Hatton's Beyer-Garratt

[emjaybee]

I think the fact that a lot of enthusiasts saving money to go to a once a year show are spending money at one event doesn't really indicate the financial health of the country.

No, not of the country necessarily but it does probably say something about the demographic of railway modellers of whom a significant proportion have a higher than average disposable income.

Roy

No, it says something about the small proportion of railway modellers who actually went to the show. A small proportion of which are N gauge modellers.

Sorry, I respectfully disagree. Warley is attended by many thousands which would be a good sample size to start with.

Amongst those that are railway modellers in a proportionate sense it is pretty likely to be a fairly decent representation of railway modelling as a whole in terms of demographic, affluence, scales modelled etc.

Yes, it's well attended. But it's still only a relatively small proportion of those who are involved in the hobby.

[exmouthcraig]

I'm glad I'm not retired and still have 35years left in work.

Theres no way I could afford this thing on my pension!!

I dont think its economy based decisions, plenty of other manufacturers are shifting stock.

Simple answer it's a    choice of a locomotive by a company that should know better and theres not many people wanting one. Yes theres 20 on here telling us they want it but that dont get it sold so I think @Newportnobby has some sense in his statement.

Maybe Hattons genuinely believed that Bachmann would back down and let them stay as a box shifter for them, stubbornness and arrogance obviously didn't win that war so in a flamboyant attempt to prove they didn't care they picked a ludicrously left field locomotive to try to show they were that confident it would have people queueing round The Wirral to obtain one and they knew exactly what they were doing.

Has the potential to turn in to a great big expensive slap in the face!!!

[Snowwolflair]

Is this still the Hatton's Beyer-Garratt thread or does it need moved?

[Steven B]

A well engineered Beyer-Garratt could quite happily manage with one motor driving three axles; Those who believe it can't should look at Union Mills - I've seen one UM 0-6-0 haul a 70 coach train without slipping.

If/when it gets produced I'm sure it will sell. Hattons need to help themselves by promoting it. To have nothing at all on show at Warley was a poor choice.

I think the bigger problem is that a large proportion of steam era modellers aren't keen to order a model up-front without seeing it first. Revolution couldn't get the numbers for the class 21/29 (and struggled initially with the Class-B tanks).

KR Models has withdrawn the GT3 from N Gauge due to lack of interest.

DJ Models struggled to get enough pre-orders for the King to make that a go-er. Even with the "problems" associated with that company, is King is a poor choice of model?

A King, Garratt, GT3 and class 21/29 would all sell for Bachmann or Dapol, so why not Hattons, Revolution, KR-Models etc?




Steven B.

[Dr Al]

DJ Models struggled to get enough pre-orders for the King to make that a go-er. Even with the "problems" associated with that company, is King is a poor choice of model?

No. But we've already had a King in N (Farish) so some will have one and not be desperate to update. Others probably had grave concerns with the company itself by the time the King was proposed.

My personal gripe with the DJM model was the hideous mechanical design proposed - that had me running for the hills immediately.

A well engineered Beyer-Garratt could quite happily manage with one motor driving three axles; Those who believe it can't should look at Union Mills - I've seen one UM 0-6-0 haul a 70 coach train without slipping.

This is fair but possibly not analogous. The UMs do not have complex valve gear, have very slack tolerances in the tender drive, and very low detail as compared other manufacturers. If Hattons went that route they'd be slammed for a crude model with traction tyres, so they couldn't win - it's tyres that make the UM models - early ones (circa 1996) had no tyres and equivalently little haulage capacity.

Cheers,
Alan

[railsquid]

A King, Garratt, GT3 and class 21/29 would all sell for Bachmann or Dapol, so why not Hattons, Revolution, KR-Models etc?

In that case why have Bachmann or Dapol never produced any of those models?

[Dr Al]

In that case why have Bachmann or Dapol never produced any of those models?

Farish made a King in ~1996.

Cheers,
Alan

[Snowwolflair]

In that case why have Bachmann or Dapol never produced any of those models?

Farish made a King in ~1996.

Cheers,
Alan

And Foxhunter did a very good white metal kit with brass fittings.

[Thorpe Parva]

A well engineered Beyer-Garratt could quite happily manage with one motor driving three axles; Those who believe it can't should look at Union Mills - I've seen one UM 0-6-0 haul a 70 coach train without slipping.

If/when it gets produced I'm sure it will sell. Hattons need to help themselves by promoting it. To have nothing at all on show at Warley was a poor choice.

I think the bigger problem is that a large proportion of steam era modellers aren't keen to order a model up-front without seeing it first. Revolution couldn't get the numbers for the class 21/29 (and struggled initially with the Class-B tanks).

KR Models has withdrawn the GT3 from N Gauge due to lack of interest.

DJ Models struggled to get enough pre-orders for the King to make that a go-er. Even with the "problems" associated with that company, is King is a poor choice of model?

A King, Garratt, GT3 and class 21/29 would all sell for Bachmann or Dapol, so why not Hattons, Revolution, KR-Models etc?




Steven B.

I agree with the final sentence & would Class 28 to the list. The problem is that crowdfunders need costs to be covered upfront whereas the likes of Dapol & Farish can afford the development costs as long as they think that initial sales will cover these costs; their ability to hold stock and having a large retailer base makes their business model different from say KRM. Hattons appear to fall somewhere between both business models.

[railsquid]

In that case why have Bachmann or Dapol never produced any of those models?

Farish made a King in ~1996.

But not Bachmann-era Farish. Who have released updated versions of many Poole-era models, but the poster I was quoting seemed to be certain that if they did a King as well it would sell, so I'm wondering why they haven't.

(For the record I'd probably sign up for a Hattons King or a Revolution King sight-unseen, were they so minded, or buy a Bachmann-Farish/Dapol version should one ever appear. And did put my name down for a Revolution 21/29. )

[Snowwolflair]

In that case why have Bachmann or Dapol never produced any of those models?

Farish made a King in ~1996.

But not Bachmann-era Farish. Who have released updated versions of many Poole-era models, but the poster I was quoting seemed to be certain that if they did a King as well it would sell, so I'm wondering why they haven't.

(For the record I'd probably sign up for a Hattons King or a Revolution King sight-unseen, were they so minded, or buy a Bachmann-Farish/Dapol version should one ever appear. And did put my name down for a Revolution 21/29. )

Given the models of the same era Hall, Black five, castle and 8F got the upgrade treatment it is almost certain that DJs offering queered their pitch.  The question is whether they will now revisit the King.

[Shiney Sheff]

A personal observation Re the Farish King.

I have noticed on more than one occasion, when they seldom appear on a certain auction site, they never make much money, which to me says it's model not many people want. I'm sure all manufactures keep their eyes on things and perhaps have all come to the same conclusion, not that many people want one so it's not worth re-doing.

Like I said, just my personal opinion

Bob

[Roy L S]

A personal observation Re the Farish King.

I have noticed on more than one occasion, when they seldom appear on a certain auction site, they never make much money, which to me says it's model not many people want. I'm sure all manufactures keep their eyes on things and perhaps have all come to the same conclusion, not that many people want one so it's not worth re-doing.

Like I said, just my personal opinion

Bob

I don't think it was actually a very good model, coming as it did right at the end of the Poole era, it essentially rehashed a Castle chassis and tender with a new body casting and front bogie, an object lesson in doing something on the cheap.

Roy

[Snowwolflair]

A personal observation Re the Farish King.

I have noticed on more than one occasion, when they seldom appear on a certain auction site, they never make much money, which to me says it's model not many people want. I'm sure all manufactures keep their eyes on things and perhaps have all come to the same conclusion, not that many people want one so it's not worth re-doing.

Like I said, just my personal opinion

Bob

I don't think it was actually a very good model, coming as it did right at the end of the Poole era, it essentially rehashed a Castle chassis and tender with a new body casting and front bogie, an object lesson in doing something on the cheap.

Roy

I would fully agree with this.   A bit of a mule neither horse or Donkey.

I have several complete and incomplete Foxhunter kits that were going on ebay subject to the DJ model that will now be built. probably using Castle chassis.

[icairns]

I model the north-east of England (somewhere around the Newcastle / Darlington / York areas) during the steam-diesel transition area.

I had previously discounted buying a Hatton's Garratt for several reasons:

(1)   I never saw one in real life.

(2)   It is a pretty large loco for my 8' x 2'-3" double track continuous run layout.

(3)   It is quite an investment.

(4)   It does not fit in with the geographical area of my layout. 

However, I may now have to reconsider.  I was reading Booklaw's Steam Memories no. 28 North Eastern Sheds and, lo and behold, there is a picture on page 71 of two Beyer-Garratts on shed at York.

The caption reads:

"The LMS Garratts had been visiting York for many years, usually bringing iron-ore from the East Midlands for the blast furnaces of Teesside.  On Saturday 16th July 1955, two of the class, Nos. 47971 of Toton, and 47982 from Hasland, had settled down for the weekend prior to working back home with empties on Monday."

I have many books about the North-Eastern Region in the 1950s and 1960s but I do not ever remember seeing a photo of the Garratts at York before. 

So, if I was to order a Garratt, maybe I would only need to invoke Rule 0.5 instead of Rule 1.0.

Does anybody else have information on the Garratts on North-Eastern metals?

Ian Cairns
Los Angeles