Pendolino woes

[PaulCheffus]

Hi

My Pendolino was from the first batch and certainly does have traction tyres.

Cheers

Paul

[jpendle]

Hi,

Both batches of Pendo's, and the CL92 have traction tyres.

Both designed and manufactured by Rapido on behalf of Revolution.

You can determine the decoder manufacturer by reading back CV8.

e.g 145 = Zimo & 151 = ESU.

Regards,

John P

[bwj]

@jpendle @PaulCheffus

Thanks both

Question stil remains is the Pendo better off without the traction tyres when they still run witout them/constant derailments with them?

I'll have a crack tomorrow at reading the chips (the only thing I know is that they were supposed to be identical and compatible with ESU Loko sound chip). The sounds working only when train is stationary is probably down to the peculiarities of the Z21 though - by way of example (using the phone app) if I go into Vehicles/Functions on the Program Track, I can set a function but clicking the "Test" button has no effect. If I go back into the Steering/Vehicle section the saved function will work. Problem is that the app appears to forget saved functions and everything has to be re-programmed.

[njee20]

You seem slightly confused about how decoders work. You have removed the ESU sound chips. There is one chip per loco, which control the motor, sounds and lights. The decoders that your agent has put in do not need to be 'compatible' with the ESU ones - they're wholescale replacements. Presumably he returned your original decoders? They won't be identical, as the Loksound V4 Micro used in the original batch is now obsolete.

IMO they emphatically do run better without traction tyres. Nothing to do with pickup, the conductive couplers handle that, but the excessive traction/derailing. I have a sample size of 9 sets.  I'm not sure if I'm an internet keyboard warrior though, you seem to resolutely ignore everything I say.

The couplings have long springs which feed through holes in the chassis ends to the pickups. The fact that pushing down on the coach roof improves things suggests to me there may be some issues here. If you sent the set to someone reputable though you'd have hoped they'd look at that...

[bwj]

@njee20

Thanks for your advice. I'm not resloutely ignoring you and indeed you are right that I am easily confused 

[The internet keyboard warrior was a reference to my relationship with my inadequate repairer, not anybody else - I'm not going to be a warrior and criticise and name them on a forum in the manner of an Amazon review, until I know all of the facts]

My info is that the installer put in new DCC chips and new sound chips that are compatible with each other precisely because the first batch Lokosound chips are now obsolete.

I'm not suggesting this was wrong - just that I can't set up the sound functions (or that I could set them up originally but the Z21 keeps losing the setup). I just don't know the brands but the CV's and functions can be read in the Z21, they just don't appear to save!

The main loss of enjoyment with the Pendo is the derailments. The repairer insisted traction tyres were needed. Others disagree so where to go - do I get the scalpel out?

[njee20]

No worries, wasn't sure if I was reading too much into your comment!

[jpendle]

To remove the traction tyres, use a fine blade to pop off the bottom of the bogie.

Then the wheelsets will drop out, use a fine blade or tweezers to remove the tyres, then reverse the process to re-assemble.

i have found that my Pendos will not run up steep gradients (> 2%) without the tyres, but on the flat they are OK.

Also the DCC chips ARE the sound chips, so you have one decoder per motorised car, not two.

Also as the person who did the work presumably loaded a sound project onto the decoders they should have given you details of what sounds are on what Function key.

When you test functions in vehicle settings they will only work if they are meant to work when the loco is stationary, and a lot of sound functions expect the loco to be moving (e.g. flange squeal).

Once you have set them up in vehicles, there's no way that they would be lost by the app. I have dozens of locos setup in the Z21 app and have never "lost' any functions.

Regards,

John P

[Hightower]

@jpendle

Did you find you needed all traction tyres removed? I've done a few runs with one removed which was fine at the rear of the train, but when it was the front power car I had constant derailments.

[bwj]

@jpendle @Hightower

Thanks both

Did you find that removing the tyres reduces derailments? I only intend to run mine on the flat.

I still need to solve the speed difference between locos first and isolate that as the cause of the derailments before removing the tyres. I know there is a way to do that with the Z21 but it involves timing circuits with a stopwatch - don't know if there is a simpler way?

Re sounds and the Z21 app there are two frustrations:

In Vehicles/Functions screen illustrated below, the Test Function button does nothing. But the saved function does appear to work in the Steering/Pendolino screen.

What I meant by losing the function is that after setting the function, it appears to work once and then not at all or intermittently. This applies to both sounds that are only supposed to work when stationary/only when moving. Could it be the traction tyres are preventing adequate elctrical pick-up?

[Steven B]

Traction tyres have been used on continental outline models for years without most of the issues that British outline models appear to have with them. Is it the implementation of the way their owners are treating them?

If the Pendo keeps derailing then I'd get down to rail level and have a good look at what's going on. Does it happen randomly or always at the same location? Are any wheels riding up on the track causing the derailment or is the train catching on scenery? I don't know if it's possible to run the Pendo with just a powered car (or just a portion of the train), or with the cars in a non-standard order - if it is, does the problem go away if certain cars are left in the box? Does the problem move if cars are relocated in the train?

To be honest, if I were you I'd stop messing with it and contact Revolution Trains about getting it repaired properly. However they were caused, you shouldn't be having these issues and they're the best placed to get them fixed.

[bwj]

@Steven B

Thanks for the tips but I have been through those steps already.

Derailments are random

They happen when running the full consist or just one loco and a short set of coaches. The only time they don't happen is when running two locos alone coupled to each other. These have traction tyres hence my query of those who say to get rid of them. Link up some coaches to those locos and disaster happens!

Also no other multi-carriage HST's such as my Eurostar or TGV have the same problem on the same layout

[Newportnobby]

Could it be something as simple as back-to-backs on the Pendo?

[bwj]

Could it be something as simple as back-to-backs on the Pendo?

Sorry to ask nobby but what are back to backs??!

[njee20]

The specific issue with the Pendolinos seems to be the fact they're a pair which are slightly mismatched, by design. The traction tyres mean though that the wheels have the most minuscule amount of tolerance before they 'snatch' on the rail and derail. I've spent literally hours on this. I've tried putting all the traction tyres on one power car, I've tried stripping the motor and gears out of one power car (don't do that, the set's too heavy for one power car). Removing the traction tyres works. Frankly simply removing them and leaving the grooved wheelsets works fine on code 55 track. I just found with code 40 the flanges ride the chairs. I've replaced the wheels in mine with printed ones. I've had quotes from China to get some made, but as I said yesterday I'm in dialogue with someone to get them made in the UK.

The back-to-back is the distance between the inner faces of the wheels. It's very unlikely to be the issue with the Pendolino, not least the design of the axles, with two wheels with stub axles and a plastic gear mean it's less likely to be out than a conventional axle design. 

The only bit I've not worked out amid my extensive testing is why my original sets worked perfectly when I got them. I can only think it's because the layout I had at the time had much more gentle curves and longer straights, so there was additional tolerance.

The HST, TGV and Eurostar all have only one powered unit, they're not equal comparators. They're basically just a loco pulling or pushing a number of coaches.

[bwj]

Thanks and appreciated @njee20

The tolerances do appear miniscule. I'm running on Kato track with a gentle wide radius but still get derailments that I didn't have when first purchased, only after "repair" that put the traction tyres back on (as well as reinstalling the DCC/Sound)

Also I appreciate the push/pull may be a factor but I have other HST's with a two motorised cars that don't derail like this.

[By the way @njee20 I saw elsewhere that you design waterslides for liveries. In the long term, after getting the basics working I might want to convert my Pendo from Virgin to Avanti livery, same with my two Dapol Voyagers. Do you have a link to where you sell them or was it just a personal project?]