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Author Topic: Comments About Forum. Formerly:- apt  (Read 4304 times)

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Offline njee20

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Re: Comments About Forum. Formerly:- apt
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2017, 01:20:30 PM »
The problem there is that we have examples of 1 and 2 not being allowed. A manufacturer cannot come on here and say "I have this forthcoming product", without having sought permission. There are myriad problems with this, particularly when it's one person who needs to approve this (even if Tank will just say "yeah, sure" 99% of the time), it's a bottleneck and a barrier to participation, which isn't really what a forum needs.

We had this exact discussion less than a month ago, here. That we're doing it all over again suggests to me that maybe there is something a bit wrong, and to just say "those are the rules" is a little daft, even if they're there. The rules could state that every post should begin with the letter Q, it would be very easy to enforce, but pretty stupid. I stand by the comment I made in last month's thread that people complain we don't get comments from manufacturers, but it's not entirely difficult to see why.

Offline Sprintex

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Re: Comments About Forum. Formerly:- apt
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2017, 01:24:41 PM »
All N'porium posts are vetted, and so are the advertisers.  This must be one of the safest places to buy models from because we're as careful as we can be regarding what is being sold and who from.

I see your point, but if I were a mod I'd much rather someone get a 3d print direct from Shapeways, rather than take responsibility for a potentially dodgy sale that I've authorised.

I don't know where you get your mad ideas from but we Moderators take NO responsibility for "authorising" N'porium sales, or any other sales for that matter!

We check N'porium listings before they go live to make sure they comply with the rules and there are no errors, that's it. End of responsibility. Just the same as it is up to individual members whether they buy from Shapeways, Ebay or any other site goods are advertised on or linked to on the forum. We do not authorise or endorse any sale.


Paul

Offline RailGooner

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Re: Comments About Forum. Formerly:- apt
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2017, 01:59:45 PM »
.. Half this thread is about an issue other than the APT (and could really do with being split into a new topic) ... Cheers, Mike

Agreed. :thumbsup:


I'm working on CAD for an apt-p cause I am fascinated by oddities and prototypes. I was wondering if anyone had experience of taking a CAD model and turning it into a working n gauge model


Hi @scorpion_1925 , I can't say that I do have any such experience. But like you I too am interested in oddities and prototypes. I'm probably not fanatical enough to want to model an APT however, but I'm interested enough to want to follow this thread**. Though having seen the Rapido/Locomotion OO model, I'd break several rules for one of them. :D


** If this thread ever gets back on track. :veryangry:
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 02:02:48 PM by RailGooner »
2021-07-02... Following a review of evidence, Soldier 'F' (formerly of 1st Battalion, Parachute Regiment) has been acquitted. In an unequivocal ruling, Mr Justice O’Hara found none of the Crown's evidence should be admitted to the trial. The cases against Soldiers 'A', 'B' and 'C' have also been dropped.

Per Ardua ad Astra | Mens Agitat Molem | Victoria Concordia Crescit | Utrinque Paratus | Caveat lector

Offline njee20

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Re: Comments About Forum. Formerly:- apt
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2017, 02:03:12 PM »
Locomotion/Rapido is the APT-E, not the APT-P, the former was the experimental one, whilst the latter was the (similarly short lived) prototype model.

Offline Tank

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Re: Comments About Forum. Formerly:- apt
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2017, 05:14:43 PM »
The problem there is that we have examples of 1 and 2 not being allowed. A manufacturer cannot come on here and say "I have this forthcoming product", without having sought permission. There are myriad problems with this, particularly when it's one person who needs to approve this (even if Tank will just say "yeah, sure" 99% of the time), it's a bottleneck and a barrier to participation, which isn't really what a forum needs.

We had this exact discussion less than a month ago, here. That we're doing it all over again suggests to me that maybe there is something a bit wrong, and to just say "those are the rules" is a little daft, even if they're there. The rules could state that every post should begin with the letter Q, it would be very easy to enforce, but pretty stupid. I stand by the comment I made in last month's thread that people complain we don't get comments from manufacturers, but it's not entirely difficult to see why.


Not quite true, as I've had two people in the last 24 hours write to me about putting their projects on here and I've let them.  No bottle neck at all, that's just your interpretation.

As for manufacturers, I know exactly why two leading manufacturers don't post on here and it's never been anything to do with how I run this forum.

What's your overall solution then?  Tell me exactly what you'd do.

Offline njee20

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Re: Comments About Forum. Formerly:- apt
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2017, 05:35:31 PM »
Right, so in the last 24 hours there's been no bottleneck, that's a daft extrapolation to say there'll never be one. Say (hypothetically speaking, obviously wouldn't wish this on you) you were hospitalised, then what? Surely you can identify that there's a key man dependency here, and that's not good.

Exactly what would I do? I would:
1. allow all manufacturers to post 'press releases', perhaps in a dedicated part of the forum. This would include 'forthcoming product' type announcements, updates, invitations for feedback etc, prices would be fine

2. allow non-profit one man band type people to post their own creations, I think this is something far more common now we have 3D printing, allowing the likes of Vonzack, Only Me and 3rdboxcar from the APT thread to 'promote' their wares. You can't really avoid having links to Shapeways in this, it seems daft that (as far as I can tell) I can post a link to hypothetical man's wagon and say "these are good", but he can't post a thread to say "I've done these, what do you think, they're available here". Basically the same as the 3D printing forum on RMWeb.

3. not allow retailers or manufacturers to post links to their own shop without prior permission, definitely not start their own thread, bit more lax on responses to individual threads;  if a shop/manufacturer wants to be proactive in saying "we have that in stock", then I don't have an issue with that. Works well on other forums I participate in.

I'm not entirely sure it needs much more than that.

I look at the forum now and I see 2 adverts: Wickness Models, advertising DCC Conversions and Equipment. They don't do the former any more, if they can't be bothered to keep their advert up to date then they're missing out. The other one is KJB models, who specialise in second hand (apparently, never used them), so you'd think they'd object more to the N'porium. The only other advert I ever conscious notice is Only Me's JUAs (?) and coal loads for HTAs.

Whilst I'm at it, and as you've invited my opinions I would:

- Massively reduce the sub forums, A-Z is a waste of time, look at how many threads get moved, clearly people don't know where to post new threads, and there's huge overlap. It would simplify your jobs massively.

- Close fewer threads, some will go off topic, they'll come back, I hate that because someone started a thread they can arbitrarily decide to close it whilst there's relevant and interesting discussion going on. Close threads for attracting spam, going irretrievably off topic or because it's resulted in arguing or personal insults

That's probably about it!

Online emjaybee

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Re: Comments About Forum. Formerly:- apt
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2017, 06:00:11 PM »
+1

 :thankyousign:
Brookline build thread:

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=50207.msg652736#msg652736

Sometimes you bite the dog...

...sometimes the dog bites you!

----------------------------------------------------------

I can explain it to you...

...but I can't understand it for you.

Offline Sprintex

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Re: Comments About Forum. Formerly:- apt
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2017, 06:31:46 PM »
1. allow all manufacturers to post 'press releases', perhaps in a dedicated part of the forum. This would include 'forthcoming product' type announcements, updates, invitations for feedback etc, prices would be fine

Quote
3. not allow retailers or manufacturers to post links to their own shop without prior permission, definitely not start their own thread,

So allow manufacturers to post press releases, with prices, but not start their own thread? That's a contradiction for a start ???

Also you can't compare NGF to rmweb for the simple reason the former is funded mainly by paying advertisers and member donations (as has already been said) and the latter has a major publications PLC behind it paying for everything! What works there doesn't necessarily work here.


Paul

Offline Tank

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Re: Comments About Forum. Formerly:- apt
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2017, 06:41:01 PM »
Right, so in the last 24 hours there's been no bottleneck, that's a daft extrapolation to say there'll never be one. Say (hypothetically speaking, obviously wouldn't wish this on you) you were hospitalised, then what? Surely you can identify that there's a key man dependency here, and that's not good.

You're quite right that I could be hospitalised or such.  I did NOT say that they'd never be a bottleneck and you're surmising that there has been.  Thankfully it hasn't happened and it has never been a problem in 6 years.  The Global Moderator would take over my role, then Moderator.

Basically you're suggesting that ANYONE can post links to whatever site they have without anyone checking it.  Anyone can put their products on the forum for sale, which would obviously reduce the amount of advertisers on the forum (more than what you've noted).  This would lead to a drop in advertisers, and we're not supported by publications or owned by another company.

I quite agree with you about the Boards and Sub Boards on here.  At the time a number of members were keen on it, but I have heard that some members aren't keen - especially on the mobile version of the forum.

Offline njee20

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Re: Comments About Forum. Formerly:- apt
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2017, 06:53:45 PM »
1. allow all manufacturers to post 'press releases', perhaps in a dedicated part of the forum. This would include 'forthcoming product' type announcements, updates, invitations for feedback etc, prices would be fine

Quote
3. not allow retailers or manufacturers to post links to their own shop without prior permission, definitely not start their own thread,

So allow manufacturers to post press releases, with prices, but not start their own thread? That's a contradiction for a start ???

Not to start their own thread for selling without permission, that's entirely different from a press release announcing new/forthcoming products. I originally wrote retailers, then added manufacturers, can't decide quite where I sit on that.

Offline njee20

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Re: Comments About Forum. Formerly:- apt
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2017, 08:02:06 PM »
Right, so in the last 24 hours there's been no bottleneck, that's a daft extrapolation to say there'll never be one. Say (hypothetically speaking, obviously wouldn't wish this on you) you were hospitalised, then what? Surely you can identify that there's a key man dependency here, and that's not good.


You're quite right that I could be hospitalised or such.  I did NOT say that they'd never be a bottleneck and you're surmising that there has been.  Thankfully it hasn't happened and it has never been a problem in 6 years.  The Global Moderator would take over my role, then Moderator.


I'm really trying to provide constructive feedback, and you're picking up on my semantics. Surely you can understand that having a process that relies on one single person is a bottleneck. You can add the word "potential" in there if it's not happened, but it will, at some point. Ok there's a hierarchy in place should you be incapacitated, you didn't say that, you've said that people have to PM you. If you're unavailable then what though? How does the Global Moderator get notified? What if you started getting 50 times as many requests?

Basically you're suggesting that ANYONE can post links to whatever site they have without anyone checking it.  Anyone can put their products on the forum for sale, which would obviously reduce the amount of advertisers on the forum (more than what you've noted).  This would lead to a drop in advertisers, and we're not supported by publications or owned by another company.


I'm suggesting that cottage industry types should be able to post links to their stuff, yes. I see no reason why people should feel you're endorsing or checking anything that is posted on here, and I don't think it should be your responsibility to personally vet every post. Links to Shapeways products (say) are not "sold" via the forum, you're not a shop. There's obviously that attitude among some on here that you are in some way responsible, I'm not sure how you combat that. I think it's in part a symptom of the forum that people are lulled into a false sense of security. Perhaps I just want the forum to be something it isn't, I'm not saying my ideas are good or right, purely my feedback, off the cuff, so there may be holes.

I'm (perhaps wrongly) assuming that 'success' for the forum would be for it to be much bigger, so advice around encouraging manufacturers is based on that. If you are happy with the very tight knit 'community' feel it has currently, then don't do anything.

FWIW this is the forum in which I participate most (about 25,000 posts), it's a cycling forum, but with more posts in the chat section if anyone fancies a look, there are common threads with here - what are you listening to etc. It strives to do all the same things as here, but is left to be far more organic; you'll find few locked threads, there is some arguing, but it works. Very heavily reliant on advertising revenue, they're vastly more intrusive than here but members can subscribe for a monthly fee (I do) to have it advert-free.

I know I've clashed with a number on here, which suggests I'm the 'problem' rather than the forum, but I conduct myself in the same way as I would in real life, perhaps that's just different to others on here, rightly or wrongly! To me, the NGF feels like "if Disney did a forum", there's a slightly peculiar niceness I find a little false. "Political" posts getting deleted when there's less political leaning than the BBC is quite strange IMO. People will clash when they have opinions, and I for one have no issue with this.

I'm in no way bashing the forum, the mods, members, or anything else. I like it here, I wouldn't post otherwise. Just giving my opinion. Feel free to do with it as you please!

Offline Sprintex

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Re: Comments About Forum. Formerly:- apt
« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2017, 09:52:47 AM »
To me, the NGF feels like "if Disney did a forum", there's a slightly peculiar niceness I find a little false. "Political" posts getting deleted when there's less political leaning than the BBC is quite strange IMO. People will clash when they have opinions, and I for one have no issue with this.

Well that's just insulted a whole chunk of the membership! Yes Chris did strive to create a model railway forum that was different to the others out there, and believe it or not most people who join here actually like it that way. We get many comments about how nice and friendly it is here with very little of the political posturing that frequents most mainly male-orientated pursuits, and that's because we don't allow it and deal with those who try to deliberately cause arguments. In fact, many regard this place as a "safe haven" where they can come to chat about trains or other topics and escape from the political and other rubbish we get bombarded with by the media in general on a daily basis.

If being nice to other people is so 'false' to you then that explains why your somewhat abrasive and sarcastic manner has caused clashes, it doesn't excuse it though by any means. Maybe you're missing the point that most members here ARE nice, polite, friendly people who like to help others and don't feel the need to argue to prove anything. That is also presumably why many hundreds have not jumped in to have their say in this thread? Because on the whole they like it here and are happy with the way it is run, maybe not 100% happy with absolutely everything (and that goes for me too incidentally, but like many I appreciate it's Chris' forum to run his way, and I'm happy to help enforce HIS rules, not mine), but happy enough to compromise a little out of mutual respect for what other people might want as well.


Paul 
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 10:03:17 AM by Sprintex »

Offline njee20

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Re: Comments About Forum. Formerly:- apt
« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2017, 10:03:03 AM »
I didn't seek to insult anyone, and I'm not entirely sure how you can construe that I have. I have made an observation about the forum, because Chris asked what I'd do. I proffered my opinion. I said that's what it  is. I've not called out specific members or groups of members, so if you've taken offence then I think you're looking to be offended.

I'm not saying I want the place to be anarchy, obviously. There's a big difference between being nice and it being a little artificial IMO. Again, my opinion, I'm glad members find it a "safe haven", I guess that comes down to my point that perhaps I want the forum to be something it isn't. I want to discuss n gauge stuff. Unilateral discussions are a little pointless! What I would deem a discussion seems by some to be seen as arguing.

If I'm "abrasive and sarcastic" that's probably because I am in real life, not because I'm seeking to cause problems.

Edit: I'm going to stop now. I was asked my opinion, I gave it. You clearly don't like me and seem intent on dismissing it out of hand. I know I'm not alone in my thoughts as I've discussed it with a number of friends I've met via forums (this and others), but I'm glad the forum exists and occupies its own place.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 10:07:38 AM by njee20 »

Offline austinbob

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Re: Comments About Forum. Formerly:- apt
« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2017, 10:21:43 AM »
I haven't taken too much notice of this thread as it doesn't interest me much and seems to be going nowhere. But its been going on so long now I feel the need to make a comment or two.

I'm not very bright but the rules of the forum seem pretty clear to me. I'm sure, if the rules are not clear to anyone, it would be a good idea to PM Tank or another moderator for clarification. That's assuming each poster has read the rules before posting in the first place!

This forum, in my opinion, has a very good balance in allowed/unallowed content and has a general 'nice' feel to it - I'm sure this encourages new membership and keeps the existing membership interested and happy. Surely that's what its all about.

The moderators, in my opinion do a great job in keeping the balance. It is impossible to please everyone all of the time.

As far as this forum is concerned - if it aint broke - don't fix it!!

I'm going back to look at the interesting stuff now. Hopefully this thread will just fade away and others will also go back to the interesting stuff also.

 :thankyousign: :beers:

« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 10:45:20 AM by austinbob »
Size matters - especially if you don't have a lot of space - and N gauge is the answer!

Bob Austin

Online red_death

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Re: Comments About Forum. Formerly:- apt
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2017, 11:39:47 AM »
Sorry Paul but that is exactly part of the problem.  I'm with Nick in that Mods do: lock threads too often; censor too much; and get too personally involved.  Being a Mod is a difficult job at the best of times but is not made any easier by taking things so personally or making personal comments about other people's posts.  The job of a Mod is to moderate not make things worse!

Cheers, Mike



 

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