the second-hand price is more than 80% of new - and often it is - then in my view it's not worth sacrificing the maker's warranty. Doubly so if you are buying online. If you can deal with crocks then you have a better chance of a bargain.
The "high return rate" is a bit debatable, but I'll let that pass for now... What I think is important to say is that a 12-month-old loco that runs well is almost certainly not a lemon. It'll be one of the good ones! Secondhand in this instance is a way to get a loco that has been properly run-in and proven to work properly.
Yup, that's the way I see it too - when I started out I assumed new models would be better, but (personal) experience has shown I'm more likely to end up with a new dud which needs sending back under warranty (or working on it myself) than second hand. So far. In my case this is an issue as returning stuff is much more hassle from this end of the world.
Regarding boxes, the condition isn't important to me - I have a few which are more than a bit tatty, but it's a factor I take into account when evaluating something.
Thanks to all for the detailed responses. :thumbsup:
I suppose I should describe my self as somewhat lacking in the skills of the micro-engineer, so though I can handle a lot of small repairs and fixes, diagnosing faults would have me posting on here for advices, which I know would be forthcoming.
The locos I have been looking at today, Re 460's of the SBB (Swiss Federal Railways) , and many of these - I believe there have been 118 in total- have been dressed in many different liveries and adverts. The Swiss term them Werbeloks. The models produced, mainly by Marklin (under their MiniTrix brand), Kato/Lemke/Hobbytrain, Fleischmann, and a few others . This webpage gives an idea of the variety produced in various scales:http://www.roundhouse.ch/Re_460/SBB_Re-460-Werbeloks.htm?forumid=487660 (http://www.roundhouse.ch/Re_460/SBB_Re-460-Werbeloks.htm?forumid=487660)
The key point (hooray! He's finally got there! :) ) is that they are short-term issues, in limited numbers. My modelling desire was to recreate memories of the early 2000's on SBB lines, so inevitably the locos i would like are around 10 to 15 years old.
From the comments given, and being somewhat risk-averse (especially when some of these 'used' locos are at crazily high prices) it is perhaps best that i look for new models with later liveries. Ah well, perhaps it's a good enough reason to set off for the mountains again and make some new memories, health permitting.
When buying from swapmeets I like to see n gauge locos in boxes because (hopefully) they have been treated with care and stored in their box when not on the layout.
Anything that has been chucked into one big box with track, rolling stock etc, probably hasn't been looked after. If it's mucky and dusty that puts me off too.
If buying from Rails or one of the other retailers, I would ask them to test run the loco before posting it but I expect they test them before listing them anyway.
Rails tell you if they have been test run and tell you any faults, damage or bits missing.
:beers:
Quote from: daffy on January 04, 2017, 02:30:52 PM
The models produced, mainly by Marklin (under their MiniTrix brand), Kato/Lemke/Hobbytrain, Fleischmann, and a few others
It occurs to me that I was truly fixated with Graham Farish when I posted. My hobby started having inherited Fleischmann and MiniTrix locos built in the 80s which still run to this day, I wonder if our collective experience has better targeted advice with respect to the manufacturers you mentioned.
I've bought a number of second hand locos over the past 25 years, some fairly new and some quite old. Often I was only interested in the chassis so body condition was not an issue. I tested them all before buying but even so one failed after a few months when the valve gear fell apart. Some have been sold on as surplus to requirements but some are still running sweetly and with few parts, brushes excepted, required.
I generally give the chassis a good clean and lubrication before any real use.
In spite of this you do have to be careful and always run before buying.
Dodger
The problem with Rails of Sheffield is the prices! The Re460 locos they have on eBay are all described as "as new" but three I'm looking at were made n 1999, 2001, and 2002, with prices, respectively of £149.50, £149.50, and £124.50.
This is massive over-pricing and all have been listed since February 2014, so it looks like they are not exactly bothered about reducing these.
Brand new Re460's in plain red and some liveries can be bought for £112.95 to £170.00 for DC versions, as all the above are.
"Nuts!" as General Anthony Clement McAuliffe once said so eloquently.
Quote from: daffy on January 04, 2017, 04:12:43 PM
The problem with Rails of Sheffield is the prices! The Re460 locos they have on eBay are all described as "as new" but three I'm looking at were made n 1999, 2001, and 2002, with prices, respectively of £149.50, £149.50, and £124.50.
Why not make them an offer? It usually works for The Apprentice participants ;)
Quote from: keithfre on January 04, 2017, 04:15:20 PM
Quote from: daffy on January 04, 2017, 04:12:43 PM
The problem with Rails of Sheffield is the prices! The Re460 locos they have on eBay are all described as "as new" but three I'm looking at were made n 1999, 2001, and 2002, with prices, respectively of £149.50, £149.50, and £124.50.
Why not make them an offer? It usually works for The Apprentice participants ;)
Maybe 2 for 1 ? :D
Cheeky, but might be fun. :laugh:
I'll dwell upon it, but right now I'm researching new locos across the various European suppliers - including the UK.
I recently ( months ago) purchased a 2nd hand 3MT from rails whch was described as excellent , it had no DCC chip fitted so I started on removing the body and then came to a full stop when it just would not move , a little extra pressure soon revealed why as there copious amounts of superglue holding damaged body sections on , I thought oh well it serves me right for buying unseen and proceeded to fit a decoder which brought error 02 on my lenz handset further investigations revealed that the DCC 6 pin socket was faulty so I bought and fited a new one and then I was able to address the chip , I then discovered that the driven wheels were heavily pitted as if she's been driven over crushed concrete so I ordered and fitted those so to be honest the whole thing has been a giant pain the Butt and i'll be sticking to new Locos from now on .
Quote from: pctrainman on January 04, 2017, 05:03:42 PM
I recently ( months ago) purchased a 2nd hand 3MT from rails whch was described as excellent , it had no DCC chip fitted so I started on removing the body and then came to a full stop when it just would not move , a little extra pressure soon revealed why as there copious amounts of superglue holding damaged body sections on , I thought oh well it serves me right for buying unseen and proceeded to fit a decoder which brought error 02 on my lenz handset further investigations revealed that the DCC 6 pin socket was faulty so I bought and fited a new one and then I was able to address the chip , I then discovered that the driven wheels were heavily pitted as if she's been driven over crushed concrete so I ordered and fitted those so to be honest the whole thing has been a giant pain the Butt and i'll be sticking to new Locos from now on .
Have you complained to Rails as it is certainly not excellent? Is pitting of the wheels a common problem with running locos on DCC?
Dodger
Quote from: dodger on January 04, 2017, 05:09:30 PM
Quote from: pctrainman on January 04, 2017, 05:03:42 PM
I recently ( months ago) purchased a 2nd hand 3MT from rails whch was described as excellent , it had no DCC chip fitted so I started on removing the body and then came to a full stop when it just would not move , a little extra pressure soon revealed why as there copious amounts of superglue holding damaged body sections on , I thought oh well it serves me right for buying unseen and proceeded to fit a decoder which brought error 02 on my lenz handset further investigations revealed that the DCC 6 pin socket was faulty so I bought and fited a new one and then I was able to address the chip , I then discovered that the driven wheels were heavily pitted as if she's been driven over crushed concrete so I ordered and fitted those so to be honest the whole thing has been a giant pain the Butt and i'll be sticking to new Locos from now on .
Have you complained to Rails as it is certainly not excellent? Is pitting of the wheels a common problem with running locos on DCC?
Dodger
The pitting breaks the circuit and upsets the chip. Actually no loco with pitted wheels runs well.
The pitting could been caused by the previous owner running it with a HF track cleaner (Relco) for instance wheel pitting is a common problem caused by using these devices.
Tony
Quote from: A.Carter (BiG-T) on January 04, 2017, 05:36:04 PM
The pitting could been caused by the previous owner running it with a HF track cleaner (Relco) for instance wheel pitting is a common problem caused by using these devices.
Tony
It also seriously damages motor commutators.
Buying second hand is always a matter of luck. You can improve your chances by using a trader or other person that you know. Always ask to see the loco running, this will not only prove it works, but will show any wobbles from out-of-gauge or bent wheels and axels and that the lights (if any) are working. If the price is right, you will have a bargain.
My local shop (John Dutfield of Chelmsford) has sold me many s/h items, always running them for me. I have never had a dud as I know they always service locos and if they are poor they will say so or label it as spares only.
I have had some excellent bargains from the box shifters, but I have also been disappointed, and it is hard to argue a case where you have been told that the item has been previously used when you want to return it.
Good Luck (but improve your chances)
Daffy
I bought a second hand Dapol class 26 from Ronlines and it is one of my best running locos! I would echo the comments above eBay prices are very high at the moment for N you may pay a wee bit more from a shop but I would go to a retailer and dont pay more than 60 plus postage for a loco that is 80 to 90 pounds new!
Dave
What's been the experience of returning locos bought online? I assume you get less hassle when returning new items, especially to a big retailer. But perhaps eBay's bias towards buyers evens things up towards second hand?
It's likely that I shall be going to A & H Models in Brackley tomorrrow to check out what they have in both used and new continental items. Their website certainly looks promising, and recommendations on this forum are positive.
I've been before, over ten years ago now, as Brackley is only about 12 miles from where I lived for 30 years.
Fingers crossed I can find something to throw my money at.
But it might be hard. ;)
Mike Fifer has a nice little video on how to lubricate locos. Amongst other things, he tells us that the grease and oil in locos evaporates over time even when the loco has not been run to the point where the mechanism can stiffen up and not run properly. So, a lube job on a second hand loco particularly if it is more than a couple of years old would always be a good idea.
Like others here, I think the warranty is a valuable thing and would not buy a used loco unless it was heavily discounted (50% say) or if it was a model that was well and truly out of production and could not be bought any other way.
Webbo
I'd suggest that the first step with a second-hand loco should be a good clean. Erratic performance is more likely to be due to gunk and grime that to a lack of lube.
Sorry
I should have mentioned that Mike Fifer reckons that the grease itself when it's lubrication components evaporate, becomes waxy, and contributes to the gunk that can gum up the works even in a loco that is spotlessly clean otherwise.
Webbo
Quote from: Webbo on January 05, 2017, 12:42:59 AM
Sorry
I should have mentioned that Mike Fifer reckons that the grease itself when it's lubrication components evaporate, becomes waxy, and contributes to the gunk that can gum up the works even in a loco that is spotlessly clean otherwise.
Webbo
Yes I have found this several times. the PECO Colletts were a good example.
Jewelers oil is best failing that a good gun oil. Never Electrolub or WD40
You'd be surprised at how much gunk locos do accumulate , a while back I purchased a 2 nd hand Marklin Z gauge Loco for a narrow gauge line on my layout , on the Marklin forum there were numerous posts regarding Marklin oil which is known to turn into something resembling glue over time , there was a video of a Marklin loco with body removed being run whilst fully immeresed in IPA (Isopropyl alchohol) the IPA was crystal clear at the start but after just about 1 minute it was almost Black .
As others have mentioned, buyer beware!. Although I think I've been lucky. I have bought a few cheap fleischmann locos (sub £30) and been very happy with the results. They are older but the detail is great and what it has done is forced me to get to grips with maintenance and actually understanding how these tiny marvels work!. Case in point a Class 55 0-8-0 that ran for a bit then became very intermittent. I took the plunge, got the tender body off and realised that the pickup wiper was rather tenuously connected. 30 seconds with a soldering iron and she now looks the part and runs like a swiss watch.. Worth taking the risk over. It also increased my confidence in being able to cope with problems.
G.
Quote from: pctrainman on January 05, 2017, 09:00:22 AM
You'd be surprised at how much gunk locos do accumulate , a while back I purchased a 2 nd hand Marklin Z gauge Loco for a narrow gauge line on my layout , on the Marklin forum there were numerous posts regarding Marklin oil which is known to turn into something resembling glue over time , there was a video of a Marklin loco with body removed being run whilst fully immeresed in IPA (Isopropyl alchohol) the IPA was crystal clear at the start but after just about 1 minute it was almost Black .
Yes this works,
but as this site is read by less experienced individuals, electricity with a tank of Isopropyl alcohol or any other type of solvent has to be handled with care.
Issues are fumes, fire, invalidating your house insurance etc.
Personally I use Isopropyl alcohol in an ultrasonic tank to good effect
Quote from: Snowwolflair on January 05, 2017, 09:59:14 AM
Yes this works, but as this site is read by less experienced individuals, electricity with a tank of Isopropyl alcohol or any other type of solvent has to be handled with care.
Issues are fumes, fire, invalidating your house insurance etc.
Personally I use Isopropyl alcohol in an ultrasonic tank to good effect
IPA also strips paint and finish of models, so use with extreme care near them even if just using small quantities on a swab, etc.
...unless you do want to strip the paint deliberately.... ;)
Cheers,
Alan
I've bought dozens of second hand locos, I had one 350 which was absolutely filthy, and a 156 where the contact springs were damaged, but never had any major problems.
I wouldn't pay huge amounts, but have paid £70ish for plenty of locos, IME the failure rate people experience is vastly exaggerated, and I reckon it's a bathtub curve of failure - stuff fails when new, or very old, but rarely in the middle!
Even if you pay 30% less than new prices as long as fewer than 1/3 fail you're quids in. Do people really claim on the warranty on more than 1/3 models?! Even if you buy something which doesn't work you can sell for spares and recoup quite a bit. That assumes you don't just return it. If something is advertised as working and doesn't you've got a strong case.
Assuming you're getting them cheap enough second hand, even the odd write off is handy for spares. I've got a bit of a backlog of engine refurbs, tweaks and hacks to do now but also have a good set of donor bits to work with :)
Same with me njee20. I've bought around a dozen locos 2nd hand, mostly steam, and I've only had a problem with one (some clever person had glued the body on a J94 tank I bought so I can't get to the innards to clean it up).
All of the others, with a clean and an oil, look and run perfectly - as good as new and sometimes better!!
Many of the locos are fairly new but are no longer in production.
I always avoid locos with minor damage like missing couplings and buffers and body damage/scratches as this may often indicate bad handling or misuse. So it pays to read the description and examine the photos carefully.
:beers:
Quote from: daffy on January 04, 2017, 10:57:54 PM
Fingers crossed I can find something to throw my money at.
But it might be hard. ;)
You can always throw it my way, Daffy! :D
Quote from: newportnobby on January 05, 2017, 12:25:06 PM
Quote from: daffy on January 04, 2017, 10:57:54 PM
Fingers crossed I can find something to throw my money at.
But it might be hard. ;)
You can always throw it my way, Daffy! :D
Doesn't Charity begin at home Mick? :hmmm:
I'll see what I can spare though when I get back from A & H. :D.
Just setting off with a Credit Card, an understanding wife, and a wealth of hints and tips from all the folks here on this wondrous forum.
But whether I buy anything is another matter. :hmmm:
More fairy tales later. :D
Quote from: daffy on January 05, 2017, 12:41:39 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on January 05, 2017, 12:25:06 PM
Quote from: daffy on January 04, 2017, 10:57:54 PM
Fingers crossed I can find something to throw my money at.
But it might be hard. ;)
You can always throw it my way, Daffy! :D
Doesn't Charity begin at home Mick? :hmmm:
It sure does - I'm getting Red Cross parcels already.
If you do throw the money my way please don't file the edges down first or it will be A & E rather than A & H for me. :uneasy:
One essential truth - whether you like secondhand or not, with the current batch production nature of models, it's almost a certainty you'll have to resort to the secondhand market sooner or later to get things that haven't been produced again or produced recently.
Cheers,
Alan - 90% of my fleet is secondhand.
Quote from: Dr Al on January 05, 2017, 03:11:01 PM
One essential truth - whether you like secondhand or not, with the current batch production nature of models, it's almost a certainty you'll have to resort to the secondhand market sooner or later to get things that haven't been produced again or produced recently.
Cheers,
Alan - 90% of my fleet is secondhand.
Very true. Most of my second hand locos are fairly recent but no longer available. Plus a few old classics like the Peco Jubilee.
:beers:
Quote from: Dr Al on January 05, 2017, 03:11:01 PM
One essential truth - whether you like secondhand or not, with the current batch production nature of models, it's almost a certainty you'll have to resort to the secondhand market sooner or later to get things that haven't been produced again or produced recently.
Cheers,
Alan - 90% of my fleet is secondhand.
Very true, I made the conscious decision two years ago to get all the out of production models, including chassis for kits, I want before good ones were no longer available cheaply. Given what has happened since last summer to prices I'm very glad I did.
Whats the general opinion on paying just shy of £100 for a second hand Minitrix warship?
Its the maroon version but probably could have one resprayed for less?
Cheers
Andy
Quote from: BramptonBranch on January 05, 2017, 06:55:35 PM
Whats the general opinion on paying just shy of £100 for a second hand Minitrix warship?
Its the maroon version but probably could have one resprayed for less?
Cheers
Andy
Only if it is perfect and has lived in a dark cupboard for 35 years. Check perishables like traction tires, plastic parts for age cracks etc. and no trace of oil on the box.
Quote from: BramptonBranch on January 05, 2017, 06:55:35 PM
Whats the general opinion on paying just shy of £100 for a second hand Minitrix warship?
Its the maroon version but probably could have one resprayed for less?
Cheers
Andy
I bought a refurbished and repainted Minitrix warship for abought half that price. £100 is definitely expensive in my opinion.
:beers:
Quote from: njee20 on January 05, 2017, 11:24:34 AM
I've bought dozens of second hand locos, I had one 350 which was absolutely filthy, and a 156 where the contact springs were damaged, but never had any major problems.
I wouldn't pay huge amounts, but have paid £70ish for plenty of locos, IME the failure rate people experience is vastly exaggerated, and I reckon it's a bathtub curve of failure - stuff fails when new, or very old, but rarely in the middle!
Even if you pay 30% less than new prices as long as fewer than 1/3 fail you're quids in. Do people really claim on the warranty on more than 1/3 models?! Even if you buy something which doesn't work you can sell for spares and recoup quite a bit. That assumes you don't just return it. If something is advertised as working and doesn't you've got a strong case.
In the case of Dapol my return rate on New models is verging on 60%! However I have several Dapol locomotives, both Steam and Diesel, bought second hand and the return rate is 0%.
My experience with Dapol is well designed, badly built (assembled).
when they are put together properly they are good.
Quote from: Byegad on January 06, 2017, 02:25:25 PM
In the case of Dapol my return rate on New models is verging on 60%!
@Byegad (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=4798)
Ah, but how many have you bought as a percentage is no use without the other number e.g. if you bought one and returned it the return rate would be 100%!
Not sure about the good design claim. That cardan shaft drive seems designed to disengage with the slightest provocation and designed to be a pain to re-engage - small black shaft to go in small black hole in small black cab. Well thought out...
And those tiny thin wires between loco and tender which break when you breath on them. Mmmm.
Still, they do look the part when they're working.
:hmmm: :beers:
Quote from: austinbob on January 06, 2017, 02:44:17 PM
Not sure about the good design claim.
Agreed - there is some good design, but it can't be blanket generalised IMHO - I'd add the tender pickups design A3, A4, and onwards as being very inherently poor.
Cheers,
Alan
Oh they are fragile and must be carefully handled.
The times I have seen a Dapol loco carelessly lifted by the tender, the cardan comes out and the body twists breaking a wire, that's bad handling not bad design. Same goes for the Schools with the loco being picked up by squeezing the valve gear.
@newportnobby (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264)
I have bought 5 9Fs and returnd 3 as they persistently derailed, a Britannia, which shed both traction tyres within 3 feet of very gentle running and a Class 27 which didn't run in the shop so possibly doesn't count as a 'return' but I had my card in my hand when it didn't move!
4/7x100=57.142857recurring %. So verging on 60%. I also have, bought very second hand 2 9Fs, a Britannia and a class 27, all Minitrix and all faultless. One of my 'better' Dapol 9Fs has had the pony truck hoisted off the rails and locked as it derailed everywhere and an Ivatt 2MT with both pony trucks similarly locked up for the same reason.
This is very bad as none of my other 99 Minitrix (Continental and UK outline), Fleischmann, Graham Farish (Poole and Chinese), Union Mills, Arnold, Kato and Tomix locomotives have had anything lkike the issues that 4 new Dapols had. My conclusion is that Dapol are not worth the bother and I'll not buy another for many a year.
Yes I know they look good, but I expect to run and enjoy my locos, not admire them on a siding, wishing they ran well.
Quote from: Snowwolflair on January 06, 2017, 02:54:03 PM
Oh they are fragile and must be carefully handled.
The times I have seen a Dapol loco carelessly lifted by the tender, the cardan comes out and the body twists breaking a wire, that's bad handling not bad design. Same goes for the Schools with the loco being picked up by squeezing the valve gear.
In my opinion if a loco needs excessively careful handling to prevent damage or malfunction then that is poor, not good design.
I've had two Dapol locos replaced because of broken wires out of the box. I also bought an A4 where the cardan shaft had fallen. Inside the loco, again a brand new loco straight out of the box. Had to dismantle it to put things in order!!
Of course this is all a bit off the second loco thread now. Apologies...
:beers:
Quote from: Byegad on January 06, 2017, 03:04:48 PM
@newportnobby (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264)
I have bought 5 9Fs and returnd 3 as they persistently derailed, a Britannia, which shed both traction tyres within 3 feet of very gentle running and a Class 27 which didn't run in the shop so possibly doesn't count as a 'return' but I had my card in my hand when it didn't move!
4/7x100=57.142857recurring %. So verging on 60%. I also have, bought very second hand 2 9Fs, a Britannia and a class 27, all Minitrix and all faultless. One of my 'better' Dapol 9Fs has had the pony truck hoisted off the rails and locked as it derailed everywhere and an Ivatt 2MT with both pony trucks similarly locked up for the same reason.
This is very bad as none of my other 99 Minitrix (Continental and UK outline), Fleischmann, Graham Farish (Poole and Chinese), Union Mills, Arnold, Kato and Tomix locomotives have had anything lkike the issues that 4 new Dapols had. My conclusion is that Dapol are not worth the bother and I'll not buy another for many a year.
Yes I know they look good, but I expect to run and enjoy my locos, not admire them on a siding, wishing they ran well.
So when are you going to list them on Ebay as faulty, spares and repairs? I could do with a couple of cheap 9Fs, especially as the front bogie is easily fixed. :D
No they went back to Dapol for them to sell as A,B,C or D category rubbish.
Quote from: austinbob on January 06, 2017, 03:15:34 PM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on January 06, 2017, 02:54:03 PM
Oh they are fragile and must be carefully handled.
The times I have seen a Dapol loco carelessly lifted by the tender, the cardan comes out and the body twists breaking a wire, that's bad handling not bad design. Same goes for the Schools with the loco being picked up by squeezing the valve gear.
In my opinion if a loco needs excessively careful handling to prevent damage or malfunction then that is poor, not good design.
I've had two Dapol locos replaced because of broken wires out of the box. I also bought an A4 where the cardan shaft had fallen. Inside the loco, again a brand new loco straight out of the box. Had to dismantle it to put things in order!!
Of course this is all a bit off the second loco thread now. Apologies...
:beers:
Yes exactly, badly built and lousy QA, assuming no one had previously had it out of the box. As far as careful handling, I'm happy to sacrifice fragility for detail. If you want bomb proof the buy old Farish and Union Mills. Also Kato is built for children and although looking good to our eyes are seriously suspect on detail, being sacrificed for functionality.
Quote from: Byegad on January 06, 2017, 03:19:40 PM
No they went back to Dapol for them to sell as A,B,C or D category rubbish.
Just as good, I bought four C and D ones from DCC supplies at the Wycombe show a few weeks ago total £53 and I had them all fixed in an hour except the Class 86 that needed a new PCB. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Snowwolflair on January 06, 2017, 03:25:53 PM
Quote from: Byegad on January 06, 2017, 03:19:40 PM
No they went back to Dapol for them to sell as A,B,C or D category rubbish.
Just as good, I bought four C and D ones from DCC supplies at the Wycombe show a few weeks ago total £53 and I had them all fixed in an hour except the Class 86 that needed a new PCB. :thumbsup:
I think the fact that Dapol sell seemingly *vast* quantities of reject or returned stock says a lot.....
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Snowwolflair on January 06, 2017, 03:21:07 PM
Also Kato is built for children.......
Ah, to be forever young in my retirement. :)
Then I probably bought one, :D it's fine though.
I do agree that Dapol locos are rather fragile especially the 9F which looks exquisite but has all sorts of delicate bits that can damaged. It's a very good representation of the actual loco but not really a practical model.
Quote from: daffy on January 06, 2017, 03:38:51 PM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on January 06, 2017, 03:21:07 PM
Also Kato is built for children.......
Ah, to be forever young in my retirement. :)
I think Snowwolflair must be talking about the Kato Pocketline (http://www.katomodels.com/n/pocket_line/) range.
Quote from: railsquid on January 06, 2017, 04:00:00 PM
Quote from: daffy on January 06, 2017, 03:38:51 PM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on January 06, 2017, 03:21:07 PM
Also Kato is built for children.......
Ah, to be forever young in my retirement. :)
I think Snowwolflair must be talking about the Kato Pocketline (http://www.katomodels.com/n/pocket_line/) range.
I rather hope so, because otherwise that statement is total rubbish!
You need to look at the Kato philosophy. They design to be robust and if you put them up against drawings and photographs of the real thing you quickly see where the design compromises are.
I'm not knocking them, I use their mechanisms to motorise hand made models but I recognise them for what they are. NB there are much better finer scale less toy looking Japanese manufacturers at a significantly higher price.
Dapol need to stick to their knitting and sort out their factory and it's QA and I would hate them to dumb down their offering due to cat calls from the audience.
I don't think the 'audience' are making cat calls. They are expressing genuine dissatisfaction with some of Dapols offerings and there's very little point in having a beautifully detailed model if it doesn't :censored: work when you use it!!
Nothing wrong with a bit less detail anyway. You can't see the fine detail under normal running conditions.
More important is the loco should have the essence of the prototype rather than infinite accuracy in my opinion. :beers:
Just a thought or two from my fence....
If Dapol are making to a price point rather than focusing on quality in design, manufacture and build then perhaps that might be the root of their issues. Quality Control can be the first thing to suffer when too stringent economies are being applied.
European manufacturers such as Fleischmann, Marklin, Bemo and Roco have good reputations for build quality that is reflected in their pricing. Okay, the overall issue is not that simple of course, but I still think the point is relevant.
That @Snowwolflair (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3761) and others can buy cheap rejects to their advantage is hardly a sparkling testimonial for the management at Dapol.
I would be interested to know examples, aside from the aforementioned Pocket Line range.
Whilst there are manufacturers in Japan who make high-end models (World Craft for example), Kato cannot be dismissed as built for children. Kato make no more compromises than any other major manufacturer when it comes to prototypical fidelity (with the track gauge being perhaps the most significant, but then again, so do Farish, Dapol et al).
They do produce some basic models for budget modellers (which I am sure many UK modellers wish UK manufacturers could also do) but many of these tend to be very old mouldings which are not up to current standards of detail. At least they have the decency to sell these at a much lower price as opposed to selling models with 30 year old tooling at top whack prices! Indeed some of their models far exceed anything produced in the UK, even the continent. Their JR East D51 steam locomotive, and many of their US offerings, are very much 'adult' models in terms of detail and performance.
The Unitrack system and Diotown range is designed for the constraints experienced by many in Japan (plenty in the UK have space constraints also), but less so their range of trains; which are well designed and well built.
Quote from: austinbob on January 06, 2017, 04:30:34 PM
I don't think the 'audience' are making cat calls. They are expressing genuine dissatisfaction with some of Dapols offerings and there's very little point in having a beautifully detailed model if it doesn't :censored: work when you use it!!
Nothing wrong with a bit less detail anyway. You can't see the fine detail under normal running conditions.
More important is the loco should have the essence of the prototype rather than infinite accuracy in my opinion. :beers:
If they never worked due to bad design I would agree but they do work and they work well if they are assembled correctly and handled carefully.
Quote from: Claude Dreyfus on January 06, 2017, 04:52:39 PM
I would be interested to know examples, aside from the aforementioned Pocket Line range.
Whilst there are manufacturers in Japan who make high-end models (World Craft for example), Kato cannot be dismissed as built for children. Kato make no more compromises than any other major manufacturer when it comes to prototypical fidelity (with the track gauge being perhaps the most significant, but then again, so do Farish, Dapol et al).
They do produce some basic models for budget modellers (which I am sure many UK modellers wish UK manufacturers could also do) but many of these tend to be very old mouldings which are not up to current standards of detail. At least they have the decency to sell these at a much lower price as opposed to selling models with 30 year old tooling at top whack prices! Indeed some of their models far exceed anything produced in the UK, even the continent. Their JR East D51 steam locomotive, and many of their US offerings, are very much 'adult' models in terms of detail and performance.
The Unitrack system and Diotown range is designed for the constraints experienced by many in Japan (plenty in the UK have space constraints also), but less so their range of trains; which are well designed and well built.
To be clear by "built for children" I mean the robustness of design, not that the market target is children.
As far as simplified (less breakable detail) Here are three photos, a real loco, a Kato rendering and an Brass casting high spec model by Overland. The Overland model is at least ten times the price and deserves to be handled with ten times the care.
the Kato one clearly looks like a toy in comparison to the overland model.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/46/3761-060117170853.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=46907)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/46/3761-060117170918.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=46908)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/46/3761-060117171337.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=46909)
Farish Hall vs Dapol Hall really no contest.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/46/3761-060117183543.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=46920)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/46/3761-060117183601.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=46921)
Quote from: Snowwolflair on January 06, 2017, 06:37:00 PM
Farish Hall vs Dapol Hall really no contest.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/46/3761-060117183543.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=46920)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/46/3761-060117183601.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=46921)
Unless the Dapol loco doesn't work! :)
Quote from: austinbob on January 06, 2017, 06:48:42 PM
Quote from: Snowwolflair on January 06, 2017, 06:37:00 PM
Farish Hall vs Dapol Hall really no contest.
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/46/3761-060117183543.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=46920)
(http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/46/3761-060117183601.jpeg) (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=46921)
Unless the Dapol loco doesn't work! :)
All mine do and they have sound :D
The sound is that cardan shaft whirring away David.
;)
No but it raises an interesting point on lubrication.
Don't put mineral, or organic oil on plastic cardan shafts. The oil eats the surface of the plastic and causes it to rub. the best solution I have found, but may not be the only one, is a dry PVC lubricant I originally came across +35 years ago and made for stopping the sound of rubbing plastic panels in British Leyland cars. These days bike repair shops stock a Teflon equivalent. NB it is the opposite of Electrolube which can cause shorts, the Teflon version can insulate so keep it away from electrical pickups etc.
Quote from: newportnobby on January 05, 2017, 12:44:59 PM
Quote from: daffy on January 05, 2017, 12:41:39 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on January 05, 2017, 12:25:06 PM
Quote from: daffy on January 04, 2017, 10:57:54 PM
Fingers crossed I can find something to throw my money at.
But it might be hard. ;)
You can always throw it my way, Daffy! :D
Doesn't Charity begin at home Mick? :hmmm:
It sure does - I'm getting Red Cross parcels already.
If you do throw the money my way please don't file the edges down first or it will be A & E rather than A & H for me. :uneasy:
Well Mick, after a short excursion to deepest Northamptonshire while the rest of the world went to Dapolland (I dropped in myself on the way back), I have the sad duty of informing you that donations from the Red Cross must continue to sustain you for some time to come. In short, I've spent up!
Three Fleischmann SBB locos bought, but sadly one will have to be returned as I made an error in selection, choosing a model that wasn't prototypical to my plans. Sad because I got it for a good price and though second hand it was in really very good condition and of good provenance.
Of the two brand new locos, one, an Re 460, is perfect, but the other has running issues, the motor 'chugging' (more in one direction than the other), and one of the bogies is causing the wheels to catch on curves, noticeably slowing the loco. This at 216mm radius, whereas Fleischmann's advised minimum is 192mm. My Kato test track includes some 150mm curves and if course it slows dramatically there, as expected, but oddly only in one direction. I suspect a back-to-back issue, but whatever it is I am sending it back so that Chris at A&H can hopefully resolve these two issues and return it to me.
Chris's shop is a veritable gold mine and is well worth a visit, and he is very helpful.
So, my secondhand purchase was fine, but a brand new one wasn't. That's life. :)
When I can get around to it (after SWMBO has finished baking a flan in it ;) )I'll get some photos of the three and post in the appropriate thread.
It has dawned on me that if I'm going to get the smooth, slow speed running that I crave then I will have to get used to taking my locos apart and fettling them. And a second-hand loco is a good place to start with that. So if anyone has a strip-down guide to the Dapol Pannier please point the way.
It also appears that many initial problems with new locos are easily fixed so that will be another benefit of some competence in the fettling department.
Longbow, here is a link to a very good DCC sound tutorial for Dapol panniers which includes instructions on how to dismantle them:
http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=13765.msg137806#msg137806 (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=13765.msg137806#msg137806)
I tried to get mine apart to lubricate it but it was 'glued' together with paint and I broke a few plastic tabs, so proceed with care.
Quote from: longbow on January 06, 2017, 11:10:35 PM
It also appears that many initial problems with new locos are easily fixed so that will be another benefit of some competence in the fettling department.
In my opinion, if its a new loco and it has a fault, it should be returned as faulty. You shouldn't have to fix faulty goods of any kind. If a telly you bought was broken, would you try and fix it yourself - I don't think so.
The more we put up with faulty N gauge items then the less likely it is that the manufacturers will resolve the design/quality assurance and control problems.
Just because we are capable of fixing a new faulty loco, it doesn't mean we should. What about all the poor so and so's who have little technical knowledge and who just buy N gauge stuff to take out of the box and run on their layout.
:beers:
What I have in mind is improving below-average performers rather than repairing duds.
Quote from: austinbob on January 07, 2017, 08:41:56 AM
Just because we are capable of fixing a new faulty loco, it doesn't mean we should. What about all the poor so and so's who have little technical knowledge and who just buy N gauge stuff to take out of the box and run on their layout.
This is true, but equally, it's a constructional hobby where even if you buy everything new and it all works perfectly, sooner or later you will run into a situation where you will need to gain technical knowledge, if nothing else but to maintain those models.
We live in an era of chequebook modelling, where fewer and fewer seem willing to do as much - which is a crying shame as it's one of the best bits of the hobby!
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on January 07, 2017, 01:16:44 PM
Quote from: austinbob on January 07, 2017, 08:41:56 AM
Just because we are capable of fixing a new faulty loco, it doesn't mean we should. What about all the poor so and so's who have little technical knowledge and who just buy N gauge stuff to take out of the box and run on their layout.
This is true, but equally, it's a constructional hobby where even if you buy everything new and it all works perfectly, sooner or later you will run into a situation where you will need to gain technical knowledge, if nothing else but to maintain those models.
We live in an era of chequebook modelling, where fewer and fewer seem willing to do as much - which is a crying shame as it's one of the best bits of the hobby!
Cheers,
Alan
I must agree with you Alan, though not with regard to faulty new items. Any tinkering or fettling that fails to bring the desired result will lead to an invalidation of any warranty or other consumer rights.
I am all for fettling and tinkering, and agree that the "buy - run - fault - replace" ethos of some is not the way forward for the continuing or developing hobbyist. I need to get used to taking stuff apart, and putting it back together again, but never on a new loco that has failed right out of the box.
I'm on the lookout for that elusive box of bits that offer so much joy without expensive risk.
Quite true Dr Al I've yet to buy a loco that hasn't failed to run poorly, but a bit of maintenance seems to solve most problems. I suppose a yearly service isn't too bad.
Doesn't not maintaining a loco invalidate the warranty?
Dodger
Quote from: dodger on January 07, 2017, 01:30:26 PM
Doesn't not maintaining a loco invalidate the warranty?
Depends what you do - oiling, cleaning certainly shouldn't.
Warranties are fairly finite anyway - a year or two. It pretty quickly goes, so after that you are on your own anyway, and will sooner or later have to do something to a loco that's >2 years old.
Cheers,
Alan
If people are happy fettling their locos then fine. However, I wonder how many N gauge modellers are not interested in fettling and just want things to work properly.
As regards maintenance, as far as I'm aware, Dapol and Farish only indicate that periodic oiling is required. There is no mention in instructions of any other maintenance requirements. So the non fettlers would never consider doing anything to their locos other than oiling.
So if a loco breaks out of warranty many people would send their loco off to be repaired or perhaps bin it if too expensive to fix.
Its a bit like cars I suppose. Some enthusiasts will do their own maintenance and repair. Most will get their garage to do the work.
A final thought... I wonder how many N gaugers are fettlers and how many are not? I suspect a sizeable proportion of forum members are fettlers and find the forum content helpful in this respect. I also suspect that most of Joe public are not in the slightest bit interested in fiddling with locos. In fact people starting out in N gauge must find it a real turn off if their first purchase doesn't work - they may dump the hobby straight away and that's bad for us all.
:beers:
I do a certain amount of fettling but agree that it shouldn't be necessary on a new loco. I'm finding it more and more difficult to work on locos as my eyes are getting worse and the locos are becoming more and more detailed and difficult to dismantle.
I have an N class loco with damaged valve gear, I bought the spare parts but I'm afraid my courage failed me when it came to fitting them. The broken bits have been removed and the loco is running with simplified gear on one side.
The next time I am in the U.K. I will send it to an expert for repairs.
Quote from: austinbob on January 07, 2017, 01:54:38 PM
If people are happy fettling their locos then fine. However, I wonder how many N gauge modellers are not interested in fettling
If I may dare to go off topic.....but are they really 'modellers' then...?
Quote from: austinbob on January 07, 2017, 01:54:38 PM
As regards maintenance, as far as I'm aware, Dapol and Farish only indicate that periodic oiling is required. There is no mention in instructions of any other maintenance requirements. So the non fettlers would never consider doing anything to their locos other than oiling.
Basic cleaning of wheels and pickups also must be in there - even "non-fettlers" will run into needing to do this sooner or later.
Even oiling can be got wrong - if you douse the thing in oil that's often worse than not oiling it.
Cheers,
Alan
Quote from: Dr Al on January 07, 2017, 02:08:17 PM
If I may dare to go off topic.....but are they really 'modellers' then...?
Perhaps 'hobbyists' would be a more inclusive term. :) Though of course we 'model' our entire layouts. Perhaps the gifted loco fettlers might prefer the epithet of 'model engineers'.
Quote from: Dr Al on January 07, 2017, 01:35:24 PM
Quote from: dodger on January 07, 2017, 01:30:26 PM
Doesn't not maintaining a loco invalidate the warranty?
Depends what you do - oiling, cleaning certainly shouldn't.
Warranties are fairly finite anyway - a year or two. It pretty quickly goes, so after that you are on your own anyway, and will sooner or later have to do something to a loco that's >2 years old.
Cheers,
Alan
What I meant was that if a manufacturer sometimes states a period for oiling. If this isn't done is the warranty invalid?
Dodger
Quote from: Dr Al on January 07, 2017, 02:08:17 PM
Quote from: austinbob on January 07, 2017, 01:54:38 PM
If people are happy fettling their locos then fine. However, I wonder how many N gauge modellers are not interested in fettling
If I may dare to go off topic.....but are they really 'modellers' then...?
Quote from: austinbob on January 07, 2017, 01:54:38 PM
As regards maintenance, as far as I'm aware, Dapol and Farish only indicate that periodic oiling is required. There is no mention in instructions of any other maintenance requirements. So the non fettlers would never consider doing anything to their locos other than oiling.
Basic cleaning of wheels and pickups also must be in there - even "non-fettlers" will run into needing to do this sooner or later.
Even oiling can be got wrong - if you douse the thing in oil that's often worse than not oiling it.
Cheers,
Alan
Many N gauge enthusiasts may not be 'modellers' in your terms. They just want to buy stuff and run it. As I understand it, that is precisely what the Kato track system helps us to do. Others may be interested in just the scenic side of the hobby and just want to run trains through their scenic creations.
Most newcomers to the hobby are probably not Modellers yet, but may become so in the future, unless put off by bad design and poor quality kit.
Regarding maintenance I repeat that as far as I'm aware there is no maintenance requirement in loco instructions other than oiling and the requirement for running in. Maybe there should be?
:beers:
Quote from: dodger on January 07, 2017, 02:19:52 PM
Quote from: Dr Al on January 07, 2017, 01:35:24 PM
Quote from: dodger on January 07, 2017, 01:30:26 PM
Doesn't not maintaining a loco invalidate the warranty?
Depends what you do - oiling, cleaning certainly shouldn't.
Warranties are fairly finite anyway - a year or two. It pretty quickly goes, so after that you are on your own anyway, and will sooner or later have to do something to a loco that's >2 years old.
Cheers,
Alan
What I meant was that if a manufacturer sometimes states a period for oiling. If this isn't done is the warranty invalid?
Dodger
Probably but it might be difficult to prove you hadn't oiled the loco.
Quote from: austinbob on January 07, 2017, 08:41:56 AM
Quote from: longbow on January 06, 2017, 11:10:35 PM
It also appears that many initial problems with new locos are easily fixed so that will be another benefit of some competence in the fettling department.
In my opinion, if its a new loco and it has a fault, it should be returned as faulty. You shouldn't have to fix faulty goods of any kind. If a telly you bought was broken, would you try and fix it yourself - I don't think so.
The more we put up with faulty N gauge items then the less likely it is that the manufacturers will resolve the design/quality assurance and control problems.
Just because we are capable of fixing a new faulty loco, it doesn't mean we should. What about all the poor so and so's who have little technical knowledge and who just buy N gauge stuff to take out of the box and run on their layout.
:beers:
I once returned a Dapol after 2 days because none of the pickups on one side of the engine were working. The loco was relying on the tender pickups. It of course ran perfectly but failed to stop in the correct position at the station because of the defect unless running tender first.
The Model shop eventually agreed to replace after about an hour of discussion it but couldn't comprehend the problem.
Dodger
Quote from: Byegad on January 06, 2017, 03:04:48 PM
@newportnobby (http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=264)
I have bought 5 9Fs and returnd 3 as they persistently derailed, a Britannia, which shed both traction tyres within 3 feet of very gentle running and a Class 27 which didn't run in the shop so possibly doesn't count as a 'return' but I had my card in my hand when it didn't move!
4/7x100=57.142857recurring %. So verging on 60%. I also have, bought very second hand 2 9Fs, a Britannia and a class 27, all Minitrix and all faultless.
I've just received a 2nd hand Dapol 27, works fine - a tad noisy but well withing the acceptable range, and nothing compared to the brand new chainsaw level Class 33 with failed lightiing, which will be dispatched shortly to the retailer (in the same packaging as they sent me the Class 27).
Meanwhile earlier today I purchased here in Tokyo a 2nd hand Farish 46 with handily pre-split gears for a very handsome discount on the already reasonable price after a bit of exaggerated hemming-and-hawing and explaining that very Farish problem to the shop staff...
Quote from: Snowwolflair on January 05, 2017, 08:47:22 AM
Jewelers oil is best failing that a good gun oil. Never Electrolub or WD40
Dapol sell their own branded oil which I have found to be good.