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Author Topic: faster on dc than dcc  (Read 510 times)

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Offline bluedepot

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faster on dc than dcc
« on: May 18, 2020, 08:05:55 PM »
hi everyone

if a loco runs faster on dc than dcc - is there anything you can do about this to increase the speed on dcc?

on dcc it is ultra slow / unbearably slow, on dc it is slow but not quite so bad...


any ideas?


cheers


tim


 :helpneededsign:


Offline ntpntpntp

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Re: faster on dc than dcc
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2020, 08:38:08 PM »
Might need the vMax CV 5 and/or vMid CV6  increasing    Before you fiddle though, suggest read and make a note of the current values.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 08:39:59 PM by ntpntpntp »
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Offline jpendle

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Re: faster on dc than dcc
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2020, 10:29:32 PM »
Hi,

What kind of decoder is it? A reset might help.

Although I have a couple of Zimo MX622N's which, compared to an MX617N in the same loco, run very slowly, even after a full reset of the decoders.

Regards,

John P
Check out my layout thread.

Contemporary NW (Wigan Wallgate and North Western)

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39501.msg476247#msg476247

Offline Nigel Cliffe

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Re: faster on dc than dcc
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2020, 09:29:35 AM »
Back at basics, there is "what DC" and "what DCC".

Quite a number of DC controllers put out excessive voltages, might easily top out at 18v DC, even though the label says "0-12v". 

Depending what it is, and what power supply is fitted, the DCC system might only be putting out 13v.  Knock off 1.4v for the rectifiers in the decoder, and the maximum is 11.6v.     With some DCC systems (consult manuals, or seek advice) changing the power supply will alter the track voltage. 

At a very basic level, the track voltage determines how fast a loco goes.   However, some decoders do have settings (not CV5 and 6) to modify how the decoder responds to the actual track voltage.  For Zimo this is CV57 - I usually use it to tame warp-speed locos, but it may be useful for increasing speed if needed.   


- Nigel

Offline bluedepot

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Re: faster on dc than dcc
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2020, 06:29:56 PM »
hi everyone

thanks for the replies

it was based on class 56 and 58 locos on dc using a gaugemaster combi and on dcc using an  nce powercab.

can i easily increase my track voltage using the nce powercab?  if yes how?

cheers


tim

Offline Railwaygun

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Re: faster on dc than dcc
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2020, 08:01:54 PM »
What sort of transformer powers your Combi? ( je voltage/ amps output?

My Z21 runs locos more effectively with an 18v transformer, than with 12v - due to conversion losses described. In this thread.

However It does have the ability for me to check and alter the output voltage as well.  cAn the Combi do this?

It may be worth trying a higher output transformer. Or variable voltage PSU.

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Offline jpendle

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Re: faster on dc than dcc
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2020, 08:49:02 PM »
What sort of transformer powers your Combi? ( je voltage/ amps output?

My Z21 runs locos more effectively with an 18v transformer, than with 12v - due to conversion losses described. In this thread.

However It does have the ability for me to check and alter the output voltage as well.  cAn the Combi do this?

It may be worth trying a higher output transformer. Or variable voltage PSU.



Sorry @Railwaygun but this a particular bugbear of mine.

You meant to say that your Z21 runs more effectively with an 18V DC power supply (not a transformer), rather than a 12V one.

@bluedepot I wouldn't try to increase the power supply voltage to your Powercab without trying to find out what it's DCC track voltage is right now.

Also it would be helpful to know what decoders are fitted to the locos in question.

Regards,

John P
Check out my layout thread.

Contemporary NW (Wigan Wallgate and North Western)

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39501.msg476247#msg476247

Offline Nigel Cliffe

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Re: faster on dc than dcc
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2020, 09:25:13 PM »
On the PowerCab,  I'd also recommend reading the manual.  In there it states 10-15v DC, regulated, no more than 3A.    Don't exceed the voltage, don't exceed the max current (ie. a 5A supply may lead to the destruction of the PowerCab, because the PowerCab has somewhat inadequate over-load protection, and in part relies on the power supply cutting out if current is too high.).   "Regulated" means "switched mode power brick", like a laptop, TV or other modern appliance might come with.   The DC output sockets of a typical Gaugemaster controller is NOT regulated.   My suggestion would be "no more than 2.5A" to give a bit of headroom on the PowerCab.     

 - Nigel

Offline Railwaygun

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Re: faster on dc than dcc
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2020, 10:45:33 PM »
What sort of transformer powers your Combi? ( je voltage/ amps output?

My Z21 runs locos more effectively with an 18v transformer/PSU, than with 12v - due to conversion losses described. In this thread.

However It does have the ability for me to check and alter the output voltage as well.  cAn the Combi do this?

It may be worth trying a higher output transformer/PSU. Or variable voltage PSU.



Sorry @Railwaygun but this a particular bugbear of mine.

You meant to say that your Z21 runs more effectively with an 18V DC power supply (not a transformer), rather than a 12V one.

@bluedepot I wouldn't try to increase the power supply voltage to your Powercab without trying to find out what it's DCC track voltage is right now.

Also it would be helpful to know what decoders are fitted to the locos in question.

Regards,

John P

the Z21 loses 4-5v in its internals, so actual track (max ) volts are 13 or so.  do the math(s) for a 12v supply!
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 12:03:07 PM by Railwaygun »
This has been a public service announcement
It may contain alternative facts

Caveat lector

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https://uk.pinterest.com/NDRobotnik/

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Online njee20

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Re: faster on dc than dcc
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2020, 11:07:25 PM »
Eh? He was disputing your incorrect use of the term transformer. Not what you said about an 18v supply working better. “Math” is even more annoying, mind!


Offline Railwaygun

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Re: faster on dc than dcc
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2020, 12:08:55 PM »
On the PowerCab,  I'd also recommend reading the manual.  In there it states 10-15v DC, regulated, no more than 3A.    Don't exceed the voltage, don't exceed the max current (ie. a 5A supply may lead to the destruction of the PowerCab, because the PowerCab has somewhat inadequate over-load protection, and in part relies on the power supply cutting out if current is too high.).   "Regulated" means "switched mode power brick", like a laptop, TV or other modern appliance might come with.   The DC output sockets of a typical Gaugemaster controller is NOT regulated.   My suggestion would be "no more than 2.5A" to give a bit of headroom on the PowerCab.     

 - Nigel

something like this ( max voltage=15v)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Seelion-Universal-Household-Electronic-Smartphone/dp/B07HRK174M/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=15v+psu&qid=1589972647&s=electronics&sr=1-5
This has been a public service announcement
It may contain alternative facts

Caveat lector

The largest Railwaygun, Armoured Train & Military Rail group in the world!
https://groups.io/g/railwaygun/topics

My Military Rail Pinterest area
https://uk.pinterest.com/NDRobotnik/

10mm / N armour Threads
https://www.10mm-wargaming.com/

Motto: Semper ubi, sub ubi

Offline DCCDave

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Re: faster on dc than dcc
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2020, 12:19:28 PM »
Keep any eye on this thread on RMWeb which is relevant too:

NCE Power Cab, slow running

Cheers
Dave

Offline bluedepot

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Re: faster on dc than dcc
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2020, 08:49:10 PM »
wow thanks for all the very helpful replies!

cv57 - just to see what would happen i changed cv57 to the max value on a zimo decoder in a class 56. it didnt change the top speed.

power supply to my nce powercab is currently 12v dc 2a. i am considering buying a 14 or 15v dc 2.5a power supply to see what happens. i will test the track voltage first i think to see if that is of any note. i understand a drop of a few v is common.

the power to the gaugemaater combi was 16v dc i think. it was higher than to the powercab anyway.

would this be ok, or is the one linked to on amazon better?  that one was an adjustable output it said.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142534333801

i dont know anything about electrics btw.

it's only my dapol 52s, 56s, 58s and hall that run slow. other locos run at acceptable top speeds.

thanks again for the replies


tim

Offline jpendle

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Re: faster on dc than dcc
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2020, 09:39:50 PM »
would this be ok, or is the one linked to on amazon better?  that one was an adjustable output it said.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142534333801

Hi,

It would be a lot more useful if it had a UK plug on it.
Also you need to read the specs carefully to make sure that the plug at the DC end is the same size as the plug on the one you are currently using.
With those caveats it's just the job. :)

Regards,

John P
Check out my layout thread.

Contemporary NW (Wigan Wallgate and North Western)

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39501.msg476247#msg476247

Offline jpendle

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Re: faster on dc than dcc
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2020, 09:42:49 PM »

cv57 - just to see what would happen i changed cv57 to the max value on a zimo decoder in a class 56. it didnt change the top speed.


What model Zimo decoder?
As I said before, my locos with MX622N's run considerably slower than the same locos fitted with MX617N's, even though I have checked all the relevant CV's and done a factory reset on them all!

Regards,

John P
Check out my layout thread.

Contemporary NW (Wigan Wallgate and North Western)

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39501.msg476247#msg476247

 

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