A British domestic train from Kato? 800 series available from May 2021

[jpendle]

There does seem to have been an underestimation of how many of these will run on DCC.

I wonder 

Based on the numbers that have been bandied about here and elsewhere.

Production run of 10k, of which 1k destined for the UK market.
Let's guess that 50% will be run on DCC, so that's 500.
There's at least two brands of decoder, Kato & Zimo, so that's 250 per brand max.

These decoders  can only be used in Kato models, so if I were a decoder manufacturer I wouldn't be rushing to produce hundreds of these when my Next18, 6 pin, Plux 22, etc, decoders will sell in much larger quantities.

I'm sure more decoders will get built but they'll more likely be built to order rather than speculatively.

Regards,

John P

[Graham]

understand the economics, but i still want my two sets of decoders. I can run at home but not at the club as that is DCC only, and I want to show them off.
Also there may be more from either manufacturer as I understand the same set also fits the Kato ICE sets.

[N_GaugeModeller]

Perhaps some enterprising little company will produce a Kato to Next18 converter for them. Looks like it should be doable.

Anyone fried a decoder yet, I know one of the YouTubers I follow has had one die already, anyone else ?

NGM

[Kaput]

I managed to kill one of the Zimo headlight decoders trying to get it sitting correctly to work in both directions....

[Shropshire Lad]

All three decoders went in and work ok. Can't find the function number for operating the "Welding up the cracks" sounds though 
Cheers Colin

[Graham]

i'll worry about the decoders when i can finally take delivery of mine, have a nice static display at the moment.

[Dr Al]

Very interesting to get a LNER one of these, a return to Hattons from a certain Youtuber, with supposedly shorting lights that'd blown their decoder.

Fixed in less than a minute, the problem was a displaced rocking wiper contact piece in the offending car, presumably then shorting the decoder. Put it back in place, everything back to as it should be, and all lights working fine.

In terms of the debates on cost, etc etc....maybe one factor is that Kato have used a 3 pole (yes....three pole) motor in this. It does partly explain why sleeper creep isn't at all great - a 40 year old 3 pole non-skew wound Farish can creep better..... hopefully with running in that will improve*....

...that may also explain some of the strange pulsing observed on DCC that has been reported by two on Youtube I've seen - a 3 pole extreme skew wound armature is a fairly uncommon motor design in the UK market - I can think of no other model with such (skew wound yes, 3 pole yes, but not together). Tuning the PWM of a decoder output for this therefore may not be immediately obvious.

Overall model runs very nicely, looks the part, but it's very clear that despite those waxing lyrical, these are well designed but ultimately models that have far far fewer parts than Farish or Dapol, that don't bother with DCC and complex PCBs (hence the slightly heath robinson need to break the contact wiper connections as the means to install what are essentially after market decoders - clearly the Japanese market has not got the memo on NEM651 or 652, sockets, etc!), have 3 pole motors, and are made in much bigger production runs - all of which explain at a jot the price differential.

Having taken it apart, it really compares almost identically to the Eurostar, a design some 25 years older, indeed the Eurostar has a superior 5 pole motor, albeit inferior couplers (though qudos to Kato for making an update for these available for Eurostar). Build wise they are very similar of mostly plastic construction, and all clip together, nothing glued or screwed (not that I like glued, but screwed is better than clips or glue). I have to conclude really that what Farish, Dapol, Revolution are making these days is actually much more advanced - not that this is by any means a bad model. Kato are making something simply, quickly, with established design ethos, robustly and that will run likely forever; but it's certainly not cutting edge.

Overall I hope they have success with it - but I predict more returns from lighting problems in the end cars due to displaced contacts - good if you're willing to gamble that they can be put back in place, and then grab a bargain!

Cheers,
Alan

* I have a spare 5 pole Eurostar motor which looks dimensionally similar, so it may be fun to swap them at some point if it actually fits, and see the creep performance with that...

[Adam1701D]

I agree that the 800s are simpler in design than some comparable products in N and if this has helped to keep the cost reasonable, then I'm all for it. Hopefully, the attractively-priced starter sets with those striking trains will encourage some younger modellers towards N. As the Hornby 5-car 800 tops out at around £450.00, it's a big thing in it's favour.

On a side note, I intend to take a look at the roof and underframe differences between the 800 and the later 802 (the subject of my TPx and HT vinyls) - the latter has extra equipment on the roof for the rheostatic brakes, which could make an interesting 3D print project.

[njee20]

I have to agree with Alan (and others who've said the same). It's a great model, and well priced, but I'm not for all the waxing lyrical about "this will make Dapol amd Farish take notice". There are already (rightly so) mumblings of discontent about the fact it's a 3 month wait for decoders. There are a lot of details missing which you'd expect on a Farish/Dapol/Revolution model - moulded detail rather than separately applied, unpainted detail and so on.

I've always thought the same of their US locos frankly - when I nearly bought one a few years ago I thought the detail was woeful (far worse, comparatively, than the 800), although they are mechanically very good.

Pleased to have bought one, and really pleased they're dipping a toe into the UK market, I really hope we see more, but it's not really 'upping the game' in any area IMO.

[RailGooner]

I think Kato have challenged others to 'up their game' with the short gestation time between announcement and delivery to market. BUT (big but), that's a challenge no one will pick up so it's a moot point. Can anyone genuinely compete with Kato?!

One difference Kato might effect to the UK market is that, having seen the speed with which Kato can bring a product to market, others might be more guarded about plans for new models (particularly MUs,) for fear of Kato gazumping them.

[gc4946]

In terms of producing anywhere near a complete range of British prototypes, Kato won't compete directly with Farish; they'll have a niche, Peco and Kato in a joint venture are bringing out Festiniog 009 scale locos.
The 800/801/802s are the current state of the art express passenger units in Britain.
Surely Kato are looking at options to produce 802s and other future derivatives.

[osborns]

go on Adam
tell them who you latest customer is. He won't mind
regards
M

[njee20]

In terms of producing anywhere near a complete range of British prototypes, Kato won't compete directly with Farish; they'll have a niche, Peco and Kato in a joint venture are bringing out Festiniog 009 scale locos.
The 800/801/802s are the current state of the art express passenger units in Britain.
Surely Kato are looking at options to produce 802s and other future derivatives.

I don't believe so, no. Haven't they said there's nothing until 2024 at the earliest, and that's predicated on the success of the first run? Given it's well publicised they expect to sell more in Japan than anywhere I think it's moderately unlikely we'll see all of the variants that people are hoping for. I'm relatively surprised they didn't do a 9-car variant.

I think any subsequent products from Kato will be other units of Japanese origin. Would love to see them do some other models, but I just can't see them doing other very-UK centric MUs like the Electrostar family, which feel like a glaring hole from the modern scene.

[BertFredStan]

My feelings are similar. I have a GWR example; it's a solid if unremarkable model, although is well within what I'd consider acceptable, especially for the price.

I suspect some of the gushing over it is the simple fact that it exists. Kato have delivered an easily accessible class 800 in N, and on a relatively quick turnaround at that. I too think Kato are 'upping the game' in that sense - just getting it done. I can imagine the hesitation that Farish/Dapol might have with such a project, let alone Revolution. Not that I think it would be unreasonable - Kato obviously have the upper hand here.

If this opens the doors to more affordable British stock that may not exist otherwise I'll happily take it. Time will tell.

[Adam1701D]

go on Adam
tell them who you latest customer is. He won't mind
regards
M

I couldn't possible comment, except to say that some Azuma vinyl sets are heading home