Less than impressive Warwell kit.

[emjaybee]

I'm going to put the current kit to one side and build my other one from a different start point.


mike : sounds good advice. my late Gran said : " if its becoming tedious leave alone and start again another time when fresher and you can think again ".

Hi all,

Well - certainly brings out the modellers!

When it was introduced the Parkwood kit was more or less 'state of the art' when it came to small run injection moulded models.

Now - it's a barely acceptable model that needs a lot of work to build and make look good.

To me - that just means it's become a challenge to do - and I'm all up for a challenge.

Photos will be appearing shortly showing the ones I have built - still sorting loads for them.

Bogies are still an issue as the pivot point and pin that the kit has are a different size to the NGS bogie pivot hole.

I originally did mine with the Microtrains bogies but have since upgraded them to take NGS bogies. - Y25 and/or GP225 depending on period you model.

Thanks
Phil H

Phil,

I'm not sure I'd go as far as 'barely acceptable', it's ok'ish, but knowing the background means you can approach assembly in a different manner.

Knowing that the original kit was produced without bogies, and that the NGS bogies are an 'add-on' so to speak I would have dry assembled the deck/bogie pivot/bogie to assess the fit.

It's just been frustrating to go from an accurately moulded van kit, which had easily identifiable and solveable flash, positive location, and accurate instructions to a kit where it's hard to distinguish the flash from the mould edge, there's no accurate location and the instructions could be better.

I appreciate the challenge, but there's still an awful lot of railway modellers who are, probably by their own admission, beginners. These people may well be the future members or new members of the NGS who may well have been enticed to join by the large selection of kits available. Some guidance on the website about the evolution of the kits, the pitfalls, and the difficulty could be helpful and prevent people walking away from the NGS.

My suspicion is that the kit catalogue has evolved over the years in the prescence of experienced modellers who had some knowledge of the history of each kit and no-one has thought about the newer/less experienced modellers that are now coming to these models. Prior to the NGS, it's possible that people are only used to Airfix/Revell/Hasagawa kits which are always sharp, accurate and well explained. That's not a criticism, it's just the way things evolve over the years.

[Mr Sprue]

For what its worth the plates that mould these kits can date well back to the seventies and to reduce cost most were probably cut using a pantogragh mill.

I've seen at first hand a lot of plates that Barry and Jean Parks (Cambrian Models) produced when I visited Graham Taylor a while back who now owns all their tooling, its very dated but still works!

Pretty much are all brass cavity plates bolstered with steel supports, and over the years have been subjected to a lot of use and suffered a little wear and tear, so a little flash is to be expected.

Large companies such as the likes of Airfix / Revell for more accuracy would have had their cavities sparked (EDM) in steel then hardened as the tool would be expected to produce vast outputs and cost considerably more unlike the tools made by Cambrian and Parkside which were cut in brass.

As already mentioned these kits are after all "Scratch Aids" and do require a certain amount of skill level to assemble them and are far more easier to build than that of etched brass or white metal kits.

[emjaybee]

For what its worth the plates that mould these kits can date well back to the seventies and to reduce cost most were probably cut using a pantogragh mill.

I've seen at first hand a lot of plates that Barry and Jean Parks (Cambrian Models) produced when I visited Graham Taylor a while back who now owns all their tooling, its very dated but still works!

Pretty much are all brass cavity plates bolstered with steel supports, and over the years have been subjected to a lot of use and suffered a little wear and tear, so a little flash is to be expected.

Large companies such as the likes of Airfix / Revell for more accuracy would have had their cavities sparked (EDM) in steel then hardened as the tool would be expected to produce vast outputs and cost considerably more unlike the tools made by Cambrian and Parkside which were cut in brass.

As already mentioned these kits are after all "Scratch Aids" and do require a certain amount of skill level to assemble them and are far more easier to build than that of etched brass or white metal kits.

Thanks for the background on the kits, and indeed on the differences between production 'size' mould technology.

Again, you mention you consider them to be 'scratch building' aids. Again, if this was mentioned in the description on the NGS website members would be better prepared for the challenge in front of themselves.

Maybe it would be beneficial for those who 'know' the kits to update the description on the website to better inform people of what to expect.

I started this thread, originally, to vent a bit of frustration and try to find how others had tackled this 'kit', and it's turned into a very informative thread which has possibly highlighted some improvements that could be introduced on the NGS shop website.

Thanks for all the input...

...so far!

[rhysapthomas]

These are my efforts at Warwells finished a couple of weeks ago.

I must agree with the original thread that the sides did need a lot of cleaning up and where difficult to position when glueing I had to hold mine for ages while the initial glue set and then flood more glue into the bottom.  I suppose the beginner class simple means they don't have many parts

The mistake i made was to glue the rather crude brake wheel in position before painting and then it was impossible to paint in the end i replaced them with etched brass parts which looked much better

How do they run?  I have not run them yet but they seem very light even with loads and stiff do they need any weight added?

I do like the little tanks though

[xm607]

Going back to the beginning which vans did you make first?

[Mr Sprue]

Again, you mention you consider them to be 'scratch building' aids. Again, if this was mentioned in the description on the NGS website members would be better prepared for the challenge in front of themselves.

Maybe it would be beneficial for those who 'know' the kits to update the description on the website to better inform people of what to expect.

"Scratch aids" normally have things missing where upon the modeler has to improvise e.g to fill a hole where a roof would curve down to a join an end, etched brass kits are renowned for this headache!

Concerning NGS kits they are pretty much complete and yes if there are parts to be sourced elsewhere then yes in that scenario I completely agree the word "Scratch aid" should be mentioned.   

But to be fair NGS do mention in their listings whether the kit is easily assembled or will prove to be a challenge!   

[emjaybee]

Again, you mention you consider them to be 'scratch building' aids. Again, if this was mentioned in the description on the NGS website members would be better prepared for the challenge in front of themselves.

Maybe it would be beneficial for those who 'know' the kits to update the description on the website to better inform people of what to expect.

"Scratch aids" normally have things missing where upon the modeler has to improvise e.g to fill a hole where a roof would curve down to a join an end, etched brass kits are renowned for this headache!

Concerning NGS kits they are pretty much complete and yes if there are parts to be sourced elsewhere then yes in that scenario I completely agree the word "Scratch aid" should be mentioned.   

But to be fair NGS do mention in their listings whether the kit is easily assembled or will prove to be a challenge!

To be fair, they don't mention that at all.

The info on the Warwell kit says:

"Ex Parkwood Models kit representing type used from WW2 to mid 1970s. Supplied with diamond frame bogies." On the main NGS website,

and

"Kit 50a. WD Warwell (NGSK0500)

(Eras 3-7)

Decals are not included in this kit, but are available under 'NGS Decals', item NGST0500 (click to go to page)." On the NGS shop website.

So I think some improvements in the descriptions of the kits could be made.

[emjaybee]

Going back to the beginning which vans did you make first?

I did some M.R. open frame vans and the LMS twin pack, have a look here.

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=45562.msg572914#msg572914

These are my efforts at Warwells finished a couple of weeks ago.

I must agree with the original thread that the sides did need a lot of cleaning up and where difficult to position when glueing I had to hold mine for ages while the initial glue set and then flood more glue into the bottom.  I suppose the beginner class simple means they don't have many parts

The mistake i made was to glue the rather crude brake wheel in position before painting and then it was impossible to paint in the end i replaced them with etched brass parts which looked much better

How do they run?  I have not run them yet but they seem very light even with loads and stiff do they need any weight added?

I do like the little tanks though

Nice job!!!

What did you use, or did you need to shim the bogies to stop them rubbing on the underframe?

Also, where did you get the etched handwheel from?

And, while I've still got your attention, what colour and type of paint, that looks quite effective?

[rhysapthomas]

Thanks you

The brake wheels some spares from an NGS kit and  51L CWSBD Brass Gauge Dial (Pk9) from Peterspares bought via ebay as the postage was cheaper for the same item £3 total

I did fit a thin fibre washer which i found a few in my box of computer screws they were insulated washer about 0.8mm thick i had to open up the centre abit.  I have to say i still have not run them on a layout

The paint was Tamiya Olive Green with NATO Black for the vehicles.  The decals are really fiddly but at least plenty came with the kit

[xm607]

The LMS Twins were tooled by Parkside as were the Vanwide, BR Std vans and LNER Vans amonst others for Parkwood, the Warflat Warwell were done by Cambrian, also with others. If these are now regarded as Scratch aids (can't see how as you get a complete wagon body with out resorting to sheet plastic or brass) the NGS Gresley full brake must be one due to the bogies. They require end transoms to stop the wheel sets from dropping out at the slightest provocation, and yes I have built 5 of these including one shortened to make a Great Eastern version.
In the beginning with the Warflat Warwell, we were hampered by Farish being acquired by Bachmann and stopping all separate bogies as they went over to batch production in China, so alternataves had to be used. Both wagons were inspired by "Somewhere in England" by G Atkinson and Andy Calverts "Moorcock" by the way.

[Mr Sprue]

Again, you mention you consider them to be 'scratch building' aids. Again, if this was mentioned in the description on the NGS website members would be better prepared for the challenge in front of themselves.

Maybe it would be beneficial for those who 'know' the kits to update the description on the website to better inform people of what to expect.

"Scratch aids" normally have things missing where upon the modeler has to improvise e.g to fill a hole where a roof would curve down to a join an end, etched brass kits are renowned for this headache!

Concerning NGS kits they are pretty much complete and yes if there are parts to be sourced elsewhere then yes in that scenario I completely agree the word "Scratch aid" should be mentioned.   

But to be fair NGS do mention in their listings whether the kit is easily assembled or will prove to be a challenge!

To be fair, they don't mention that at all.

The info on the Warwell kit says:

"Ex Parkwood Models kit representing type used from WW2 to mid 1970s. Supplied with diamond frame bogies." On the main NGS website,

and

"Kit 50a. WD Warwell (NGSK0500)

(Eras 3-7)

Decals are not included in this kit, but are available under 'NGS Decals', item NGST0500 (click to go to page)." On the NGS shop website.

So I think some improvements in the descriptions of the kits could be made.

I didn't scroll down that far on the NGS Kits Page but it does in most cases give some kind of skill info in the descriptions.

But yes I agree there is a possible need for improvement in that area.

[PaulCheffus]

The NGS Gresley full brake must be one due to the bogies. They require end transoms to stop the wheel sets from dropping out at the slightest provocation, and yes I have built 5 of these including one shortened to make a Great Eastern version.

Hi

Are these older bogies as I've just built one (bought this year) and the wheel sets stay firmly in the bogies.

I have also built one of the Warwells and don't remember having any issues putting it together. Its not finished as I am converting it into one of these
https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brtwinjibcrane/e17cbd2e8

Cheers

Paul

[crewearpley40]

paul

would this help ?

plus commentary

https://www.flickr.com/photos/36034969@N08/46860429521


Heavy Duty Non Self Propelled Track Relayer.
DETAILS FOR THIS VEHICLE:

Location ; Washwood Heath Yard.

Date : 21/10/1989.

Type : Heavy Duty Twin Jib Track Relayer.

Number : DRB 78113.

Number Series : DRB 78101-3/6-9/12-13/19-23.

Builder : 1969-75 by BREL/British Hoist & Crane Co.

TOPS Code : YJW.

CCE Code : TRM.



ADDITIONAL NOTES.

With the advent of concrete sleepers came the need for a track relayer capable of lifting a much heavier track panel with the sleepers still attached. British Rail Engineering opted for a twin jib machine with central operating cab and using redundant SR and LMSR 'Warwell' wagons as a platform. With the installation of two 6.5 ton British Hoist & Crane Co. cranes it gave a safe lift capacity of 12 tons. 14 such machines were built mainly for use on the London Midland Region but soon appeared on the ER, ScR and SR too. Most carried pre TOPS machine numbers with the prefix TRM (this one here being TRM14) but with the advent of CEPS (BR Civil Engineers Plant System numbers) in 1974 all received numbers in the DR 781xxx number range.

Most saw use well into the 1980's but their downfall was vacuum brakes, friction bearings on the old wagon bogies and the fact they were not self propelled. The DR 781xxx numbered machine were unpowered so needed a locomotive attached to shuttle up and down with them to load track panels onto a waiting engineers train. The more modern machines built from 1978 onward being self propelled were much more efficient. DRB 78113 was one of the last two in service and when photographed at Washwood Heath belonged to the RCE Birmingham Division. It was withdrawn in 1991 and scrapped at Rugby Plant Depot by Coopers Metals Ltd in June 1992. It was only outlived by DRB 78123 allocated to Polmadie in Scotland.

[PaulCheffus]

would this help ?

Hi

It would indeed, thank you.

Cheers

Paul

[crewearpley40]

welcome paul

maybe a thread on how your constructing this interesting departmental model be great. paul bartlett 's site has interesting photos and materials on these warwells. i have seen a couple used for loading mini diggers , barrows, bobcats, fencing, tools
etc attached to a vacuum brake van and what looked a tool van converted from an old box van. i suspect the www.atmwagons.co.uk Y25 fabricated bogies or cast frame kits
are available,unsure which you need.  Gp22.5/ qp22.5 models  may have been discontinued, their website does not work


N gauge society maybe way forward