Union Mills N gauge locomotives - Still in production - Production list and date

[Portpatrick]

Mad system.  I had forgotten my password. Asked for a reset.  Duly followed the instructions.   Input new password and confirm with the same code.  It then tells me they don't match.  For goodness sake!!!@

I had been trying to reset the password on my phone and getting the non result reported.  I Then tried on the desktop PC.  I did actually reset the password but the virus system regards Bachman Spares as a non secure site.  Hmm!

[pinball]

As much as it is a nice idea for the forum to take it over - if that was possible, let's face it - there would be no "wish list" posts, and the site would be covered with advertising stating "The N-Gauge forum is proud to present the latest Class 117, APT-E and Twins ready to run models" amongst other things. If it was as simple as some cash and talented people, the forum would be churning out models.

[PLD]

I would like to float the idea of forming a company or an association to save the cottage industries that are disappearing due to retirement of the owners.

I would like this to be lead by the younger members of the forum such as acko, steven B, dr Al, exmouth craig, ian arkell, steadfast, njee, embjaybee, etc., to ensure continuity.

The older members would provide finance, help with the admin.

The idea would be to purchase stock and tooling to allow availability of what exists to continue but not to launch new products to compete with RTR or the NGS.

At least one salaried employee would be needed. I would volunteer if I didn't live in France.

For such an endeavour, those involved would need to be able to run a business, to be able to build models, understand toolings, electrics etc.

It doesn't always go well buying somone else's business, Union Mills wasn't a company, it was one person with all the skills, take away that person and what are you left with?

You cannot simply mop up old companies and think it will all be ok, Union Mills might have been sufficient for a one man band, add in several people trying to run it, a salaried (skilled modeller salaried??) for a small market of N gaugers who may turn up their noses when it is no longer Colin running the business and you'll soon be in a mess.

Indeed... Plus of course the vital ingredient for the purchase of an existing business (which is actually the easy part) is an owner wanting/willing to sell, and that appears not to be the case with UM...

That being the case, any futher discussion is rather pointless

[joe cassidy]

I would be interested to know Alan Cox's @EtchedPixels opinion on this subject.

Alan was the man who took over the Ultima coach kits business a few years ago.

[PLD]

I would be interested to know Alan Cox's @EtchedPixels opinion on this subject.

Alan was the man who took over the Ultima coach kits business a few years ago.

Not forgetting that the core of the Ultima business was the prior acquisition of the PC Models printed acetate coach sides by Colin Albright...

In both transactions you had willing sellers, and purchasers with both market knowledge and business acumen, plus a development plan that expanded the business in new directions.
Even then, it didn't reach the volumes and turnover necessary to employ salaried staff as your model envisages under either ownership...

All in all, a much different proposition to a random group of well meaning but naïve individuals trying to take control from someone who doesn't want to sell, with no development plan beyond 'hold station' with the present range...

[emjaybee]

I would like to float the idea of forming a company or an association to save the cottage industries that are disappearing due to retirement of the owners.

I would like this to be lead by the younger members of the forum such as acko, steven B, dr Al, exmouth craig, ian arkell, steadfast, njee, embjaybee, etc., to ensure continuity.

The older members would provide finance, help with the admin.

The idea would be to purchase stock and tooling to allow availability of what exists to continue but not to launch new products to compete with RTR or the NGS.

At least one salaried employee would be needed. I would volunteer if I didn't live in France.

As one of the aforementioned 'bods', frankly, my best response is "yer barking!".

The only hope for retention of previous companies/products is for them to pass down through generations, pass to associates, or be acquired by similar existing companies. Much like Etched Pixels, the NGS, and the like.

In the fast moving age of 3D printing, etc., a lot of these items are going to be easily replicable and produceable by individuals willing to produce and small scale sell on to others. Examples of this practice are already with us on this forum. I mean, even a pretty inexperienced modeller like myself is looking to (hopefully) try some loco building with available items.

[Richard Taylor]

I would be interested to know Alan Cox's @EtchedPixels opinion on this subject.

Alan was the man who took over the Ultima coach kits business a few years ago.

That would be the Alan Cox who is running down Etched Pixels so he can retire, and has given no indication that he intends to sell the business to anyone so that his products can stay in production.  That Alan Cox?

Sorry Joe, but randomly throwing out the names of people that "you'd like to see" (!!) take over a business, with no indication that you've either talked to them beforehand or are prepared to play an active part in making your wish come to fruition,  doesn't add up to a realistic business plan!

Richard

[joe cassidy]

I didn't mention any business plan, I "floated an idea" 

[PLD]

I didn't mention any business plan, I "floated an idea" 

And those of a more realistic and practical outlook have highlighted the many icebergs 

[EtchedPixels]

A few years ago - 12-13 I believe

I would recommend being naiive, otherwise you'll have more sense than to do it.

In general I'd say the bigger problems are the non obvious ones
- The number of people who will run old plastic moulding tooling in the UK is close to zero and they have an age profile that looks like the bingo club
- The number of white metal casters is down to near zero
- I don't know if anyone still offers die casting small scale (I guess someone does because UM had stuff diecast)
- If one or two folks like markits disappears nobody will have any wheels

You also have the legislative ones where some screen printing processes that were used are basically now forbidden (toluene inks), and white metal should have gone the same way already except the EU has been a bit occupied and the UK is up ... yeah

On the bright side some of it is now a lot easier because the technology is truly available to all.

3D print is easy. I've been putting the 3D print stuff up on my github as I sell out - along with some unfinished projects. Once it's out there it's out there forever-ish. Similar things are possible for etches and for stuff lie vinyl (where you just need a vinyl cutter or a friendly digital print house). @emjaybee is bang on here

Older etches are problematic because they may not exist in digital form, but modern stuff is just a file you can send to PPD or someone and magic happens and whilst some of the setup I use is weird and not shareable I can raster the images at 1200dpi which will work fine, or find someone to own the PPD sheets to run whenever needed.

For EP/Ultima my current plans (subject to change) are

- 3D print will go to the github with suitable licensing (generally non commercial but  cc0 for some simpler stuff)
- Etches I will probably render and put somewhere as they sell out. At least for the EP ones where I have the digital artwork. Ultima is more complicated as old stuff is not digital, later stuff is FreeHand 3 (so you'll need a Mac68K emulator and mucho fun but it is doable)
- The turned brass parts will just run out and someone can work out how to 3D print or get new ones turned in bulk
- Wheels were always re-sold from other sources
- White metal is trickier. I need to have some discussions around that but I have a plan. That said a lot of the white metal parts could be redone in etch (and some were in later kits) or 3D print. Dynamos are probably the pain in the arse one there.
- Plastic is waiting me to find the other tools and send them off to see where we go with that, but they are mostly shot and again you can do a better job of roofs in 3D print and include the ventilators or ventilator holes

People get attached to the old but its often a chance to revisit the possibilities. 3D printed bogies are much more civilised than etched ones for most people, and whilst they need 13mm axles it's not a difficult problem to solve. Bodies, roofs, detailing are all often easier done in 3D print as well. Old style screen print can often be digitally printed - although in some cases you lose the depth.

There is hard stuiff - locomotive mechanisms for example.

Even when you use some of the old parts it's often worth a rethink. The last LMS sleeper I built as a test before I decided enough was enough used etched end overlays, 3D printed shell with interior, roof and vent hols, the usual underframe bits and the pre-printed sides from ancient times. Was a hell of a lot easier to build than the old way!

Likewise I suspect it will often be harder to  resurrect many old things than just move to a new process and a better item as you go.

[Roy L S]

So were anyone foolish enough to go down the route of limited batch production in N, it seems the best option is to start from completely from scratch, embrace latest tech and (e.g.) use 3D prints/simple fold up etches as a basis.

Wheelset production would be a challenge as would the mechanics of a simple drive-mechanism and taking all these things into consideration it perhaps begins to be much easier to understand why Colin produced locos the way he did.

He has said sourcing motors in volumes suitable for his scale of operation is one of the reasons he has decided to pack it in, but has anyone asked him where he sourced his wheels/axles/ gears? I am assuming they have not been produced in house although from the pics I have seen, there is a lot of kit in his workshop and I would think him more than capable if it is suitable.

All the above said, even if someone had the time, skills and contacts to source/make what is needed to produce a simple batch produced steam loco there is then the issue of cost. Even if this theoretical producer only factored their time in at a very philanthropic minimum hourly rate, to cover costs, the end-user would I suspect have to pay close to CJM type prices for a simple 0-6-0 tender loco. From comments (even on this forum alone) about what people want to pay it would therefore simply not work - if the expectation were that we would be talking the £80 - £100 range of UM models they would be way off the mark and by logical extension therefore not in the market for one.

Roy

[Portpatrick]

Thank you to "Pixels" and Roy fir your Reflections other realities of production.  I may have retired as an accountant but I can see the tally mounting!
I must look at the BRM article again,  the impression I have being that he moulded driving wheel centres himself.  I may have misunderstood .  We must accept that the Um range is on the used market only.  No doubt the future lies in 3D and resin rather than cast metal.  The downside of that is the need to provide traction by other means,  a combination of interior weighting and tyres.  The latter of course need replacing periodically.  Someone on the FB thread warned  of the eventual failure of mazac casting.  Valid point.  In the 1930s my father scratch built a Clauud Hamilton body,  from a photo,  onto his Hornby O clockwork chassis.  For as  long as I can remember,  ie from the 1960s the mechanism has been unusable because of mazac failure,  notably the wheels.  The oldest of my remaining Poole kettles are nearer 40 years old.  As are at least one white metal body.   It will be interesting to see whether they  and my UM locos last me out!

[Woodenhead]

Given that UM delivered simple robust inside cylindered locomotives, then we already have his replacement in the market.

Sonic models - producer of the 66xx 0-6-2 has indicated his primary interest are such locomotives, his models will also be higher fidelity and DCC ready so will build upon the base Colin had.

Even if someone took over UM, there is going to be a period where no new models exist and then a slow build of models over many years, no different to what Sonic will be doing.  So in reality Colin has bowed out at the exact time a new entrant capable of delivering similar models to his has entered the market - nice timing.

[Roy L S]

I have heard it said that Sam/Sonic is sticking to tank locos for the foreseeable future(anyone who knows more please correct me if wrong) 2 out of the three we already know about are GW, a company which from all accounts Sam has a particular liking for. These will only be sold via Rails of Sheffield.

So, in terms of the everyday tender-locos such as UM have produced (even ones with simple motion) from what I understand Sonic will not be filling the void anytime soon, so dreams of RTR locos like the J36 and D34 "Glen" RTR or even a "new" (and much more mainstream) state of the art J26/J27 seem remote

Roy

[Dorsetmike]

I confirm what Roy says, I emailed Sonic back in October asking if there was any chance of an SR 4-6-0, Sam's reply was that he was concentrating on Tank locos, and from what Roy says I'd not be surprised if he does every GWR tank, should be easy enough, the only differences are number of wheels and either 0-6-0 saddle tanks or prairie side tanks