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Author Topic: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels  (Read 343 times)

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Offline kurita

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Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« on: December 07, 2018, 08:26:38 AM »
Hello,

New member here with a fairly deep knowledge of japanese prototypes and a large collection of japanese n scale. live in britain but only a passing familiarity with actual british trains.

this may be a silly question, but i took a train from manchester oxford road (city centre, manchester) to liverpool (essentially city centre) yesterday - two major urban centres with essentially suburban and commuter stations inbetween and fairly decent ridership. At the midway the large urbanization of warrington is passed and the train had good ridership.  can somebody explain to my why it is i took an environmentally ruinous diesel train between the two?  or is there no real logically justifiable answer other than the broadly shambolic state of pre and post privatisation britain?   

In case there is any doubt, my question is not meant to be provocative. I am honestly curious about this and as you can tell i'm a bit shocked to hear that diesels (DMU) are being operated on such routes - i'll refrain from further superlatives other than this strikes me as grossly inappropriate for 2018.



Offline Bealman

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2018, 08:45:26 AM »
Hi kurita, and welcome to the NGF!  :thumbsup:

Interesting intro...

Someone will be along soon!
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Online crewearpley40

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2018, 09:33:12 AM »
if you read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool%E2%80%93Manchester_lines


you took the southern route, through warrington   although electrification may or may not happen, and its mainly an old infrastructure, funding thats stopping faster services

Offline Steven B

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2018, 09:45:08 AM »
The direct Manchester to Liverpool has been electrified since March 2015 and so electric trains do run between the two cities.

The train is likely to have been a service that runs for part of its route over non-electrified lines; What's better for these passengers - making them swap trains half-way along their journey or running diesel under the wires?

Some of our newer trains are bi-modal allowing them to be powered by electricity when it's available but with diesel engines to keep them moving once the wires run out.

Our "shambolic" railways might not run as well as those in Japan, but they're still the busiest in Europe and handles significantly more freight (10% of all freight in UK, compared to 1% in Japan).

Offline MJKERR

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2018, 10:04:20 AM »
Manchester to Liverpool

Sadly you have taken the localised urban service, run by Northern Rail
Typical journey time one hour and 10 minutes, with 13 calling points

You really should have taken the inter-urban or express service, run by TPE
Typical journey time 40 minutes, with one calling point

Running DMU on such services is not unusual
Central Scotland (SPT area) is very similar and is only now also converting these to electrified
The final phases will be those routes which are primarily localised urban services
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 10:07:29 AM by MJKERR »

Online crewearpley40

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2018, 10:07:48 AM »
common mistake. i would have taken the route via newton le willows, direct and quicker but as have family / meetings in warrington and liverpool i only travel that route. its un nerving if you are unsure. but agree with the above comments

Offline kurita

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2018, 11:46:31 AM »
Manchester to Liverpool

I was going from manchester airport to mossley hill and this was the fastest and most logical all train connection available.  Thanks for the second guessing though.   :-\

as it were, yes, i do think that people on infrequently used rural services should, as a general principle, be forced to change trains.  diesel rail is incredibly polluting, especially in relatively enclosed urban areas/stations and there is no reason for the many to suffer pollution for the benefit of the few and tolerating such outdated technologies discourages innovation and improvement.  that also said, i find the idea that this line was only fully electrified in 2015 or whatever to be, well, difficult to contemplate.  as a rail fan, i have a warm place in my heart for DMUs, but for city-to-city travel to busy routes it is stunning to contemplate that they long haven't been relegated to the dustbin of history.  There must be some, but off the top of my head I can't think of a single other close city pair like this outside of the UK that still uses diesels regularly for such short fixed urban routes (33 miles or so, end to end).  The defensive comments to my question notwithstanding, my evaluation of "shambles" seems not to be far off.

This:

https://www.railway-technology.com/features/featurethe-big-stink-how-much-do-trains-really-emit-4807131/

gives some idea of the pollution effects of diesel.   and mind you this service started at manchester oxford road and terminated in liverpool lime street - no rural stations involved.  my sympathies go out to the commuters and train crew who have to breathe diesel poision every day because of, what in the absence of a decent explanation otherwise, i'll cough up to poor planning and management. 

Online RailGooner

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2018, 11:54:19 AM »
Hi @kurita  and welcome aboard! :wave:

The answer to why UK railways aren't greener, is rooted in a (World) war (II) that bankrupted us, followed by decades of repaying loans we'd taken out to fund the war. To go into greater detail would draw us into discussing (the forbidden) politics.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 11:57:22 AM by RailGooner »
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Online red_death

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2018, 12:09:12 PM »
The link from the Railway Tech website is really about enclosed stations which are not the same as emissions in open air at all!  It is important to make a fair comparison as well - generally diesel trains (and buses) are less polluting per passenger when reasonably fully loaded than say a car. Of course electric trains also generate emissions, just at the power station (until we have much greater renewables (or nuclear - looking unlikely as we're struggling to replace existing plants)) rather than on the train.

As to why the route through Warrington is not electrified - lack of investment and/or planning. Simple as that really.



Online NGS-PO

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2018, 12:20:58 PM »
Hi @kurita  and welcome aboard! :wave:

The answer to why UK railways aren't greener, is rooted in a (World) war (II) that bankrupted us, followed by decades of repaying loans we'd taken out to fund the war. To go into greater detail would draw us into discussing (the forbidden) politics.

Allied to that (pun not intended), I would suggest that unlike many european countries and, relevantly for the OP, Japan, UK railways were not as a rule too adversely affected by combat during the war, and hence they weren't seen as the highest priority for rebuilding. If we had been building a railway from scratch again, in 1946, (and of course we hadn't been bankrupted by 6 years of combat) perhaps the whole network would be electrified by now.

I think, on the whole, and under the circumstances, our railway is pretty good. Could it be better? sure. But I wouldn't say it's a shambles. I'd say it's a victim of circumstances.

Best

Scott
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Online njee20

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2018, 02:19:57 PM »
If that's you not being provocative I'd love to see your provocative posting!  ::)

I think Mike's answer covers it best, there's no specific reason, it's not a conspiracy, it's nothing to do with the shambolic state of the railways, and purely a function of not having spent millions on pounds upgrading Victorian infrastructure for a marginal benefit. Surely you could say the same of any route utilised by diesel trains anywhere on the planet? I guarantee there are plenty with higher ridership figures than the secondary route between Manchester and Liverpool!

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2018, 03:30:20 PM »
Nuclear power stations are not pollution free either and  produce pollution of a type that is an immediate threat ,look at Chernobyl ,Fukushima Daiichi  ,Three Mile Island or the clean up of any power station after a relatively  short lifespan. .
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 03:36:28 PM by javlinfaw7, Reason: Spelling »

Online njee20

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2018, 03:32:08 PM »
That's a bit unfair. That's like saying "wind turbines let off terrible pollution when they explode"!

Online javlinfaw7

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2018, 03:45:31 PM »
Wind turbines do not require to be buried underground encased in concrete for a indeterminate number of years ,and while the nuclear industry has a relatively good safety record the waste is particularly toxic and difficult to dispose of.

Online red_death

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Re: Manchester to Liverpool - diesels
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2018, 04:11:07 PM »
Sure nuclear plants have issues but accidents are not normal occurrences. A while ago (while studying for an environmental science degree) I did a study on the indirect CO2 emissions from a nuclear plant (trying to cover as much as possible from construction, mining of ore, fuel processing to decommissioning and long term storage ie use of concrete and CO2 from construction/transport etc) to see how a nuclear plant compares with say gas or coal. Part of the problem is that we don't have sufficient information for the long term impacts but even with very conservative estimates nuclear comes out considerably more favourable than coal (as you would expect) and compared reasonably well with modern CCGT gas plants.

Even renewables have climate change impacts during construction or mining eg you need a fair chunk of concrete and steel for a wind turbine - I can't remember the pay off periods but I'm sure they would be easy to find online.

Nothing comes for free - thermodynamics innit!



 

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