Am I being unreasonable?

[PennineWagons]

I bought a Bachmann/Farish 8F, but it turned out to be a terrible runner so I took it back to the shop. They didn't have any more in stock, so I swapped it for a Class 44 'Peak'. This ran round for a couple of minutes then ground to a halt with one bogie completely seized up.
Don't know why I bother with GF stuff, it looks nice but never seems to work properly first time. I sent Bachmann a spleen-venting e-mail about this latest fiasco, concluding as follows :-

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Looking at various online forums, it would seem that I am far from being the only customer to have had this kind of experience with GF locos. In fact, GF are widely regarded as having significant quality control issues with their Chinese-made loco mechanisms, which Bachmann Europe appear to be doing little if anything to address. I even came across a thread on the N Gauge Forum which seems to indicate that the problem I encountered with the Class 44 is commonplace not just with this type of loco but with this one particular model. Are Bachmann aware of this? If not, why not? And if you are aware, why haven't you recalled these faulty products from dealers?
Now, to be fair, these are mass-produced hobby items and not hand-made museum-quality replicas, so the occasional fault is inevitably going to crop up. But the faults with GF locos seem to be very much more than occasional. In comparison with the quality and reliability of German or Japanese or American N-Gauge manufacturers, your record is very poor and getting worse. You would no doubt say that if you were charging the same prices as Trix or Fleischmann, or if you were getting the economies of scale from selling to their size of market, then you too could deliver top-notch quality, and I'm sure this is true. But I'm equally sure that even when selling at UK prices to the UK market, there is a minimum quality level which you should realistically be able to aim for, but which you are singularly failing to achieve. This isn't good enough or anywhere near. If you were operating in anything other than a hobby market you would probably have had Trading Standards taking you to court by now. As it is, you're exploiting the goodwill and tolerance of hobby enthusiasts in order to sell them products with an unacceptable level of manufacturing and design faults. Can we hold out any hope of improvement, or will this just carry on until the last N-Gauge punter has finally given up on you?
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Am I being unreasonable, or does anyone else feel like this?
PW

[Donkey]

Well, you have certainly given them it with both barrels PW. Very well written too. I look forward to reading their reply - if any is given. To be honest though, apart from my trouble (nightmare) with getting a good B1, all of my other BacFar locos have been great.

Marty

[Roy L S]

I bought a Bachmann/Farish 8F, but it turned out to be a terrible runner so I took it back to the shop. They didn't have any more in stock, so I swapped it for a Class 44 'Peak'. This ran round for a couple of minutes then ground to a halt with one bogie completely seized up.
Don't know why I bother with GF stuff, it looks nice but never seems to work properly first time. I sent Bachmann a spleen-venting e-mail about this latest fiasco, concluding as follows :-

--------------------------------------------------
Looking at various online forums, it would seem that I am far from being the only customer to have had this kind of experience with GF locos. In fact, GF are widely regarded as having significant quality control issues with their Chinese-made loco mechanisms, which Bachmann Europe appear to be doing little if anything to address. I even came across a thread on the N Gauge Forum which seems to indicate that the problem I encountered with the Class 44 is commonplace not just with this type of loco but with this one particular model. Are Bachmann aware of this? If not, why not? And if you are aware, why haven't you recalled these faulty products from dealers?
Now, to be fair, these are mass-produced hobby items and not hand-made museum-quality replicas, so the occasional fault is inevitably going to crop up. But the faults with GF locos seem to be very much more than occasional. In comparison with the quality and reliability of German or Japanese or American N-Gauge manufacturers, your record is very poor and getting worse. You would no doubt say that if you were charging the same prices as Trix or Fleischmann, or if you were getting the economies of scale from selling to their size of market, then you too could deliver top-notch quality, and I'm sure this is true. But I'm equally sure that even when selling at UK prices to the UK market, there is a minimum quality level which you should realistically be able to aim for, but which you are singularly failing to achieve. This isn't good enough or anywhere near. If you were operating in anything other than a hobby market you would probably have had Trading Standards taking you to court by now. As it is, you're exploiting the goodwill and tolerance of hobby enthusiasts in order to sell them products with an unacceptable level of manufacturing and design faults. Can we hold out any hope of improvement, or will this just carry on until the last N-Gauge punter has finally given up on you?
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Am I being unreasonable, or does anyone else feel like this?
PW

Hi PW

It is of course too late for anyone's opinions to have any sway if you have already sent the e-mail, but do remember that for every bad experience such as yours there are many times more good experiences that are of a silent majority that go unpublished.

Firstly, It would be as well when you start to talk about "commonplace" problems being discussed on Groups such as this to consider how many people have actually posted the "problems" (five or ten maybe?) in the context of the average Farish production run which is 1008 of each livery application. Maybe they actually have a failure rate as low as only one or two percent which yes, is a pain if it is you, but personally I do not see as unreasonable for a mass produced item.

You mention the 44 specifically. (Ironically mine is currently "in dock" having "spat" a driveshaft!). Do remember that it shares an identical chassis with the 45 and 46, and they have probably by now made seven or eight thousand of all types - I am not aware that there has been an excessive failure rate? Also in a generic sense the chassis is the same as the post Bachmann takeover Chinese 25, 31, 37, 47 and 56 chassis and they must have made tens of thousands of those. Most will say they are generally very smooth and the very occasional split gear aside, reliable (including me).

Secondly, you speak of "Design faults". I don't think you can generalise. Personally I think you need to have specific examples of what is of poor design, and why. I actually think that design of Farish locos, both diesel and steam is very good indeed, and getting better (Having seen the Blue Pullman prototype and forthcoming WD in action - truly awesome). Assembly is to me where most issues appear to arise.

Thirdly, again, I would humbly suggest it is better dealing in hard facts. Unless you can back up their record being "poor" and "getting worse" with facts rather than what must be somewhat anecdotal and based on the vocal views of a small minority on online Groups, it will likely carry little weight.

To go as far as suggesting Trading Standards would be involved were it not a hobby product and their exploitation of modellers' goodwill is also for me going somewhat too far.

So, my experience? Very different. I have a very significant number of Farish diesels and steam, my failure rate has been negligible. A 66 and 108 with a split gear (each long out of warranty) - easily fixed and out of seventeen new tender-driven locos the only problem of any kind I have had was a broken drawbar and that was down to my ham-fistedness. The 24 and 37 are superb and I have three 08's and an 04 - all little gems.

To balance it, my experience of Dapol is equally good. One Ivatt tank spat a valve-gear rivet, the model was in warranty and replaced and a 26 which had a partial failure of the lighting circuit, replaced personally by Dave Jones of Dapol - great Customer service.

So, I am sorry not to be able to agree with your approach, but having said all that it is entirely your privilege to do as you have.

Regards

Roy

P.S. Sorry, forgot a Dapol B1 - motor burn out - replaced.

[Dock Shunter]

Have to agree with Roys post in general and say i have a collection of Farish locos....
24s 25 37s 47 101s 108s 150s 04 08......and apart from split gears on a 20 have not had a single problem with any of them....i count myself lucky...sure.....but i think it also shows that not all Farish products are of a sub-standard design or manufacture.

I don't think you are being unreasonable in wanting locos to run well out of the box
and being angry/disapointed when they don't but i do feel your critisism in some areas may have gone a little too far.
Will be interesting to hear Farish response though........

[swisstony]

I've got a GF class 40, it ran like my old
Nan did, I had to cut through the bogey frame plastics in the centre of each bogey which released the pressure from poor manufacturing, she speeds round now all be it a bit noisily as the gears are a lot looser with this modification!

[longbridge]

The problem is Bachmann don't have any real opposition in the British N gauge market, I believe they know that the other major supplier have problems with their products.

For example Bachmann churned out a load of poor quality N scale products for the American market but the large amount of American modellers refused to buy the stuff, after a while with brands like Atlas, Kato and Lifelike to compete against Bachmann finally lifted their game and produced an acceptable product, in some ways it was to late as the damage had already been done.

I think you did the right thing by sending them an email and believe many others should do the same, Americans wont put up with rubbish so why should the British?.

I tried getting into British N gauge twice and gave the idea away because of poor quality products.

[port perran]

Personally, I believe that Dapol are moving ahead of GF in locomotive quality.
The last 2 that I have bought ( a Hymek and a Class 121 Bubblecar) have both been excellent performers.

[Jack]

I think Roy has it about right.

Yes you've been unlucky but I have to say that I've had not one problem with any of my Farish stock that I brought brand new, 37's, 47's, 101's. Even the second hand HST sets that I have, have given me no problems.

On the other hand when Dapol HST's first came out I had three sets, all ending up going back for refunds. Two smoked, one just stopped, all three within three months. Fortunately enough I had TCS "Goof Proof" DCC chips fitted so I had them replaced FOC. The only other Dapol loco that I've had, a 58, is currently at BR Lines, it stopped dead three days after the 6 month warranty ran out. That doesn't mean that all Dapol locos are bad. Their HST model won MR Model of the Year 2012, others swear by the quality of Dapol loco.

I'd be surprised if Farish respond to you rant in a way you might be hoping for.

As for the bit about Trading Standards - I think Mircosoft would be first in the queue, but you still use a computer which I'm guessing, probably has a Windows Operating system that always need updates to fix something or other. When did Microsoft ever get it right all the time.

[longbridge]

As for the bit about Trading Standards - I think Mircosoft would be first in the queue, but you still use a computer which I'm guessing, probably has a Windows Operating system that always need updates to fix something or other. When did Microsoft ever get it right all the time.

Right on the money Jack thats why I have been using Linux for the past 4 years 

[Newportnobby]

In a cleft stick here, as I agree with you and with Roy. Out of the 60 plus bits of motive power I've collected I've had roughly a 10% failure rate which overall could be considered unacceptable quality control. BUT, this was spread over Dapol, Farish and Peco so I wouldn't consider one manufacture to be to blame. I think your missive contained too much conjecture v fact and would also be interested in your reply if you receive one.
My opinion of Farish is they tend to have better motors/running qualities but don't have the detail of Dapol. However, they are improving in this respect. One look at the EP Blue Pullman will show their progress.
In all my time on the forum, there have only been 2 or 3 moans about the class 44 (one was me) and yes, it appears there may have been a duff batch with sloppy geartrains, but my replacement was no trouble at all.

[Pengi]

I work on the principle one fault is chance  , two faults are coincidence  and three faults are modus operandi  (i.e. three strikes and you are out) on separate occasions. Dapol has two strikes and Bachmann also has two strikes (one is for their customer service). Not good when I have only bought two Dapol products and two Bachmann products and these are not even steamers

So I have a lot of sympathy with you PW and also agree with ORB as I am on the verge of changing all my roadsigns around and going predominantly continental.

I am waiting to get a long term running report on the Desiros from other members of this forum before deciding to buy one - and this will be my approach if I intend to buy anything from Dapol and Farish. The only exception is that I am taking advantage of Rails's price for the Blue Pullman and gambling that the train will be fine.

In contrast, I have a number of new and used Kato trains and locos - zero strikes for the new stock and zero strikes for the used from eBay

Regarding Farish responding to a rant . . . I sent them one reasoned e mail and ended up with an appallingly condescending email and then chose not to reply to my second reasoned email. So it will be interesting to see whether your approach gets the results!

And I moved from PCs to Macs last year and noticed an immediate positive improvement in my stress levels!

[Roy L S]

Personally, I believe that Dapol are moving ahead of GF in locomotive quality.
The last 2 that I have bought ( a Hymek and a Class 121 Bubblecar) have both been excellent performers.

Not sure I agree.

Dapol have lifted their game for sure and there is generally little in it, but for me Farish still has the edge, especially with steam locos and unquestionably in quality of finish.

I have a Dapol A4, it is very nice indeed, with some lovely touches like the speedo and lubricator drives, but in terms of sheer finesse, whisper quiet running and awesome finish the Farish A1 still shades it.

Compare the two manufacturers B1's and perfectly acceptable though the Dapol one is, the Farish one just blows it away....

Diesels, though, much less in it. Dapol ones do still seem a bit suceptible to PCB failures, but as I said previously that has to be taken in the context of the many happy punters out there (And the 67 and 26 in particular are both beauts).

Regards

Roy

[Mustermark]

If I hadn't changed to a Mac, I would be first in line with the class action against Microsoft.  Windows IS the reason I switched.  Not my iPod, not the Apple brand as such, but being SICK of Windows. (Angry thread?)

As far as locos go, I have been pretty happy with all of my Farish and Dapol stuff with a couple of minor issues (a Dapol Voyager that derails, and some older stock that isn't so reliable like my Farish 73 that stutters along.  Biggest problem I had was with a Farish 37 that shorted on its test run and melted its roof.

There has been some fantastic stock of late... the Farish 4CEP, my Farish Blue 47 035, the Farish 108s and Dapol 121s, and my Dapol HST.  Of course, my old Blue 40 is noisy, but still going strong.

Out of all my 60ish bits of traction, I think the failure rate has been OK, with only one major out of the box malfunction.  I do think compared to many I have been lucky.  But I am probably also fairly easily pleased.

I think it is fair to expect Farish to pay attention to unhappy customers, but at the same time it is difficult for them to see the problem as a high failure rate coupled with poor QC (as I think the OP seems to suggest) when Farish will have statistics on how many returns are made and they will see more of the bigger picture.

I also think it is a bit dangerous to assume that a thread bemoaning unreliability out of the box as proof.

I do think it would be helpful for Farish to publish failure rates and perhaps release info on what improvements they have in the pipeline.  That would seem to be good PR.  Dapol seemed to take a lead in that with their new guarantee.  Let's hope Farish respond with some information, and a fix for the poor running 44.

There is no excuse for patronizing replies though.  That would wind me up big time.

[EtchedPixels]

Half of the problem is simple unfortunately. You can have beautifully reliable UK outline models for the small market involved providing you don't mind them doubling the price

Alan

[Jack]

Half of the problem is simple unfortunately. You can have beautifully reliable UK outline models for the small market involved providing you don't mind them doubling the price

Alan

And in some ways the 00 market kinda proves that. N gaugers get half the size of loco for about the same price as a 00 model. Market forces.