An imaginary cross country train (1960s) - "The Western"

[Newportnobby]

I'm looking into creating an imaginary train running from York to Penzance in the mid 60s travelling down the ECML to Sandy, then across to Oxford for a loco change before heading off to the west country. Initial loco maybe a Deltic or Brush Type 4, changing at Oxford to a Western for the remainder of the journey. I've estimated times based on distances between locations.
What does the collective think, and would someone like to suggest a formation of MK1s please?

[port perran]

Hi Mick

Thinking about the SW part of the journey :

Bristol to Exeter is only 1 hour (almost exactly ) to include a 2 min stop at Taunton.

Exeter to Plymouth is around 47 mins including the usual Cross Country stops at Newton Abbot  and Totnes.

Plymouth to Penzance is more leisurely even at today's speeds and is usually 117 mins or so. It's further than you think and even Cross Country trains will make several stops eg Liskeard, Bodmin Road Parkway, Par, St Austell, Truro, Redruth, Camborne and PZ.
It's a long old haul. I should know as I used to do it often enough.
Hope that helps

Martin

[crewearpley40]

Mick

Have you considered working timetables

Railwaybooks.co.uk
Transportpasttimes.co.uk


Sadly I can't help with steam locomotive haulage except rmweb

Formations maybe the odd Gresley or Stanier in the formation but a brake coach or two, corridor, open and a restaurant/ catering vehicle would be included and maybe a portion for Newquay/ St Ives and the lovely coastal destinations would be included

[PLD]

There would very likely be 2 or 3 stops for a change of crew on the way (due to route knowledge) but potentially the same loco would work right through if it was a type known to all crews. Brush type-4 (cl 47) were, and the other possibility is a Peak.

As to formation, the closest example I can offer up is a 1966 Newcastle-Poole (via York/Derby/Oxford) 'Summer Saturday only' which is given as Brake-composite/First/First/Buffet/Second/Second/Second/Second/Brake-Second/Composite/Second. Doesn't specify whether corridor or open, I'd guess probably corridor for the firsts and brake-comp, but the rest could be either.

The Comp & Second after the second Brake are interesting - I'd guess at strengthening over the core formation, either Seasonal or Weekend so you could drop those two for a shorter formation.

[PLD]

Formations maybe the odd Gresley or Stanier in the formation

Given the route suggested, it's most likely a NE Region train, so Gresleys/Thompsons are possibles but Stanier very unlikely, especially odd single coaches - they tried not to because of the need for a gangway adaptor to fit to mk1s...

Sadly I can't help with steam locomotive haulage

That's OK - neither the Deltic not the Western mentioned are steam locos 

[Newportnobby]

Hi Mick
Thinking about the SW part of the journey :
Bristol to Exeter is only 1 hour (almost exactly ) to include a 2 min stop at Taunton.
Exeter to Plymouth is around 47 mins including the usual Cross Country stops at Newton Abbot  and Totnes.
Plymouth to Penzance is more leisurely even at today's speeds and is usually 117 mins or so. It's further than you think and even Cross Country trains will make several stops eg Liskeard, Bodmin Road Parkway, Par, St Austell, Truro, Redruth, Camborne and PZ.
It's a long old haul. I should know as I used to do it often enough.
Hope that helps

Martin

Hi Martin,
Thanks for the info but you often mention 'is' whereas I'm going back 60 years or so. Would that still apply? I have not factored in any stops other than those in my rudimentary timetable which is, of course, a work of fiction

Mick
Have you considered working timetables
Railwaybooks.co.uk
Transportpasttimes.co.uk
Sadly I can't help with steam locomotive haulage except rmweb
Formations maybe the odd Gresley or Stanier in the formation but a brake coach or two, corridor, open and a restaurant/ catering vehicle would be included and maybe a portion for Newquay/ St Ives and the lovely coastal destinations would be included

I'll check those timetables out, Chris, but am not aiming for total accuracy.
Steam does not feature in my imagined journey but coaching stock is up for discussion. Ta

[crewearpley40]

Possible Type 4 south on first leg, Western west of Bristol

Its Rule 1. A Restaurant Car be nice but Catering as Paul suggested useful

[port perran]

Hi Mick

Those times are current but I doubt that they varied much in the mid 60s so if you aren't going for anything too exact then you won't I think, be far off.

As for traction, I'm not so sure about Peaks or Class 47s working right through in the mid 60s.
I don't think they got as far down as Penzance until late 60s/early 70s.
I can check for certain if you want me to look it up.

And, were Penzance to York trains a thing?
Wouldn't they take the Bristol, Birmingham, Sheffield route? Or is Rule 1 coming into play which is fine.

[Newportnobby]

Possible Type 4 south on first leg, Western west of Bristol

Its Rule 1. A Restaurant Car be nice but Catering as Paul suggested useful

Not sure why a Western only Western of Bristol as I've seen many at Oxford

Hi Mick

And, were Penzance to York trains a thing?
Wouldn't they take the Bristol, Birmingham, Sheffield route? Or is Rule 1 coming into play which is fine.

Aaaarrrgh. I hate Rule 1
The train has to pass through Oxford even if it's been diverted for some reason
I can imagine a lot of luggage on such a working so would expect a full BG to feature

[Lagrange1]

From Table 135 in a 1980-81 public timetable here's part of a journey of a summer Saturday cross country service

Bristol depart 13.08

Exeter arrive 14.22
Exeter depart 14.23

Calls at Teignmouth and Newton Abbot

Plymouth arrive 15.39
Plymouth depart 15.57

Calling all stations from Liskeard

Penzance arrive 18.06

[martyn]

I'm not expert, but 45 minutes for loco change seems excessive. And frustrating for passengers...Ten minutes would probably be more than enough.

Martyn

[EtchedPixels]

Plymouth you'd need to drop some coaches back then for the grades and the short platforms so you'd probably want the buffet and a few coaches such that you can drop the train end at Plymouth ?

ie you'd want

Brake blah blah blah Brake catering blah blah brake

[Wrinkly1]

I used to travel from Bristol to Crewe during my college days. In 1966 and 1967 the 'recommended' route was via Newport and Shrewsbury but around 1968 this changed to using the NE/SW trains via B'ham NS. The motive power via Newport was almost always a Western hydraulic loco but via B'ham it was almost always a Peak (although I can remember a Class 31 being used from Birmingham to Gloucester on one occasion - possibly a failure substitute).
I honestly cannot imagine a regular service from York to Cornwall using Oxford although my girlfriend (now wife of 55 years) did get diverted that way on one occasion following a crash.
Earlier this year my train from Bristol was diverted through the Severn Tunnel and Chepstow following a bridge strike. Even that short diversion added 75 minutes to the journey!

[Newportnobby]

I honestly cannot imagine a regular service from York to Cornwall using Oxford although my girlfriend (now wife of 55 years) did get diverted that way on one occasion following a crash.

(Seizes on this as perfect justification )
Please folks, the clue is in the title of the thread - 'Imaginary'
Just as there are no such places as 'Kimbolted' or 'Bletchford' except for in my bonce

[Bealman]

Which is a worrying place at the best of times