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Author Topic: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout  (Read 2951 times)

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2018, 07:11:57 PM »
Hi John,

I'm getting this now. I may even do what I've mocked-up here (with DC in mind), which I believe would give me 2 long trains on the outer loop and 1 long and 1 shorter train on the inner (using reversing of course). That's basically doubled the number of trains I thought I could have!  :claphappy:

Another question: how do you turn on and off isolated sidings? I imagine I'd need to make a switch panel like yours, John.

Matt





Hello Matt

That looks to be a very nice plan.  As your layout is to be set in Germany, I assume that the outer oval will run anti-clockwise and the inner oval clockwise.  That's the opposite to what you will see in British and French layouts.

If that's the case, I suggest that you make the inner oval sidings start at the right-hand side.  That way, trains running round the oval, while you enjoy watching them, will encounter the points in what is called the 'trailing direction'.  This is prototypical and will probably give better running and fewer derailments at the points.  You will also drive out of sidings and reverse in on both ovals.

There is another advantage to this.  I think many members of the Forum would advise you to have a short straight between a curve and a set of points, particularly 'facing points' (sorry about this jargon - if you don't understand anything please feel free to ask.  There are many very knowledgeable people who will help you!).  If you arrange your inner oval points as I suggest, you will have a lovely long straight between the curve and the points for normal running.  When you are reversing into the siding the train will be travelling  slowly and derailments will be less likely.  Certainly, I have no trouble reversing into the sidings on my layout.  I suggest that you test this before fixing your track down, just to make sure.

Finally, the points that we buy can normally be 'self-isolating' or 'route switching' when used with DC.  This means that the route that the points are set for is electrically 'live' and the other route is 'dead'.  This can get more involved with complicated layouts which have complex junctions and suchlike.  But, for your layout, this will be the case.  Please check with the retailer of the make of track that you are going to use.  (I use Peco or Kato.)  If this is the case, there is no need for a switch panel.  My present layout has no electrical switches.  A twin track controller (Gaugemaster and nearly 30 years old) is all I have - just like a train set!  My points are manually operated.

One final thought.  If you plan on converting to DCC at a later date, I think that will require a different approach to the points.  I know almost nothing of DCC but there are many members on the Forum who will give you expert advice.

Best wishes.

John
'Why does the Disney Castle work so well?  Because it borrows from reality without ever slipping into it.'

(Acknowledgement: John Goodall Esq, Architectural Editor, 'Country Life'.)


The Table-Top Railway is a train set trying and failing to be a model railway.

I believe that train sets and model railways are fun.

Offline Globi

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2018, 07:51:07 AM »

Hello Matt

That looks to be a very nice plan.  As your layout is to be set in Germany, I assume that the outer oval will run anti-clockwise and the inner oval clockwise.  That's the opposite to what you will see in British and French layouts.

If that's the case, I suggest that you make the inner oval sidings start at the right-hand side.  That way, trains running round the oval, while you enjoy watching them, will encounter the points in what is called the 'trailing direction'.  This is prototypical and will probably give better running and fewer derailments at the points.  You will also drive out of sidings and reverse in on both ovals.

There is another advantage to this.  I think many members of the Forum would advise you to have a short straight between a curve and a set of points, particularly 'facing points' (sorry about this jargon - if you don't understand anything please feel free to ask.  There are many very knowledgeable people who will help you!).  If you arrange your inner oval points as I suggest, you will have a lovely long straight between the curve and the points for normal running.  When you are reversing into the siding the train will be travelling  slowly and derailments will be less likely.  Certainly, I have no trouble reversing into the sidings on my layout.  I suggest that you test this before fixing your track down, just to make sure.

Finally, the points that we buy can normally be 'self-isolating' or 'route switching' when used with DC.  This means that the route that the points are set for is electrically 'live' and the other route is 'dead'.  This can get more involved with complicated layouts which have complex junctions and suchlike.  But, for your layout, this will be the case.  Please check with the retailer of the make of track that you are going to use.  (I use Peco or Kato.)  If this is the case, there is no need for a switch panel.  My present layout has no electrical switches.  A twin track controller (Gaugemaster and nearly 30 years old) is all I have - just like a train set!  My points are manually operated.

One final thought.  If you plan on converting to DCC at a later date, I think that will require a different approach to the points.  I know almost nothing of DCC but there are many members on the Forum who will give you expert advice.

Best wishes.

John


Hi John,

Wow thanks for the great advice, please see ammendments made in line with this.

Two questions though: firstly, is it bad to have two points directly in sequence as with the red and green points highlighted and secondly, do you suggest a 10cm straight between my curved track and all the other points or can I get away with less for reliable running?


Much appreciated
Matt

P.s. my sidings on the inner loop are likely to arc inwards more steeply than shown, so I can make the tracks a little longer.
P.p.s how close do people generally go to the edge of baseboards with their track work?



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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2018, 08:12:36 AM »
I know nothing about Fleichmann track but my Peco ones work fine next to each other.
Also your points seem to have a longish section built in (or is that my eyes?). With Peco it’s generally advisable to put a small straight in before the point but with yours that may not be necessary.
I think you have allowed enough space between the track and baseboard edge. You just don’t want any expensive locos taking a plunge.
And,  I really like the way that you’ve skewed the oval a bit so that it’s not dead central on the board. A nifty idea.
If it looks right then it most probably is right.


Offline Globi

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2018, 08:20:42 AM »
I know nothing about Fleichmann track but my Peco ones work fine next to each other.
Also your points seem to have a longish section built in (or is that my eyes?). With Peco it’s generally advisable to put a small straight in before the point but with yours that may not be necessary.
I think you have allowed enough space between the track and baseboard edge. You just don’t want any expensive locos taking a plunge.
And,  I really like the way that you’ve skewed the oval a bit so that it’s not dead central on the board. A nifty idea.

Thanks Port Perran - the skew was another member's idea, it does work well!

Actually I have not purchased any points yet, I'm just mocking up with bits of straight laying about... but you are correct, I have mocked up with straights before the points.

Cheers
Matt

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2018, 08:31:20 AM »
 Agree with everything PP has said above.  :thumbsup:
Vision over visibility. Bono, U2.

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2018, 09:18:31 AM »
Hi John,

Wow thanks for the great advice, please see ammendments made in line with this.

Two questions though: firstly, is it bad to have two points directly in sequence as with the red and green points highlighted and secondly, do you suggest a 10cm straight between my curved track and all the other points or can I get away with less for reliable running?


Much appreciated
Matt

P.s. my sidings on the inner loop are likely to arc inwards more steeply than shown, so I can make the tracks a little longer.
P.p.s how close do people generally go to the edge of baseboards with their track work?





Hello Matt

Thank you for your kind comments.  I think the latest version of your plan is excellent.

I agree completely with Martin's @port perran comments.  Very sound advice from an expert layout builder.  If you have not already seen them, I recommend his Port Perran and Trepol Bay and Tregonning threads which are truly inspirational.

As for your questions, my experience is:


Approached in the facing direction, a short straight is advisable between a curve and the switch of the point (the point blades).  Like this: 


This is my last layout, moribund at present.  It is configured for British operation, so the faraway track runs left to right and the nearest track runs right to left.  It is Kato 'Unitrack', which is very good.  The points are for loops.  The faraway one is approached in the facing direction and I found, after experimentation (yes; 'wheels on the ballast') that a straight track was required between the point and the curve.  I experimented with various Kato 'Unitrack' lengths and found the 45mm track piece the shortest one which gave completely reliable running.  Of course, much depends on the trains that one is running.  In my experience steam locomotives were more prone to derailment than diesels.

Please note that the nearest track has no short straight.  The trains run over the point in the trailing direction and gave no difficulties whatsoever.  The resulting asymmetric loops gave the longest loop length possible commensurate with a short straight where required.

This second picture, from my present train set layout,

shows a point traversed in the trailing direction and leading on to a curve, which is working very reliably.  The diverging track of that point then leads to two other points in a 'ladder' formation.  There are no straight tracks between the points.  Of course, these points are traversed at slow speed, but they give no difficulties at all.  (Well, there can be one potential difficulty, but it's not relevant here, I think.)  The track, in this case, is Peco 'Setrack' which I like very much.  The points are a small radius at 9" (228mm), but work well.  The Kato points in the first picture are of 718mm radius.

With regard to track near the baseboard edge, it is best to allow room for a train to derail at speed without falling off.  And, more likely in my case, one can easily knock a train off the rails when leaning over the baseboard!  I allow a minimum of 45mm for this.

With best wishes.

John
'Why does the Disney Castle work so well?  Because it borrows from reality without ever slipping into it.'

(Acknowledgement: John Goodall Esq, Architectural Editor, 'Country Life'.)


The Table-Top Railway is a train set trying and failing to be a model railway.

I believe that train sets and model railways are fun.

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2018, 10:03:51 AM »
Thank you John and Bealman, that's a really clear explanation.

Now that the plan is modified to have all trains running the main lines meeting points in the trailing direction, it seems I may get away without putting a short straight in before them (correct me if I'm wrong). Have you been fine in your new layout with slowly reversing trains off the mainline curves into your sidings in a facing direction without the short straight? I will do some tests of my own as soon as my sidings arrive.

Cheers
Matt :beers:

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2018, 09:37:54 PM »
Hi Matt,
30 years ago I modelled British outline myself and experienced many of the derailing problems being talked about, especially with the bogies and pony trucks of steam locos and from what is being said I think this must still be a problem.
My current Swiss layout is Peco Code 55 track/points with a small number of Minitrix points and I can honestly say that I never have any derailments caused by the trackwork. I have points immediately after and before curves, points on gradients (both up and down and curved), facing points taken at full speed etc. etc.
What I am trying to say is that you will be unlikely to experience many of the derailment problems that are being talked about with the locos and rolling stock that you are likely to be using on a modern German based layout. However, if it makes you feel more confident then it's never a bad thing to carry out some tests before you finally start track laying.
John

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2018, 09:55:13 PM »
Hi Matt,
30 years ago I modelled British outline myself and experienced many of the derailing problems being talked about, especially with the bogies and pony trucks of steam locos and from what is being said I think this must still be a problem.
My current Swiss layout is Peco Code 55 track/points with a small number of Minitrix points and I can honestly say that I never have any derailments caused by the trackwork. I have points immediately after and before curves, points on gradients (both up and down and curved), facing points taken at full speed etc. etc.
What I am trying to say is that you will be unlikely to experience many of the derailment problems that are being talked about with the locos and rolling stock that you are likely to be using on a modern German based layout. However, if it makes you feel more confident then it's never a bad thing to carry out some tests before you finally start track laying.

Thanks for the advice John. I've just ordered the points so I'll be able to play with the proposed layout a while.

I have a new problem though. My only current loco is a DB101 from Fleischmann and very nice it is too. It is factory fitted DCC. I'm running it on DC and the layout will be DC. It runs fine apart from one thing: when starting her up I have to move the dial all the way to 60 and then she sudenly leaps into motion. If I turn it down and then slowly up again I then get the nice slow crawl desired. If the loco is off for any period ishe then reverts to surging the first time she is started up again. Weird!

This is going to present a problem if I'm keeping trains backed up in sidings. If I start the train in the wrong direction, it could easily surge back and crash the bumpers! Should I remove the DCC chip given I'm unlikely to use it for the foreseeable in DCC? I'm a bit scared of opening the loco up!

Matt  :hmmm: :confused2:

Offline ntpntpntp

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2018, 11:47:35 PM »
My only current loco is a DB101 from Fleischmann and very nice it is too. It is factory fitted DCC. I'm running it on DC ... when starting her up I have to move the dial all the way to 60 and then she sudenly leaps into motion. If I turn it down and then slowly up again I then get the nice slow crawl desired.

When you run a decoder fitted loco on DC, the decoder requires 5-6 volts before the electronics can "wake up" and start running its programming, at which point it can then examine the incoming power and recognise it as DC rather than DCC.   As a consequence a DC and a DCC fitted loco of the same model won't usually start and run at the same controller setting.  When you get it moving then turn the controller down a little, then as long as the decoder is still powered up it can continue to power the motor but more slowly.
How well the decoder handles slow starts and stops when it's running on DC can depend on the decoder used and also the acceleration/deceleration CV settings.

Quote
This is going to present a problem if I'm keeping trains backed up in sidings. If I start the train in the wrong direction, it could easily surge back and crash the bumpers! Should I remove the DCC chip given I'm unlikely to use it for the foreseeable in DCC? I'm a bit scared of opening the loco up!

If you're not going to run DCC for a while then yes I'd say replace the decoder with a blanking plate for now, just so that you get a more direct response to the controller especially in the low speed range.
My layout is DC, and I have a large fleet of locos, some dating back to the 60s, so I have no desire to move to DCC. A small handful of my fleet are or were DCC fitted, and most of those have had their decoders swapped out.

I like 101s!


« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 11:51:48 PM by ntpntpntp »
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2018, 07:15:59 AM »
Hi ntpntpntp,

I love your 101 collection, yes, they're good looking locos! Nice simple, clean lines.

Your response confirms my suspicions. I'm struggling to find any good resources or videos showing DCC chip removal and blanking being done on this type of loco, do you know of any?

If I just use the box instructions, is it terribly difficult to perform? I don't usually do electronics, but the closest thing I've done is installing RAM and HDDs in computers!

Matt

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2018, 08:59:22 AM »
Should be just a case of removing the bodyshell, removing the decoder and replacing with a blanking plate making sure you orientate it correctly.   Literally a minute's work. Did it come with a blanking plate?  They're not difficult to get hold of but different brands of plate may not be exactly the same size. Fleischmann often seem to mount the decoder vertically on one side of the chassis rather than across the top.

My 101s are the original Roco model, I don't know how much has been re-tooled when Roco became part of Fleischmann, or whether it's a totally different chassis.    Given that the 101 was one of Roco's last new N models and cost a lot to develop I'd have thought as much as possible would have been retained.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 09:04:12 AM by ntpntpntp »
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2018, 09:18:49 AM »
Should be just a case of removing the bodyshell, removing the decoder and replacing with a blanking plate making sure you orientate it correctly.   


Hi, you're right the 'lid' came off very easily!

Here's a pic of what I'm guessing is the chip. Is the black plastic part of the chip and should it slide off with the chip? I guess I put the blanking plug on (I've contacted Gaugemaaster to see if they have one) and leave the chip tucked up in the roof of the 101 somewhere.

Cheers
Matt




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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2018, 09:25:45 AM »
Thank you John and Bealman, that's a really clear explanation.

Now that the plan is modified to have all trains running the main lines meeting points in the trailing direction, it seems I may get away without putting a short straight in before them (correct me if I'm wrong). Have you been fine in your new layout with slowly reversing trains off the mainline curves into your sidings in a facing direction without the short straight? I will do some tests of my own as soon as my sidings arrive.

Cheers
Matt :beers:

Hello Matt

Thank you for this.  The answer, I'm glad to say, is yes.

The best test of this is the 'inner oval', what I call the Down main line.  The end curves are Peco 'Setrack' No. 2 radius (263.5mm) and the points are No. 1 radius (228mm).  If I use the first siding, next to the main line, the effect is a 228mm reverse curve over points.  Asking for trouble, particularly with bogie coaches: maybe!  Therefore, I normally use the second, or middle, siding for passenger trains and the first siding for goods trains with short wheelbase wagons.

To answer your question as truly as I can, I have made a short film of a Great Western locomotive reversing a passenger train into the first siding!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4iztjz6dk5b5lxs/Reversing%20for%20Matt.MOV?dl=0

I'm sorry that the train appears a tad 'jerky' in motion.  It's not like that in reality and I have had this problem before.  Perhaps a better camera is required!

Best wishes.

John

'Why does the Disney Castle work so well?  Because it borrows from reality without ever slipping into it.'

(Acknowledgement: John Goodall Esq, Architectural Editor, 'Country Life'.)


The Table-Top Railway is a train set trying and failing to be a model railway.

I believe that train sets and model railways are fun.

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2018, 09:39:42 AM »
I sure as heck hope this is the decoder, because it's out now (and unharmed)!

May need a gin now!!! :thumbsup:


 

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