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Author Topic: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout  (Read 2953 times)

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Offline Globi

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2018, 02:08:34 PM »
Thanks for the layout feedback Swisstrains and everbody! I think the scenario suggested with a goods area (which could also double as a passenger train storage/maintenance area) works nicely.

Is anybody out there very au-fait with the Fleischmann/Roco non-ballasted track system who can tell me if I've selected the correct points to purchase? I'd rather have 15 degree where possible for a smooth transition.

Cheers
Matt



« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 02:11:37 PM by Globi »

Offline swisstrains

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2018, 09:17:47 PM »
Hi Matt.
I don't know a great deal about Fleischmann track but from what I gather the 22265 has a diverging radius of about 14.2" and the 22253 is only about 7.6" (Sorry to talk in inches.....it's an age thing  ;) )
Any reason why you have selected 22253 turnouts for the mainline crossover?  22265's would be more suited to a mainline crossover if you can fit them in.
On the real railway it is more beneficial for trains crossing between running lines to do so at a higher speed than they would if they were entering a dead-end siding.
John

Offline Globi

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2018, 09:52:01 PM »
Hi Matt.
I don't know a great deal about Fleischmann track but from what I gather the 22265 has a diverging radius of about 14.2" and the 22253 is only about 7.6" (Sorry to talk in inches.....it's an age thing  ;) )
Any reason why you have selected 22253 turnouts for the mainline crossover?  22265's would be more suited to a mainline crossover if you can fit them in.
On the real railway it is more beneficial for trains crossing between running lines to do so at a higher speed than they would if they were entering a dead-end siding.

Hi,

I agree with you, a shallow angle (i.e. the 22265's) would be better for the crossover. I'll check with Gaugemaster if they will fit neatly and use them instead.

Cheers
Matt

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2018, 10:28:00 PM »
Hello Matt

I have a similar layout under construction; a double track main line.  Strangely enough, I don't have a crossover between the two running lines as, in a previous layout with one, I almost never used it!

Are you using DC or DCC control - sorry if you have mentioned this and I've not seen it?

If DC, unless you have several switched sections, your siding on the 'outer' main line won't give you an extra train.  It might be helpful to have a second siding, that way you can easily have two trains.  As suggested earlier, a loop will give the same advantage.

I hope you don't mind, but I've taken the liberty of including a picture showing my track layout just in case it helps.  There are five sidings which enables the layout to have five trains.  Of course, it is configured for British left-hand running.  For a German layout, it will be right-hand running I expect.  It certainly has been anywhere I have seen German railways.


Best wishes for your project.

John



AAAAAAArgh its so tidy!!!!!
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 11:39:05 PM by Railwaygun »
'Why does the Disney Castle work so well?  Because it borrows from reality without ever slipping into it.'

(Acknowledgement: John Goodall Esq, Architectural Editor, 'Country Life'.)


The Table-Top Railway is a train set trying and failing to be a model railway.

I believe that train sets and model railways are fun.

Offline Globi

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2018, 07:30:22 AM »
Hello Matt

I have a similar layout under construction; a double track main line.  Strangely enough, I don't have a crossover between the two running lines as, in a previous layout with one, I almost never used it!

Are you using DC or DCC control - sorry if you have mentioned this and I've not seen it?

If DC, unless you have several switched sections, your siding on the 'outer' main line won't give you an extra train.  It might be helpful to have a second siding, that way you can easily have two trains.  As suggested earlier, a loop will give the same advantage.

I hope you don't mind, but I've taken the liberty of including a picture showing my track layout just in case it helps.  There are five sidings which enables the layout to have five trains.  Of course, it is configured for British left-hand running.  For a German layout, it will be right-hand running I expect.  It certainly has been anywhere I have seen German railways.


Best wishes for your project.

John



AAAAAAArgh its so tidy!!!!!


Hi John,

Very nice layout, thanks for including the pic! Nice to see a similar project underway. Is yours DCC or DC? My idea was to start DC but to change to DCC in the future as I get more DCC locos. I assume I would need a crossover if I went DCC, otherwise the two main lines wouldn't talk to each other?

Cheers
Matt

Offline ntpntpntp

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2018, 08:49:47 AM »
I assume I would need a crossover if I went DCC, otherwise the two main lines wouldn't talk to each other?

Surely whether or not you have a crossover is an operational choice (how you want to run your trains on the layout), and applies equally to DC or DCC.         If you install one then it's there when you need it, and it adds a little more operational possibilities. Make sure you use isolating joiners between the two points, then you're all set for DC and it will also work fine for DCC.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 08:50:52 AM by ntpntpntp »
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2018, 09:24:10 AM »
Many thanks, Matt.

My layout is DC.  Nick has answered your crossover and DCC question much better than I could; thank you Nick.

Nick is correct about the crossover.  It opens up more operational possibilities.  From my own experience with a recent layout, I almost never took advantage of these possibilities, so I didn't install one on my present layout.  To date, I have not had an operating session where I have missed it.  But I tend to like to sit with coffee/tea/foaming ale/wine, according to the time of day, and watch the trains run round!

If in doubt, best to install a crossover and wait and see if you use it when you start operating the layout.

If starting with DC, an additional siding on the outside track (if possible on your baseboard) would be an easy way to have more fun!

All the very best.

John

AAAAAAArgh its so tidy!!!!!


Many thanks @Railwaygun !  Best wishes, John.
'Why does the Disney Castle work so well?  Because it borrows from reality without ever slipping into it.'

(Acknowledgement: John Goodall Esq, Architectural Editor, 'Country Life'.)


The Table-Top Railway is a train set trying and failing to be a model railway.

I believe that train sets and model railways are fun.

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2018, 01:01:08 PM »
I assume I would need a crossover if I went DCC, otherwise the two main lines wouldn't talk to each other?

Surely whether or not you have a crossover is an operational choice (how you want to run your trains on the layout), and applies equally to DC or DCC.         If you install one then it's there when you need it, and it adds a little more operational possibilities. Make sure you use isolating joiners between the two points, then you're all set for DC and it will also work fine for DCC.

Thank you ntpntpntp! Here's a question which really reveals my newcomer status: If I make the crossover isolated, won't that present a problem when and if I ever make the layout DCC? Would I need to lift the points and remove the isolating fishplates?

Cheers
Matt

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2018, 01:03:13 PM »
Many thanks, Matt.

My layout is DC.  Nick has answered your crossover and DCC question much better than I could; thank you Nick.

Nick is correct about the crossover.  It opens up more operational possibilities.  From my own experience with a recent layout, I almost never took advantage of these possibilities, so I didn't install one on my present layout.  To date, I have not had an operating session where I have missed it.  But I tend to like to sit with coffee/tea/foaming ale/wine, according to the time of day, and watch the trains run round!

If in doubt, best to install a crossover and wait and see if you use it when you start operating the layout.

If starting with DC, an additional siding on the outside track (if possible on your baseboard) would be an easy way to have more fun!

All the very best.

John

AAAAAAArgh its so tidy!!!!!


Many thanks @Railwaygun !  Best wishes, John.


Cheers John, am I correct in thinking that with DC and one loop, you need 2 sidings to run two trains?  :hmmm:
Cheers Matt

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2018, 01:45:16 PM »
Here's a question which really reveals my newcomer status: If I make the crossover isolated, won't that present a problem when and if I ever make the layout DCC? Would I need to lift the points and remove the isolating fishplates?

Not quite sure what would make you think that?   all the time your layout is DC you will have two circuits (inside and outside ovals), each with a pair of wires feeding from a controller.  With two controllers driving the trains in opposite directions, you need to isolate the two sides of the crossover to keep those two circuits separate.   When you wish to run through the crossover you set both controllers to the same speed and direction and the train will pass through quite happily from one to the other.

When you move to DCC all you do is simply join the wires for the two circuits together into a single pair at the DCC command station's output (making sure you match rail to rail). Both ovals are now powered by the same DCC. Leave the isolating joiners where they are, they will do no harm and indeed if you ever need to switch the trackwork back to DC - for example to test some new locos - the layout is still capable.
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2018, 01:56:21 PM »

Cheers John, am I correct in thinking that with DC and one loop, you need 2 sidings to run two trains?  :hmmm:
Cheers Matt

Not wishing to jump in on your conversation with John, but basically if you don't want to be physically removing one train to run another one, you need somewhere to park the train(s) - typically one or more siding(s) which can be isolated from power.  A passing loop is another option.  It is possible, with careful driving and with locos having reasonably well matched speeds, to move both locos at the same time, drawing one train out of the siding while the other moves round the oval in front of it. You can then bring both trains round and then reverse the other train into the siding.   **VERY TRICKY ON A SMALL LAYOUT THOUGH!! **.  A better approach would be to have two sidings so that you can run one train in and isolate it before bringing the other one out onto the line.. 
 
Regarding isolating trains in sidings:  I have a feeling the Fleischmann points are not "power routing" unless you remove a little wire link (but I may be confusing with Minitrix points).   Without "power routing" both tracks remain electrically live regardless of which way the point is set. This can be overcome by having one rail of the siding isolated with a joiner, and feeding power to it via an on/off switch.  This is a very common approach on DC layouts.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 02:00:23 PM by ntpntpntp »
Nick.   2016 celebrating the 20th anniversary of "Königshafen" exhibition layout!

Offline Globi

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2018, 02:13:20 PM »
Here's a question which really reveals my newcomer status: If I make the crossover isolated, won't that present a problem when and if I ever make the layout DCC? Would I need to lift the points and remove the isolating fishplates?

Not quite sure what would make you think that?   all the time your layout is DC you will have two circuits (inside and outside ovals), each with a pair of wires feeding from a controller.  With two controllers driving the trains in opposite directions, you need to isolate the two sides of the crossover to keep those two circuits separate.   When you wish to run through the crossover you set both controllers to the same speed and direction and the train will pass through quite happily from one to the other.

When you move to DCC all you do is simply join the wires for the two circuits together into a single pair at the DCC command station's output (making sure you match rail to rail). Both ovals are now powered by the same DCC. Leave the isolating joiners where they are, they will do no harm and indeed if you ever need to switch the trackwork back to DC - for example to test some new locos - the layout is still capable.

Perfect answer, yes I see now how that would work! Thank you for explaining so clearly.

Matt  :beers:

Offline Globi

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2018, 02:14:57 PM »

Cheers John, am I correct in thinking that with DC and one loop, you need 2 sidings to run two trains?  :hmmm:
Cheers Matt

Not wishing to jump in on your conversation with John, but basically if you don't want to be physically removing one train to run another one, you need somewhere to park the train(s) - typically one or more siding(s) which can be isolated from power.  A passing loop is another option.  It is possible, with careful driving and with locos having reasonably well matched speeds, to move both locos at the same time, drawing one train out of the siding while the other moves round the oval in front of it. You can then bring both trains round and then reverse the other train into the siding.   **VERY TRICKY ON A SMALL LAYOUT THOUGH!! **.  A better approach would be to have two sidings so that you can run one train in and isolate it before bringing the other one out onto the line.. 
 
Regarding isolating trains in sidings:  I have a feeling the Fleischmann points are not "power routing" unless you remove a little wire link (but I may be confusing with Minitrix points).   Without "power routing" both tracks remain electrically live regardless of which way the point is set. This can be overcome by having one rail of the siding isolated with a joiner, and feeding power to it via an on/off switch.  This is a very common approach on DC layouts.

That confirms what I was thinking. Thank you very much for the detailed input - will definitly save me agro in the long run!

Cheers
Matt :thumbsup:

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2018, 04:49:20 PM »

Cheers John, am I correct in thinking that with DC and one loop, you need 2 sidings to run two trains?  :hmmm:
Cheers Matt


Not wishing to jump in on your conversation with John, but basically if you don't want to be physically removing one train to run another one, you need somewhere to park the train(s) - typically one or more siding(s) which can be isolated from power.  A passing loop is another option.  It is possible, with careful driving and with locos having reasonably well matched speeds, to move both locos at the same time, drawing one train out of the siding while the other moves round the oval in front of it. You can then bring both trains round and then reverse the other train into the siding.   **VERY TRICKY ON A SMALL LAYOUT THOUGH!! **.  A better approach would be to have two sidings so that you can run one train in and isolate it before bringing the other one out onto the line..   


Hello Matt

I concur entirely with what Nick says.  With DC and one siding it's either lift on/off, try the matched speed manoeuvre or arrange the main running oval with three (or more) switched sections.  I actually did this on one layout (since abandoned), thinking it would be fun, but I soon tired of all the switching on and off.  A passing loop gives you two trains easily without reversing movements.  Two sidings give two trains, three sidings three trains and so on, but with reversing movements.

If you kindly look at the picture I posted earlier, the outside oval has capacity for two trains and the inside oval has capacity for three trains, although one is short.  This arrangement is working very well on a 'four by two-and-a-half' layout.  (Say, 1220mm x 760mm).

Here is a amazingly poor quality picture of the switch panel I used to provide three switched sections on a double-track oval.


All the best.

John
'Why does the Disney Castle work so well?  Because it borrows from reality without ever slipping into it.'

(Acknowledgement: John Goodall Esq, Architectural Editor, 'Country Life'.)


The Table-Top Railway is a train set trying and failing to be a model railway.

I believe that train sets and model railways are fun.

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Re: Living Room 1:160 DB Layout
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2018, 04:59:44 PM »
Hi John,

I'm getting this now. I may even do what I've mocked-up here (with DC in mind), which I believe would give me 2 long trains on the outer loop and 1 long and 1 shorter train on the inner (using reversing of course). That's basically doubled the number of trains I thought I could have!  :claphappy:

Another question: how do you turn on and off isolated sidings? I imagine I'd need to make a switch panel like yours, John.

Matt


 

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