A Question About Buying Kits

[Richard G Dallimore]

Interesting discussion, I do try to cover everything in my kits, for my building kits I even looked into glue but gave up as the one I wanted could not be bought in at a cost effective way. I havealso looked at paints as iI would like to do a complete kit for kids, but I do not think it would legal or worth it.

[ScottyStitch]

Alan,

Meant to say I agree wholeheartedly with this statement:

What I think matters is that it is clear what you are going to get. If it's a scratch aid then it should be described as such.

And I find you're own site very good in this respect.

Scotty

[joe cassidy]

Alan,

I think there is a lot of truth in what you say, and I certainly agree with much of it, but having read your post I did have a couple of thoughts.

Your earlier comment, "See we don't care.. if it's more work than you'll pay for then it's better you go elsewhere", I think is an unfortunate thing to say, especially on a forum which I would think comprises a good chunk of your N gauge business? Customers, I'm sure, don't appreciate being told by a manufacturer or shop, that their needs/wants/opinions aren't valued.

Scotty,

I don't think that Alan's comment was meant literally. I think he was being ironic, or whatever the technical term is.

Alan does care, and one of the things that is included in the price when you buy his kits is free advice about the bits you need to finish the model.

Best regards,


Joe

[RussellH]

Hi Guys

Thanks to the 75 of 3064 members that have voted so far = 2.4% turn out...

Some very interesting opinions and ideas. No magic bullet but plenty for us to learn from with the MPV, RHT 92 and upcoming releases.

Regards
Russ

[EtchedPixels]

Your earlier comment, "See we don't care.. if it's more work than you'll pay for then it's better you go elsewhere", I think is an unfortunate thing to say, especially on a forum which I would think comprises a good chunk of your N gauge business? Customers, I'm sure, don't appreciate being told by a manufacturer or shop, that their needs/wants/opinions aren't valued.

I was only replying in response to the 'threat' being. If you want something for less than it costs then if you spend the money on a different hobby we'd both be happier. And I kind of trusted the  would indicate appropriate levels of humour

Your point about increasing the cost of your kit from £10 to £50 when you add all the extra parts needed to complete it; Apart from the cost of instructions, that £50 total exists for the modeler regardless because he has to source those extra parts him/herself, no? But I'd have thought the modeler would be more inclined to buy another kit from you because he/she knew it was all there to start with and that he/she could trust you to provide a complete product.

No. Much of that cost is organising stuff, making more parts and holding stock. Generally I can't buy ten packs of bits from other small vendors for much of a reduction if any, so I'd have to charge the buyer the cost of the part, the cost of me getting it from the supplier, the cost of repacking it, the cost of sending it on.

It also depends a lot on the kit and the people. I have done some experimenting and as far as I can tell

- for introductory kits or kits designed to be easy to build instructions matter a lot, as does knowing how to finish the kit. For cheap and intro kits people actually often don't want the extra parts. I know quite a few people used rounded pins for the LBSCR four wheelers (as the instructions suggests as a cheap choice) rather than accurate torpedo vents.

- for more middling complexity kits people want instructions and full kits -  but some people just want etched sides and will scratchbuild the rest (which is why those kits I do sell in two forms). Bogie choice also varies a lot hence I don't generally include bogies. That for Ultima goes between 'I'll use some vaguely similar RTR bogie' right to 'I want to use 2mmSA fine scale bogies and wheels'

- for small run, obscure stuff, or things where the design means you need to scratchbuild some parts (eg etched shells with filler for roof domes), then as far as I can tell it makes no difference if it has detailed instructions or not.

Secondly, I wonder how many more kits you might sell if it was known that some clear instructions were provided? A lot of people are put off kit building, particularly in model railway terms, precisely because of the fact that it is a daunting enough prospect for many to take a kit and produce a good job of it. Provide no, or unhelpful, instructions, and that feeling is multiplied. Any help the manufacturer can give is surely a win-win. The modeler gets a helping hand, the manufacturer gets repeat business. Even something as simple as "assemble these components first. Next, attach this component." I don't think it needs to be a series of exploded diagrams, a la Hasegawa.

I've tried to measure this by comparing some of the kits (and also what people ask). As far as I can tell for a lot of newer kit builders the deciders appear to be

"Can I stick it on an existing Peco chassis"
"Is it cheap (or I guess 'am I risking little if I can't finish it')"
"Does it include RTR bogies and couplers"

Part of a forum members gripe to the NGF in letter form, was the fact that kit building or "real" modeling was in decline. I think more people would build more kits if they were more accessible.

I'm actually not convinced it is. Maybe per N gauger but not I think in total. I am seeing plenty of people who email me saying "I've never built an etched kit before..." and who are usually worried about soldering, priming and painting. That's one of the reasons I did some of the little four wheel coaches.

I do wonder if the apparent fading of clubs is more connected - we all sit on the interwotsit and that's just not the same as sitting down with someone from the same club building a kit together. There are still opportunities to do this (eg http://www.missendenrailwaymodellers.org.uk/) but not perhaps as many and as easily.

For the record, all of my stock is RTR so far, but I certainly intend to build kits of stock, particularly if it isn't available RTR. I've already purchased my first kit, a Parkwood diesel brake tender.

Good choice. In fact I'd recommend the Parkwood class 15/16/10800 as an excellent starter for kit locomotives as well. In fact 10800 is a great starter as it fits onto the 20 chassis *and* it's black, with black bits so the only bit of painting beyond a black spraycan is the buffer beam! Modelmaster do the needed numbers for it as well.

One final thought, and this isn't related directly to your post but merely an observation with regard to kit built locomotives.

When the bulk RTR producers present us with a new model, there are countless comments regarding the inaccuracies of the model, sometimes with regard to the minutest of details, paint shades, etc.  However, when it comes to kit locomotives, it seems that the same people are happy to use an "approximate" chassis or an inappropriate bogie for that locomotive body, and wide bristle paintwork. I genuinely wonder why this is..... 

I'm probably going to offend someone now  . My own impression is that while there are some modellers who want it all RTR and perfect (despite using narrow track, foot wide wheels and couplings the size of a volkswagen beetle) there are a lot who are not quite so fussy. You don't hear that because while everyone who cares jumps up and down a lot, those who don't stay quiet and happy.

Eg the Farish 24 has major errors. Most people haven't noticed. A lot of people who have noticed aren't fussed (it's still a nice 24 thank you) and a tiny number have gone and fixed it. It's rated very highly as a model.

Likewise Union Mills seems to be doing a fine trade in solid locos that are not that detailed.

The other thing to me is that a kit is something you build from. I've got to paint it anyway and it arrives in bits so it's actually much easier to correct, customise and/or detail than many RTR models. A poorly detailed kit isn't a big deal. I do get peeved about both RTR locos and kits that are the wrong shape because that's one thing you *can't* fix.

My last is not meant as a criticism of any person or group of persons, merely something that perplexes me.

In fact, none of what I've written is meant as criticism, just my thoughts.

Scotty

Some very interesting points.

BTW you should thank Allen Doherty at Worsley Works for "scratch aid" - he came up with the term as I understand it as a good way to distinguish from full kits.

Ntastic: Out of curiousity - do you get the impression that your customers (especially at shows) have different expectations about what is in a 'kit bought at a show retail' and online stuff ?

Alan

[PaulCheffus]

When the bulk RTR producers present us with a new model, there are countless comments regarding the inaccuracies of the model, sometimes with regard to the minutest of details, paint shades, etc.  However, when it comes to kit locomotives, it seems that the same people are happy to use an "approximate" chassis or an inappropriate bogie for that locomotive body, and wide bristle paintwork. I genuinely wonder why this is..... 

Hi

Generally kit manufacturers don't have the money to produce a new chassis for their kit but a RTR manufacturer has the money to develop a completely new chassis so I personally would expect them to get it right.

Cheers

Paul

[MikeDunn]

If you want something for less than it costs then if you spend the money on a different hobby we'd both be happier.

Errr ... where did I say I wanted something for less than it costs ?

Much of that cost is organising stuff, making more parts and holding stock. Generally I can't buy ten packs of bits from other small vendors for much of a reduction if any, so I'd have to charge the buyer the cost of the part, the cost of me getting it from the supplier, the cost of repacking it, the cost of sending it on.

Which I acknowledge, and is why I said I'm happy to do this as long as I know what's needed.  The point being many of the small mfrs don't tell us !

I do try to cover everything in my kits, for my building kits I even looked into glue but gave up as the one I wanted could not be bought in at a cost effective way.

And kudos to you for that.  The mfrs who do this are more likely, in my view, to succeed than those who can't be arsed.  I hope you keep this up 

[Mr Sprue]

A poll to help us gauge in the future how members would like to buy kits/models.

Nice one Tank, I've been reading this thread with very keen interest! 

BTW you should thank Allen Doherty at Worsley Works for "scratch aid" - he came up with the term as I understand it as a good way to distinguish from full kits.

Alan

Correct! Not only that a very nice chap to know also! 

[ParkeNd]

Tanks original question is the most important question worth asking for a business - what does the customer expect of us. The second question worth asking is "and are we meeting that expectation"

Both questions, the one asked and the one that might have been asked, seem to me to have been answered albeit in a range of styles. The customer wants complete kits of parts and good quality instructions. Generally that does not seem to be what is provided, and the gap between customer expectations and what the customer wants is being defended by businesses that are still small.

The only worthwhile objective for big and small businesses is the same - anything that is not for the customer is simply not worth doing.

Metcalfe Kits seem to be doing what the customer wants and are finding ways to add extra value for the customer in ways they can afford. And they are prospering if recent magazine articles are anything to go on - greater sales, better premises, more staff, and new products in the pipeline.

The concerns customers have raised need to be shown to have been taken on board and action plans being developed. Or it's curtains in the medium term.

[EtchedPixels]

The concerns customers have raised need to be shown to have been taken on board and action plans being developed. Or it's curtains in the medium term.

IFF you are a real business. A lot of the small manufacturers appear, make things because they wanted them, the items get superseded and they stop making them. If you aren't in it for money then if nobody is asking for the item that's great - more time to work on the layout or go to the pub 

Alan

[BernardTPM]

Tanks original question is the only question worth asking for a business - what does the customer expect of us. The second question worth asking is "and are we meeting that expectation"

The third vital question is "are we able to do that and make sufficient profit to continue the business?"

The only worthwhile objective for big and small businesses is the same - anything that is not for the customer is simply not worth doing.

Though that doesn't mean that everything for the customer is worth doing.

[ParkeNd]

Tanks original question is the only question worth asking for a business - what does the customer expect of us. The second question worth asking is "and are we meeting that expectation"

The third vital question is "are we able to do that and make sufficient profit to continue the business?"

The only worthwhile objective for big and small businesses is the same - anything that is not for the customer is simply not worth doing.

Though that doesn't mean that everything for the customer is worth doing.

Sadly have heard both points argued before and by companies for whom I worked (because I needed the job). Those companies don't exist any more. But the ones who worked solely for what their customers expected are thriving. Costs do have to be controlled when sales are low, but the emphasis can't change away from what the customer needs.

[BernardTPM]

Bottom line, the objective of a business is to sell goods and/or services at a profit. Exactly how it does that can be endlessly debated and there are endless examples to choose from. There is also short term, medium term and long term to consider:
Short term - Make a profit by selling goods or services.
Medium term - Make sufficient profit to be able to restock/keep expertise (if just services).
Long term - Make sufficient profit to be able to develop new products and/or services.

Obviously having customers that keep coming back for more helps the medium and long term. If a business wants to survive long term that's probably the best way to do it.

[PLD]

Option four in the poll isn't "kit building" it's buying a custom made model!!

Of the other options, I'm not too worried about everything being in the box so long as the required add-ons are easily obtainable and ideally the packaging clearly states what is needed without having to buy the kit, open it and read through the instructions to find you need a left-handed widget that was last produced in 1986!

[Mr Sprue]

For someone whom is entering the world of being a kit manufacturer, this debate so far has been invaluable. A lot of the comments made here have pretty much confirmed my original conceptualisation to produce a kit that the hobbyist will take pleasure in assembling, without of course hopefully avoiding the need to scavenge around for additional parts that are either costly or hard to source.

Having said that there's no way would I ever really criticise kit manufacturers past or present, unless of course they are trying to sell a product that is a diabolical rip off. But like anything produced today there is always room for improvement and of course with new involvement brings fresh ideas.

Its because of established kit producers in the hobby why I have been inspired to venture on the road I am on now, my own personal conception being that it is a bit of a minefield to realistically buy something that is modeler friendly, the description "scratch aid" seems to be used quite frequently and to me indicates that for someone not adequately prepared mentally or toolwise, would have just purchased a difficult puzzle that will eventually end up on ebay or in the bin.

But most important of all, it must be understood without their (the kit manufacturers) valuable contributions modeling would not have the diversity it has today, as these pioneers have not only provided variety but have also possibly influenced RTR manufactures in some way or form.

So for me the remarks made here have been noted and really appreciated