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Poll

Would You Buy a Crowd Funded GWR Churchward 4700 2-8-0 in N Gauge?

No
41 (39.8%)
Yes, at least 1
51 (49.5%)
Yes at least 2
10 (9.7%)
Yes, more than 2
1 (1%)

Total Members Voted: 100

Author Topic: Suggestion for RevolutioN - GWR 4700 2-8-0  (Read 11850 times)

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Offline Roy L S

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - GWR 4700 2-8-0
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2016, 04:43:45 PM »
Hi Ben

Thank you for such a well composed reply. I think most on here would understand your reservations.

What the comparative reject rate Steam v's Diesel is in British N I wouldn't wish to speculate. However (and for balance) it could be argued there have been some less than good experiences as far as Diesels are concerned too (Think blown PCBs on Dapol 26's and 67's and split gears even on a few of the most recent Farish offerings. Then compare that with the relatively few reported problems with the exquisite but comparatively simple (mechanically) Farish J39s.

As I see it there are a number of factors that will influence the failure rates with end-users, these being quality of design (and rigour of testing), assembly and then QC checking. As you say, all this must be balanced against price sensitivity. I feel sure, based on my own experience, that a simple 0-6-0 loco would present comparatively little extra risk as opposed to a Diesel, so I do hope you may consider such an option in the future. In the meantime, how about a 1st Gen DMU such as a Derby Lightweight?

Whatever you decide to do I think it is great that you are already have three out of four projects past the post - not a bad track-record!!

Regards

Roy

Offline Ben A

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - GWR 4700 2-8-0
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2016, 09:30:30 PM »

Hi Roy,

Thanks for that.

I think it is also worth bearing in mind that we are incredibly new to the party - we only laser scanned our first vehicle a year ago, and even now while it's clear we have made great progress not a single customer has actually received a Revolution branded model yet.  It's not far away now, true, but we are not there yet.

Going forward, and assuming that all goes well with the upcoming models, then we will grow in confidence and, I hope, in ambition.

I would also like to think - and I have said this from the start - that we will reach a point where we can simply facilitate models that are "sponsored" by others, for others.  By this I mean someone (like Matt, for example) would suggest a project then manage the research, design, social media activity, publicity etc - and use our developing web presence and network of backers to bring their own projects to the table. 

But I think, given the small (but growing) size of British N Gauge and the seemingly risk-averse nature of some parts of the market, that this may be a year or more away.

cheers

Ben A.



Offline DCCDave

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - GWR 4700 2-8-0
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2016, 09:51:06 PM »
But I think, given the small (but growing) size of British N Gauge and the seemingly risk-averse nature of some parts of the market, that this may be a year or more away.

I think some of the risk-aversion we see is precisely because you haven't delivered a product yet. When you do, and it's seen to be a success, then I think more folks might feel comfortable coming on board.

Cheers
Dave


Offline Ben A

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - GWR 4700 2-8-0
« Reply #48 on: February 13, 2016, 12:40:51 AM »
But I think, given the small (but growing) size of British N Gauge and the seemingly risk-averse nature of some parts of the market, that this may be a year or more away.

I think some of the risk-aversion we see is precisely because you haven't delivered a product yet. When you do, and it's seen to be a success, then I think more folks might feel comfortable coming on board.

Cheers
Dave

Hi Dave,

In theory you're absolutely right, but I think it's more nuanced than that.

Of the four projects we have attempted (Pendo, TEA, 321 and 21/9) the three "modern" ones are either in production, in late stage development or progressing to CAD while the one "steam/diesel transition" era model failed.  And not just by a little - it didn't even get close, I am sorry to say.

The sample size IS small - just four projects - so it is risky to infer too much.  Nonetheless I am finding it hard to avoid thinking that specific sector of the market is less receptive to the crowd-funding methodology.

If so - why?  I don't know.  Possibly average customer age, possibly the wide choice of existing models, possibly a poor selection of prototype by us.

cheers

Ben A.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 12:42:07 AM by Ben A »



Online Snowwolflair

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - GWR 4700 2-8-0
« Reply #49 on: February 13, 2016, 02:50:08 AM »
Very Usefull input.

This is why Union Mills stick to the simplest loco types with only basic outside motion.

The one advantage of GWR prototypes is the piston arrangement is relatively simple, hence in the early days of Farish the Hall was a good choice, and despite other problems with mechanisms the valve gear rarely gave problems.

What are the options of locomotive prototypes where the mechanisms are bought in as variations of existing models that are proven from existing manufacturers.  This increases reliability and also could provide a spare part source?

NB. I would really like an LNER Hush Hush

Offline trkilliman

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - GWR 4700 2-8-0
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2016, 09:12:14 AM »
This has become a very interesting thread with a range of good comments.

With GWRs locos being probably the most popular then I imagine there is quite some potential for sales. Yes,steam locos having so many moving parts will always have the potential for more to go wrong.
This forum has been lively at times with peoples accounts of steam loco failures, some straight out of the box and others very soon after their initial run. We will all have had differing experiences of how our new steam locos run, or otherwise. The number of failures though probably does not instill confidence in enough people to currently crowdfund a steam loco & tender...which is a shame. Would knowing the likely manufacturer up front have an influence on backers?

Of the two major manufacturers of U.K. steam one seems to be striding ahead in technical terms, with the other now having to play catch up, well that's how I perceive it.

I am seeing/accepting both sides of the coin even though I would like to see a 47xx come to fruition. Interesting. 

Offline Roy L S

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - GWR 4700 2-8-0
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2016, 09:20:39 AM »
Very Usefull input.

This is why Union Mills stick to the simplest loco types with only basic outside motion.

The one advantage of GWR prototypes is the piston arrangement is relatively simple, hence in the early days of Farish the Hall was a good choice, and despite other problems with mechanisms the valve gear rarely gave problems.

What are the options of locomotive prototypes where the mechanisms are bought in as variations of existing models that are proven from existing manufacturers.  This increases reliability and also could provide a spare part source?

NB. I would really like an LNER Hush Hush

None really, all mechanisms are typically bespoke to the particular loco these days.

I'm not sure Bachmann would entertain a crowdfunded type of approach but the LNER Group Standard tender-drive may be an exception (which let's face it is effectively a power-bogie) gives a number of options loco-wise - K3, D49, V2...Ditto the Stanier tender-drive (8F??).

Considering crowd funding generally, and thinking of Union Mills, I wonder how much appetite there might be to approach the for a steam loco commission - would Colin H be receptive and might that fly I wonder) there is an established mechanism, they are simpler models and much smaller production runs). This kind of thing may not meet Mike and Ben's RevolutioN ethos of pushing boundaries, but it does make you wonder if it may be another possibility (well ok, me anyway!)...

Roy

Offline CarriageShed

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - GWR 4700 2-8-0
« Reply #52 on: February 15, 2016, 01:00:42 PM »
You may be afraid of steam locomotives, but that doesn't have to mean that you're afraid of steam-era rolling stock. I could suggest a raft of items that you could contemplate, such as Midland clerestory coaches, for example. These ran throughout the twentieth century steam era, in Midland, LMS, and BR colours. Surely that provides a wide enough sales base for it to be worthy of consideration?

Offline red_death

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - GWR 4700 2-8-0
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2016, 11:40:09 AM »
You may be afraid of steam locomotives, but that doesn't have to mean that you're afraid of steam-era rolling stock. I could suggest a raft of items that you could contemplate, such as Midland clerestory coaches, for example. These ran throughout the twentieth century steam era, in Midland, LMS, and BR colours. Surely that provides a wide enough sales base for it to be worthy of consideration?

The simple answer is - I have no idea! Please feel free to start a new thread, make the case and see if there are enough like-minded people out there.

As we have said on this thread and others, we are happy to try and facilitate production of "niche"-ish models if a compelling case can be made.

Cheers, Mike



Offline shandy

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - GWR 4700 2-8-0
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2016, 02:01:40 PM »
Matt,

Very interesting thread and I'd be up for at least one if DCC ready and minus Cardan shaft.

Cheers


Offline Simon.exd

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Re: Suggestion for RevolutioN - GWR 4700 2-8-0
« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2019, 02:18:23 PM »
I have just joined the group, and came  across this, I am in the process of selling all my o gauge and starting an n gauge layout.  I would buy at least 2 47xx locos, I have a photo of my grandad driving one taken at our local station, Exeter St Davids in July 1960 so for me 4705 would be the one!

 

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