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Author Topic: Roco z21 white loco programming help  (Read 790 times)

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Offline jpendle

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Re: Roco z21 white loco programming help
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2020, 07:22:01 PM »
but seriously John
As my layout is in a different room, linked with my terrible memory, it will take me a while to answer you.

Absolutely not a problem.

I suspect we may be getting to 'shotgunning' this issue but I'd rather not do that except as a last resort.  ;)

John P
Check out my layout thread.

Contemporary NW (Wigan Wallgate and North Western)

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39501.msg476247#msg476247

Offline jpendle

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Re: Roco z21 white loco programming help
« Reply #31 on: April 05, 2020, 07:26:20 PM »

Looking at the z21 app on my phone the only way to talk to a loco with the z21 is to use POM (Program on Main) and this seems to require that you know the loco address.


Are you sure they've done that ?  It would be a downgrade on the spec sheet for the z21.  That says the z21 can program read/write, though it needs its track output wiring to a short piece of programming track, not the whole layout.   
It is a long time since I used the Apple App version, but I'm sure there used to be access to programming on prog-track as well as "on the main".  Access was from the App start screen.   

My Apple device is now an unsupported antique, so digging it out and trying to get the battery back into life won't really help as its so old it won't take newer apps. 


- Nigel

Hi Nigel,

I don't have a z21 so I don't really know, I've got the Z21. I'm just inferring this from the way the (old)app works, and without being in front of the OP's setup it's hard to say.
Although, given that the light turns green when programming/reading CV's, it does imply that it turns the 'main' output into a programming track output, specially if the OP is able to read back settings from his Deltic loco.

Regards,

John P
Check out my layout thread.

Contemporary NW (Wigan Wallgate and North Western)

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39501.msg476247#msg476247

Offline Nigel Cliffe

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Re: Roco z21 white loco programming help
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2020, 09:43:57 AM »

Hi Nigel,

I don't have a z21 so I don't really know, I've got the Z21. I'm just inferring this from the way the (old)app works, and without being in front of the OP's setup it's hard to say.
Although, given that the light turns green when programming/reading CV's, it does imply that it turns the 'main' output into a programming track output, specially if the OP is able to read back settings from his Deltic loco.

Regards,

John P

This manual, from Roco's current z21/Z21 website shows the z21 (white) connections

https://www.z21.eu/media/Kwc_Basic_DownloadTag_Component/root-en-main_47-661-310-665-314-downloadTag-download/default/8b66a32b/1536565785/z21-white-en.pdf

Second page shows fitting a change-over switch (or disconnect/reconnect) to a programming track. 

The main website spec sheet for the z21 says it can "read and write to programming track".   The diagram above refers to the NMRA DCC spec S-9.2.3, which is "service mode programming", so that's normal read/write of decoders in programming mode if the programming track is correctly connected.


If Simontstk has a second green two-pin plug to allow quick swap of "layout" to "programming track" that would save having to disconnect wires.   Or a double pole change over switch, as indicated in the diagram. 


John, good luck with trying to help,  as I said my Apple device is so geriatric that its of no value, and I don't have a Z21/z21 available either.


- Nigel

Offline simontkstk

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Re: Roco z21 white loco programming help
« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2020, 02:14:17 PM »
Right :- sorry about the delay
Start from scratch
plug in router and z21
connect my track
z21 has solid blue light
put my DCC Freightliner on the track
under loco address has READ highlighted
under programming track only has READ highlighted when I input a CV number
I input "1"  then press READ
the light turns green
the screen turns black and says "Wait for answer of z21"
After about 40 seconds the screen returns to the programming menu
the light remain green

yipee done ! lol

Offline simontkstk

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Re: Roco z21 white loco programming help
« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2020, 02:46:49 PM »
however if I put my Deltic on the track it moves when I press READ
and says
"Programming
CV:1  - Value:7"

Offline jpendle

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Re: Roco z21 white loco programming help
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2020, 02:56:30 PM »
however if I put my Deltic on the track it moves when I press READ
and says
"Programming
CV:1  - Value:7"

Hi Simon,

So its good news and bad news I'm afraid.

Your z21 is able to program a loco directly without knowing its address, just remember that yu can only have one loco on the track at a time when you are doing that.

Your Deltic is set to address 7.

The bad news is that the Freightliner loco needs sorted. I get the impression that these locos haven't been used in a while, so it may just be that you need to give the wheels on the Freightliner loco a good clean.

I would check your other two locos and read back their addresses now that we know that it works.

To get the lights working, you need to add the loco to the app using "Settings", "Railed Vehicles", and then you can use the "Modify Functions" button to enable F0, which should control the lights.

Regards,

John P
Check out my layout thread.

Contemporary NW (Wigan Wallgate and North Western)

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39501.msg476247#msg476247

Offline Railwaygun

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Re: Roco z21 white loco programming help
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2020, 04:00:27 PM »
the programming track should be scrupulously clean as well.

its normal to get a little movement when a loco is being programmed.
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Offline simontkstk

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Re: Roco z21 white loco programming help
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2020, 09:21:27 AM »
Railwaygun :-
It is all clean wheels aswell
It is strange how it recognizes the Deltic but nothing else ?????
 

Online njee20

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Re: Roco z21 white loco programming help
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2020, 09:27:25 AM »
That strongly suggests the problem is not with the z21, but the other locos. If you're convinced the decoder is present and is ok (the right way up, not blown) then it must be a connectivity issue.

Offline jpendle

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Re: Roco z21 white loco programming help
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2020, 03:27:03 PM »
That strongly suggests the problem is not with the z21, but the other locos. If you're convinced the decoder is present and is ok (the right way up, not blown) then it must be a connectivity issue.

But the OP says that the z21 works fine on his OO layout.

Simon, in order to get lights or sound working on your locos you need to add them to the loco roster in the z21 app, in the same way that you can't make them move without adding them to the roster.

For the Freightliner loco, are you able to remove the body to check that a decoder is fitted?
Also can you tell us is it Dapol or Farish and what class of loco it is?

Thanks,

John P
Check out my layout thread.

Contemporary NW (Wigan Wallgate and North Western)

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39501.msg476247#msg476247

Offline husafreak

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Re: Roco z21 white loco programming help
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2020, 06:19:46 PM »
My only  advice comes from my learning DCC programing with my NCE PowerCab, but I think it is worthwhile. You must go slowly and methodically. If there is a tutorial for recovering and or setting up a new train follow it step by step. When the train moves slightly it is acknowledging your input, without that it may not have been programmed. I can't tell you how confused I became a few times. But going back to square 1 with a factory reset has always got my trains going again when I thought all hope was lost.
As an aside I would like very much to purchase a Roco z21 or Z21. Here in the US the z21 can be had for about $175, that is very inexpensive! A Z21 is over $400. Comparing the two I find it hard to justify the Z21, but perhaps there is more to it than that! Would you all say the Z21 is more "user friendly" when programming loco's? Something like that doesn't really show up on a specification chart but could be a great help down the road. Would you say the z21 is more suited to a simple 1 loco layout and the Z21 more suited to a complex layout with switching yards and multiple locos?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2020, 06:21:41 PM by husafreak »

Offline jpendle

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Re: Roco z21 white loco programming help
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2020, 08:27:28 PM »
The biggest difference between the z21 and Z21 is that the Z21 has a separate programming track output.

So on the z21, you'll need to connect a separate programming track via a switch to easily program locos, or you can use POM.

The Z21 also has more interfaces like Can Bus, and Loconet, so depending on your needs may be a better choice. I bought the Z21 because I didn't want to run into any limitations as I developed my DCC layout.

Regards,

John P
Check out my layout thread.

Contemporary NW (Wigan Wallgate and North Western)

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39501.msg476247#msg476247

Offline husafreak

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Re: Roco z21 white loco programming help
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2020, 07:00:10 PM »
Thanks for that. I think the z21 would be fine for a simple home layout then. The Z21 for complicated layouts or show layouts that combine with others. On my NCE the program track can read CV's but POM cannot. Can I read CV's on the z21 when using the separate program track? I think someone said here it was possible.
One thing I don't understand about program tracks is how they are configured. Say I add an isolated "program track" to my yard. Do I still have to physically place the loco to be programmed on it? Or do I drive the loco onto it and then somehow switch to program track and isolate that loco for program without affecting the others?

Offline jpendle

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Re: Roco z21 white loco programming help
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2020, 07:50:12 PM »
Hi @husafreak ,

We are hijacking the OP's thread here so maybe time to start your own.

But to answer your questions.

The z21(White) doesn't NEED a separate programming track, BUT if you try to do anything other than POM, the you can only have one loco on your layout while you are doing the programming, otherwise you might end up programming all your locos at the same time.

So on the z21 it is best to have either a separate piece of track wired up to a suitable connector and plug that into the z21 instead of you main layout, or to have an isolated piece of track on your main layout with a switch of some kind so that your layout id 'off' when you are programming locos. You will either need to arrange things so that you can drive your loco onto the programming track section, or pick then up off the layout and put hem on the programming track.

With the Z21 the programming track output acts in parallel with the main track output as long as you are not doing any programming (blue light on the Z21). This means that with the Z21 you can just isolate a section of track on your layout and connect it to the Z21 programming output, you can then drive locos and trains across the programming track in normal operation without any issues. You can also drive a loco onto the programming track and then program it, when you do this the Z21 light turns green and just the programming track is live, once you are done you go back to normal operations (blue light) and drive the loco away.

Hope that makes sense.

Regards,

John P
Check out my layout thread.

Contemporary NW (Wigan Wallgate and North Western)

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39501.msg476247#msg476247

Offline Railwaygun

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Re: Roco z21 white loco programming help
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2020, 10:34:46 PM »
Roco are now advertising a z21 Start set, using a Multimaus controller, and the z21 with router pack. both are part of start sets, so worth looking at Ebay.de & the major De suppliers for bargains ( split, or complete).

https://www.z21.eu/en/z21-system/the-models#10-2318
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