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Author Topic: Please help me signal my layout  (Read 738 times)

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Offline mickster04

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Please help me signal my layout
« on: February 05, 2019, 08:25:44 AM »
Hey team, I am building a new layout, a small branch terminus with a single platform, As per the image below, are the signals correct (enough)




No signal protecting entry to the station, ( Although that would be a 2 aspect orange/red with position 1,2,3 indicator, right?) But I figured this would be off scene.

Therefore i'm left with a home starter signal and three ground position light signals to control exit form the three sidings?? or is this over kill? Any advice would be great. I have had a hunt around for examples of other real world scenarios similar to this one but can't work out why some signals are where they are!

Offline ntpntpntp

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2019, 12:57:25 PM »
Is a train (as distinct from a shunting movement) allowed to depart from the sidings?   

I don't know if the same rules apply to British signalling, but for German signalling which I have on my layout you'd need to have a full Hauptsignal (equivalent to your home starter in this case) for the sidings if a train can depart into the block section. The ground/shunting signal wouldn't be sufficient on it's own (though would be present as a subsidiary signal on the main signal head)
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Offline mickster04

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2019, 01:50:23 AM »
A good question, yes. I anticipate there would be some permissive workings out of the sidings, up the line a bit to sort out goods trains from the bottom two sidings. and the third-from-bottom siding is used as a DMU park if not for waiting trains.

I would assume there would be a LOS signal futher up the line. which would suggest each siding needs a starter signal? hmmm. Any use for GPLS then on this layout or is it too small?

[Edit]LOS cannot be passed and wouldn't appear on a one line route that is bi-directional[/Edit]
« Last Edit: February 06, 2019, 01:55:13 AM by mickster04 »

Offline PostModN66

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2019, 09:09:26 AM »
I like the look of this layout!

I'm not saying this is absolutely correct, but I would just have the starter signal on the platform road, and just two shunt signals, one on each of the connections between the yard and the main line.   You don't need the two shunt signals on each of  two sidings that converge before joining the main.

You might argue that you need a shunt signal as a subsidiary on the starter, if trains ever needed to shunt out of the platform road then into the yard, rather than proceeding down the main line.

Cheers

Jon  :)
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Offline Delfin

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2019, 11:44:49 AM »
This is a nice layout and shouldn't be difficult to signal.  You are right in saying that the home signal (for movements from the fiddle yard) would be away behind the back scene.  So you don't need to model that.  There would also be a starter signal, again probably off behind the back scene, it needs to be positioned to allow space for shunting.  So the length of the longest train being shunted beyond the sidings dictates the distance as it would also function as the limit of shunt.

The platform starter would probably be on the end of the platform, two aspect as you show is fine, but a position light signal would be needed if you are intending to do shunt moves with empty stock etc. from the platform.  The ground position lights are fine, although you could do it with two.  You also need a GPL for movements into the siding from the main, otherwise the shunt moves would have no signalled move back into the sidings.  This signal would be outside the signal box somewhere. 

Someone will tell you that the sidings should have trap points where they join the main line and they would be right, but I wouldn't bother given the space you have available.

I'm assuming that the layout is set in the sixties to the eighties, you would need main aspect signals for departures to the fiddle yard from the sidings these days. 

Hope this helps.

Sandy

Offline Caz

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2019, 12:04:17 PM »
I would've thought another couple of shunt signals would be needed for the crossover at the end of the platform to allow the loco to release etc.

Offline Delfin

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2019, 05:00:44 PM »
I would've thought another couple of shunt signals would be needed for the crossover at the end of the platform to allow the loco to release etc.


The crossover in the sidings would not need a position light as it would probably be worked by a shunter.  However, if all moves there were controlled by the signal box then yes more ground signals would be needed, seems a bit overkill for such a layout though.  The other points within the sidings could also be worked by the shunter, reducing the number of GPLs by one as suggested above by Jon.

Sandy

Offline Lankyman

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2019, 09:20:58 PM »
A lot of what has ben said is perfectly correct and I could give you several versions of what would be acceptable depending on the era and the location but it would take far too long to explain in this forum. However, it is one thing to debate all the running and shunt moves that are possible with this layout but one thing that must not be overlooked is the existence of the level crossing across the road through the village. So you first have to decide what type of crossing it is to be and whether it needs protecting signals. I would suggest that any form of automatic crossing would not be acceptable due to the close proximity of the station and yard. That only leaves a manually controlled crossing, either barriers or gates as a viable option. That would probably require a signal immediately on each apprach to the crossing. The one leading into the station could also control the movements into the station or yard with a main aspect and subsidiary signal with route indicator and would also require a distant signal off scene. Going the other way the protecting would function as a limit for shunt moves but if there is not enough space for such moves the signal could be cleared for such moves but that would require the level crossing to be closed. That would annoy the road users. With the two signals I have proposed it would not be possible to make a shunt move towards the crossing when a train is approaching from the fiddle yard taking into account overlap and clearance point requirements depending on the signalling system used on the single line. On that point, if a token system is in operation then you would need a means of issuing and collecting the tokens at the signal box, either the Signaller going out to do the job or I know of several places where a bucket was lowered from the signalbox window. That would be a nice little bit of modelling I hvae never seen done.

It's a nice, compact layout with a lot of possibilities but signalling is a very complicated subject. However, one thing that complicates it for me is what type of passenger trains are you intending to use. Without a run round in the platform only trains with a cab at each end are possible. Any conventional loco hauled trains would have to setback onto the single line, draw into the yard to run round, then draw out of the yard and set back into the platform. Such a requirement was the reason why many branch lines closed down in the past because it was so uneconomical and required so much expensive signalling.

Ron
Ron

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2019, 09:33:20 PM »
Signalling has always been a mystery to me and, I suspect, many others and there has been talk of LOS, GPLs, starter signals, shunt signals and platform starter to name but a few.
Would anyone care to provide a 'best' list of terms in the this thread.........

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=43315.msg536750#msg536750

so I can add a block (sorry) of signalling references to the Glossary of Terms in the Knowledge Bank please?

Offline Lankyman

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2019, 10:01:06 PM »
I would love to but I don't think I could do the subject justice in the limited time I have left in this life. Even if I tried I would probably infringe copyright laws as I couldn't possibly do it all from memory. One of the problems is that different railway companies had there own terminology as did different regions of BR. When I moved to the LMR Regional ofice in Crewe in 1984 I had a lot of trouble coming to terms with different principles and practices in the LM Region, never mind what other Regions did. It was only in the 1980's that BR started to standardise terminology.

I have several books on British Signalling and one on North American Signalling but I have just picked one up off the bookshelf which I have had for many years. It's called "Modern Signalling Handbook" by Stanley Hall and published by Ian Allen. I know he produced later editions but in the back of mine is an excellent Glossary which I would recommend as a starting point for anyone interested in the subject. Unfortunately it doesn't cover semaphore signalling. In the meantime I do try to answer any questions on the subject as I have done on this accasion so long as I can keep my answer concise. Unfortunately that is not always possible.

As you don't live too far away Mick, you are welcome to pop round for a visit sometime and I will try to give you an insight into the subject with a lot of pictures.

Ron
Ron

Offline nookfield

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2019, 10:14:03 PM »
This website http://www.railsigns.uk/home.html gives a detailed explanation of Railway signals historical and current

For an easier read this PDF gves an overview of signalling http://www.railway-technical.com/signalling/british-signalling--what.pdf

Offline njee20

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2019, 09:56:49 AM »
There’s a chap on RMWeb who’s writing a book on modern signalling practices for model railways, he’s very fastidious in his replies to this sort of question, so I imagine it’ll be a comprehensive tome!

He’s a NR signalling engineer.

Offline Newportnobby

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2019, 10:42:04 AM »
Thanks All. @nookfield I've added that pdf to the Glossary :thankyousign:

Offline LAandNQFan

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2019, 02:06:42 PM »
Thinking of Lankyman's expert advice about the level crossing, it occurs to me that you could keep it simple, keep it accurate and justify your scenic break by turning the level crossing into an overbridge.  Sorry if you have your heart set on mechanising the level crossing gates!
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Offline mickster04

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Re: Please help me signal my layout
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2019, 10:00:33 PM »
My heart isn't set on the crossing, I was thinking of just hiding the entrance with some trees :D As for passenger running, DMUs mostly, I'm actually aiming for 70s80 and creeping into 90s with some of my stock. Blue to sectorisation roughly. I can see that this is all a little small to be too prototypical, and half of the signals I might need won't exist in N.

I will probably drop the crossing to simplify things. and from what it sounds like, the signals I have proposed are possible, but the layout doesn't really lend itself to accurate signalling...

 

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