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Author Topic: Pre owned - German N gauge  (Read 2314 times)

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Offline ntpntpntp

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Re: Pre owned - German N gauge
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2020, 12:56:15 PM »
And with regards to German fleischmann railcars/DMUs I have looked on eBay and cannot find any, so I'm assuming they are difficult to come by ?

Patience is necessary!!

The UK market for continental models is smaller than the market for British N (and that's small enough), but if you're prepared to extend your range to Europe then there's usually some out there.  The exchange rate isn't so good these days of course, and the price of continental N has risen significantly over the past few years - just at the time you want to jump in  :(   

If you do want to buy from abroad, make sure the seller will ship to UK, and also notice that the average postage from there to here is rather more than it used to be (I think it's an ebay thing rather than the seller being greedy) so quite often you'll find a £6 item with £16-£20 postage which makes it uneconomical. For higher priced items factor in the postage when comparing offerings.


At the moment I'm seeing mostly brand new ICE 2 packs on German ebay.  Here's a pre-owned pack of just the power car and driving trailer, and it's not cheap!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fleischmann-Piccolo-7452-High-Speed-Railcar-Ice-2-DB-Ag-New/352960308019

... and then of course you'd need some intermediate coaches, and the price of those is getting silly in my opinion.  So for example, if I needed to completely replace my ICE 2 set with brand new I'd have to be looking at something like this now:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-tlg-Fleischmann-Piccolo-7452-Ice-2-Railcar-Br-402-6-Intermediate-Car-New/352978589742


Hope this isn't putting you off?  Obviously I think you've made an excellent choice with adopting an interest in Continental models - I changed over in the mid 80s and never looked back   :)  At the moment though prices are rather conspiring against us in the UK.  I buy very little brand new these days.


For German dealers of brand new, I'd certainly recommend DM Toys as a seller I'd trust, and there are others who I've bought from over the years.  The last thing I bought new was via ebay, from Modelbahnshop Stuttgart and that was all fine.  Most of the big dealers have an ebay shop.

Don't totally give up on UK dealers. My "local" model shop in the 90s used to be The Hobby Shop in Faversham when I lived there. Prices were always fair.

[Catching up on your further posts as I write this!]   

My personal experience of the ICE models I have is: 

Fleischmann: very good and reliable, you'll find more of their stuff than the Minitrix equivalent I think (and as a consequence more clapped out second hand models that have been thrashed to death!)

Minitrix: I don't actually have an ICE, but I trust and rate their other models just as much as Fleischmann.

Arnold: the ICE 3 set I bought in 2006 (in Germany actually) had some problems with the mechanism stiffening up over time. Apparently it was a known problem experienced by others.  I eventually replaced the entire mechanism with a Japanese chassis. Hornby/Arnold still offer the ICE 3 set but I don't know if the mechanism has been updated at all.


If you're feeling a bit overwhelmed, maybe reign back a bit and leave the ICE for later?  If it's a multiple unit that's taking your fancy then look at a simple 2 car unit from Fleischmann or Minitrix.   Piko (the modern firm not the old stuff I've mentioned before) also do some rather nice multiple units, and then there are units by Kato and Arnold, and Liliput (part of Bachmann).   

Actually the Arnold ET 420 unit is a favourite of mine, being something I first saw in their catalogues of the mid 70s when British N had absolutely nothing like it.  At exhibitions I still regularly run models that were made in the 70s.  Hornby/Arnold current models have a totally redesigned mechanism compared to the old models.

Please excuse "Tornado", it's on tour in Germany  :D  :D

Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=50050.0

Offline Euston

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Re: Pre owned - German N gauge
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2020, 01:52:26 PM »
Thank you ntpntpntp and globibhan

And ntpntpntp

That's a wealth of information you have provided and most helpful as I am struggling with taking it all in, but you are making things alot easier, much appreciated

And it's not putting me off, just going to have to accept that certain models are a premium, which is ok, if you know what to look for

As I moved to N gauge very recently and recently purchased a lot of farish br blue grey stuff with the intention of doing something with that

But I come across a fleischmann starter shunter set on eBay for a very good price and then with someone I know from the Facebook npourium group doing continental and saying how much cheaper it is compared to farish stuff

And doing some research has got me very interested in continental, especially fleischmann stuff, I'm now planning on selling the farish stuff I have

So you would say minitrix are good and worth buying ?

Also fleischmann do this 2 car desiro class 642 - what sort of price should I pay for a pre-owned version ?

So I should avoid Arnold ice train and buy fleischmann ?

And will look on eBay for minitrix multiple units

And nice pic of the tornado

Offline ntpntpntp

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Re: Pre owned - German N gauge
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2020, 02:35:21 PM »
... someone I know from the Facebook npourium group doing continental and saying how much cheaper it is compared to farish stuff
I'm afraid I wouldn't agree with that at all, the only stuff which is going to be obviously cheaper than Farish is likely to be old rubbish.  That said, bargains do come up from time to time of course.

Quote
So you would say minitrix are good and worth buying ?
Yes certainly.  If you go right back to the 70s then some of the steam locos were not so refined perhaps, but then again still good for their period.   (The British N  Minitrix locos date from that time).   Modern production is lovely, some rate it higher than Fleischmann.

Quote
Also fleischmann do this 2 car desiro class 642 - what sort of price should I pay for a pre-owned version ?

It's been out a while but in my mind I still think of that as one of Fleischmann's newer multiple unit models. There are versions with and without fitted DCC and sound - obviously the latter command a premium.  A friend has a red one. I bought a blue one about a year ago and paid £99 for it. That's the sort of price I would usually consider for a 2-car DC only unit - the typical auctioneer's estimate £80 - £120  but it depends on condition of course.



Quote
So I should avoid Arnold ice train and buy fleischmann ?
The Arnold model is of a different version, the ICE 3.  I wanted one of those because they run in shorter formations (like ICE 2) and thus better suited to my layout's size.  Much as I like the Arnold brand, I would still recommend the Fleischmann ICE 2 for a good reliable model of this general type of train. 

In the old days Arnold was a pioneer of N gauge and made top quality models.  Arguably since buy out by Hornby the current Chinese made models, though still good, don't have the solidness of the old German made models. they seem more in common with  Brawa, Piko, and various other smaller name brands who have their models made out there. Pretty much on a par with current Farish models in that regard.   Doesn't mean they're bad by any means, just not quite as good as the "top flight" brands.

Fleischmann also make the ICE-T (tilting train), another shorter formation than a full ICE 1 set. A friend has one, it seems perfectly fine but of course the tilting mechanism is additional complexity that could cause problems.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 02:39:08 PM by ntpntpntp »
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=50050.0

Offline Euston

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Re: Pre owned - German N gauge
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2020, 03:34:48 PM »
Thanks again ntpntpntp

As I'm starting to understand more about what I should look to buy and not etc

with regards to the ice train, I'm going to go with fleischmann even if I have to be very patient

The class 642 desiro I seen is dcc ready and like new condition but is £165 posted which seems quite expensive for a used model like that ?

I'm definitely going to stick with continental N gauge, I appreciate I have alot to learn, that being said I haven't been this enthusiastic about building a layout before even if I am out of my depth here

so I'm going to stick to buying fleischmann, minitrix and Kato ,
There is a couple of items I'm looking at, can I pm you the details and see what you think ?

Many thanks

Offline Euston

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Re: Pre owned - German N gauge
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2020, 03:47:48 PM »
Ntpntpntp what do you think of these two locos ?


Offline ntpntpntp

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Re: Pre owned - German N gauge
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2020, 04:47:22 PM »
@Euston  Both nice locos, both should run very nicely if in good condition.

I've had a 12X for many years, it's good. I think the only reason it doesn't come out more on my layout is strictly speaking it was a unique prototype/development/test bed loco for other future classes, and as such I don't think it was used much (if at all) on service trains.  But I'm not an expert, it is nice and I really should give it some more hours on the rails  :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DBAG_Class_128


That Re 460 is a Swiss loco, and is a model of which I don't have an example as my layout is primarily German and to be honest the 460 is not a loco I find attractive enough to want  (I know @swisstrains  and @Globibahn will now un-friend me for saying that :D ) I have friends who own them, both by Minitrix and Kato. They've run nicely round my layout in the past.     I do have other Swiss locos though  :)


Bottom line, if the price and condition are good and you like them then why not?
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=50050.0

Offline Globibahn

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Re: Pre owned - German N gauge
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2020, 04:50:23 PM »
to be honest the 460 is not a loco I find attractive enough to want..

Beauty is in the eye of the beer-holder Nick, so I think we will let you off! :laughabovepost:

Offline Hiawatha

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Re: Pre owned - German N gauge
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2020, 04:50:45 PM »
If you think that Continental N-gauge will be cheaper than British then I think you will be disappointed. I find British N-gauge much lower priced – I have only bought a few steam locos from Dapol and Graham Farish and I don’t think one could buy a new, large Continental tender loco comparable to an A4 or Merchant Navy for near the price.  :no: New locos from Fleischmann or Arnold are twice the price, and a steam engine from Minitrix (where they don’t offer a non-sound version) will be 3x the price of a Dapol or Farish. :'(



Regarding the different ICEs, much depends either which design you like better or which region you want to model. E.g. the ICE 1 was also used in Switzerland, while the ICE 3 goes to Brussels and Amsterdam. But you will also see several different ICE types standing next to each other in many locations. So for starters you could buy a Fleischmann ICE 1, an Arnold ICE 3 and a Kato ICE 4 … :)
For design: Some think the ICE 4 front is ugly while the ICE 3 and ICE-T are sleeker looking. :hmmm:


So, you have these ICE choices in N:

ICE/V BR 410: The ICExperimental train from 1985, world speed record in 1988 406.9 km/h
Only made by Minitrix, nos. 12996–98 (complete 5-car train). Awful connectors between the Minitrix cars, best avoided (unless particularly interested in the prototype)


ICE 1 BR 401: top speed in regular service 250 km/h, introduction 1991
Made by Fleischmann and Minitrix. Of the two, the Fleischmann is the better one. Fleischmann also made a version suitable for Switzerland with 4 instead of 2 pantographs. NB: There are three different versions, first with the old DB logo, then with the DB AG logo introduced 1994 (both with an orient red stripe and pastel pink secondary stripe), and then with a traffic red single stripe. Numbers 7440–7449 (Switzerland version: 7450) with double stripe, then 744001–744901 with traffic red stripe.

If you see an ICE 1 from a starter set, be aware that the starter set versions are slightly different, with simplified printing of the front stripe and no flywheel, also the pantographs are not as fine.

The ICE 1 was recently re-released in sets 744002–744502 which are still available new from dealers and would give you a 2+9-car train, although with too many 1st class coaches (4 1st class + 4 2nd class). Could be extended with the older coaches 744101–744901. Maximum train length: 2+14, no double formations.

One criticism of both ICE 1 models is that both Fleischmann and Minitrix have the wind deflectors on the coach ends which were removed very quickly on the prototype. In direct comparison to the ICE 2 the ICE 1 therefore looks more close-coupled and aerodynamic than it should be. I personally think it looks better with the wind deflectors even though they are not correct for the models with the newer DB logo.


ICE 2 BR 402: 250 km/h, 1996
Only made by Fleischmann. Very similar to ICE 1, but only one power car and a driving trailer coach. Fixed formation: 1+7 cars. Two ICE 2 can be combined.
Again, versions with double (7452–7458) and single stripe (7490–7496) exist but have different article numbers.


ICE-T (tilting train) BR 411: 230 km/h, 2000
Only made by Fleischmann, 7460–7465 and 740601/746101/746401.
Also as ÖBB version 7760–7765. Fixed formation: 7 cars.


ICE 3 BR 403 (single-current)/BR 406 (multi-current): 300 km/h, 2000
Made by Minitrix and Arnold. Minitrix model is a low-budget version without lights. Both Arnold and Minitrix have no interior (with dark tinted windows). Fixed formation: 8 cars, two ICE 3 can be combined.
BR 403: First Arnold version was a 4-car set 0200 plus 4 single cars 3930–3933. The set is easily found but the add-on cars are rare and expensive, especially the dining car 3932. Later re-releases HN2063, HN2121 and most recently HN2416 under Hornby came as complete 8-car sets.
BR 406: 8-car sets HN2077 (DB), HN2417 (NS)


ICE 4 BR 412: 250 km/h, 2017
Kato (not Hobbytrain) K10950 (7 cars)+K10951 (5 cars). The printing of the Kato ICE 4 has been criticized because it is very basic and small lettering is absent.
Although there will be a 7-car version of the ICE 4, the cars included in the Kato base set do not form the correct formation for a 7-car DB train.
Peter

Offline Globibahn

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Re: Pre owned - German N gauge
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2020, 04:53:52 PM »
Don't forget also that you may take a viewpoint on metal bodies (Minitrix) vs. plastic bodies (Fleischman).

I prefer the more finely detailed plastic bodies myself as I know I will be handling them gently. At least in theory!

Or you could just not worry and have both.

Offline ntpntpntp

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Re: Pre owned - German N gauge
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2020, 04:59:58 PM »
@Hiawatha   Oh yeah, I forgot about the Minitrix ICE 3.     I have the Superman version  :D
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=50050.0

Offline Hiawatha

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Re: Pre owned - German N gauge
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2020, 05:02:02 PM »
@Euston  Both nice locos, both should run very nicely if in good condition.

I've had a 12X for many years, it's good. I think the only reason it doesn't come out more on my layout is strictly speaking it was a unique prototype/development/test bed loco for other future classes, and as such I don't think it was used much (if at all) on service trains.  But I'm not an expert, it is nice and I really should give it some more hours on the rails  :)

The interesting thing about the 12X model is that Fleischmann and Minitrix cooperated here. They both use the same mould for the body but used their own mechanisms. Not that the 12X was sold any cheaper than a completely self-developed model … :doh:
I think the Fleischmann model was judged as the better running of the two. :hmmm:



Regarding plastic or metal bodies. Many newer Minitrix releases are criticized for their coarse metal bodies. Many older Minitrix models do also have plastic bodies but there are also complaints that some Minitrix plastic bodyshells from the mid-90s are very brittle and prone to cracking.
Peter

Offline Euston

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Re: Pre owned - German N gauge
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2020, 05:08:41 PM »
Thanks for the information from everyone

So is the class 642 desiro over priced at £165 ?

And regarding the ice train I'm even more confused by it now lol

I'm going to leave the other two locos I posted pics of, I'm not very confident with them now

This continental stuff is really over complicated to me


**Edit - is the pic of the ice minitrix good ?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 05:10:50 PM by Euston »

Offline ntpntpntp

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Re: Pre owned - German N gauge
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2020, 05:28:57 PM »
So is the class 642 desiro over priced at £165 ?

My gut reaction is it's a bit pricey for a standard DC model.   On the other hand, can you find a brand new one in  the UK?

For a comparison, this one in Germany is around £136 (plus a fair bit of postage of course) and is supposedly in good condition apart from a broken roof aerial.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fleischmann-Spur-N-7420-K-Dieseltriebzug-Desiro-BR-642-der-DB/164121483021?hash=item263667170d:g:LX0AAOSwv-5eai30

Worth is so subjective of course. For someone really wanting one to build on their layout's theme it may be worth £165 to them.  For someone like myself who thinks "Yeah nice, but I've got a blue one and my friend has a red one for when we need one at shows"  then it's not worth so much.

Believe me I've certainly paid over-the-odds for a particular model that I've been after. Case in point: a Brawa loco came up on ebay Germany a few weeks ago that I've been wanting for years (missed them when they came out and they are now very very hard to find).  So I ended up paying twice the price of a similar type of model I already own, but it's the particular livery which is so rare.  I'm happy  :D


Quote
This continental stuff is really over complicated to me

That's because there is such a wide range available, so many more manufacturers offering lovely stuff compared to the main players in British N.  You don't know which way to jump!   

Perhaps before you go off and buy all sorts of stuff,  maybe try and focus your thoughts a bit more on what you want to model on your layout?  Modern day or older? Freight or passenger? Station, freight yard, or "just watch trains go by" type of layout?   What sort of size layout can influence your stock choices, eg. a full ICE 1 needs a lot of length, and just running the power cars and one coach just looks wrong (though there are prototypical movements like that between depots if you watch lots of youtube videos!)
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=50050.0

Offline ntpntpntp

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Re: Pre owned - German N gauge
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2020, 05:33:02 PM »
**Edit - is the pic of the ice minitrix good ?

Ah, that one has the awful couplings that myself (I think) and @Hiawatha  (certainly) mentioned.  They were very troublesome.    I once had a friend ask me to look at one of those sets for him. I didn't like those couplings at all!
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!
https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=50050.0

Offline Euston

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Re: Pre owned - German N gauge
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2020, 10:05:59 AM »
Hi everyone

Would this ice 2 be ok ?

It's fleischmann and is new split from a train set

And is £150

Please let me know your thoughts

Many thanks

 

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