Electric cars - the future?

[njee20]

That just links back nicely to the OP. It isn't moot at all, that's just remarkable because it's a novel failure mechanism. You see plenty of burnt out cars, but that doesn't mean that ICE cars need better protection to avoid bursting into flames in a crash.

I can't see the combustibility of batteries being a barrier to the adoption of electric vehicle technology at all personally.

[acko22]

Ok hpefully some of you good gents can educate me on this as @Nick has pointed out the range he gets in his electric car, how long are the batteries expected to last in an electric car?
I know that depends on all the variables (how often used, temperature, how it's charged and to what % its charged and discharged), but as an average what do they say is the life expectancy? I ask as if its a case of they last 5 years but cost thousands to replace when they decide not to play anymore then it stands fairly to say its a kick up the back side saying they are more cost efficient as what you save on fuel ends up going on some fresh AAA to power it.

Also with battery cars I think the biggest draw back it the sheer weight of the batteries, a friend of mine has an electric car and when the car had it's batteries out it was almost half the weight! So while electric battery cars are a step in the right direction long term unless someone can work how to make them much lighter they don't really do the job apart from small journeys, well unless you intend to buy the tesla truck which has a range of 800 miles, but takes 2 days to charge!

[Snowwolflair]

That just links back nicely to the OP. It isn't moot at all, that's just remarkable because it's a novel failure mechanism. You see plenty of burnt out cars, but that doesn't mean that ICE cars need better protection to avoid bursting into flames in a crash.

I can't see the combustibility of batteries being a barrier to the adoption of electric vehicle technology at all personally.

In most crashes a pierced petrol tank wont explode, in a Lithium car battery a pierced battery will explode.

[njee20]

Ok hpefully some of you good gents can educate me on this as @Nick has pointed out the range he gets in his electric car, how long are the batteries expected to last in an electric car?

As with all these things there are a huge number of variables. A lot of manufacturers seem to offer 8 year/100k mile warranties on the battery, but that's totally different to a reasonable life expectation.

Given they seem popular for taxis in London one would assume it's not insignificant, I've never read stories about significant degradation in battery life, which you'd assume there would be if they were wearing out prematurely. Sure there'll be a glut of them though once people's cars do reach a point where the range is no longer useful.

Aside from all that as you say, the batteries are bloody heavy, and although they can be put low in the car to improve the centre of gravity you're never going to get away from the sheer weight of them, even with reasonable improvements in the technology.

[Nick]

Ok hpefully some of you good gents can educate me on this as @Nick has pointed out the range he gets in his electric car, how long are the batteries expected to last in an electric car?

I think that the honest truth is probably that no-one really knows in real world conditions. My car has been on the market for about nine years, under the Mitsi brand and when I bought it two years ago, neither Citroen, Peugeot nor Mitsubishi (the three brands badging it in the UK) had ever changed out an expired battery. That was seven years into the product's life, and I am fairly sure was a Europe-wide piece of info.

As I understand it, the warranty the manufacturers have been offering on the batteries has been steadily increasing as experience grows.

So, not short, but as I remarked in my earlier post, I am rather expecting that the car will be scrap when the battery expires. But how much is an average specced 10 or more year old city runabout worth anyway?

[Nick]

In most crashes a pierced petrol tank wont explode, in a Lithium car battery a pierced battery will explode.

Personally, I leave worrying about the safety engineering of the cars I drive to the designers and to the people who type approve them as roadworthy. I'm sure they have noticed that there's a lithium battery powering EVs and am equally sure that the cars are crash tested. 

[daffy]

Battery life is a very important factor. Not just in length of time/mileage, but in cost. As stated, most manufacturers give 8 years/100k miles.

But in my wife's case that would have meant a new electric car would, if she still did the same job, be out of warranty in less than four years. Colleagues she worked with would see warranty end a great deal quicker than that. (Her old work car is now in the hands of her daughter and has over 200k on the clock, and still going strong.)

Replacement cost of batteries, excluding fitting etc etc, is currently cited net-wide as anywhere between £1000 and £6000, depending on vehicle, as far as my quick search on Google suggests.

So if I were to buy a second hand electric car in, say, ten years time, how will I fare in the battery replacment stakes? Battery condition of my new purchase will be down to many factors, such as how it has been used, how often - and how fully - has it been charged, how many miles or days between charges, was the previous owner a mileage cruncher or a mileage miser, et al, Do I really want to trust the earnest assurances from the ever-smiling salesperson that "there's plenty of life left in them yet sir."
Could be a cost many would find hard to swallow.

[njee20]

Battery life is a very important factor. Not just in length of time/mileage, but in cost. As stated, most manufacturers give 8 years/100k miles.

But in my wife's case that would have meant a new electric car would, if she still did the same job, be out of warranty in less than four years. Colleagues she worked with would see warranty end a great deal quicker than that. (Her old work car is now in the hands of her daughter and has over 200k on the clock, and still going strong.)

Sure you're right, and I'm sure we'll reach that point. I wonder what the residual value of an original Prius is now? They must be 15 years old, so one would reasonably expect the batteries to be rather 'well used'. There must be examples with very high mileage.

There will always be outliers for whom technology isn't as appropriate, and I'd suggest those doing >25k miles a year are not best suited to EVs at present!

[Snowwolflair]

In most crashes a pierced petrol tank wont explode, in a Lithium car battery a pierced battery will explode.

Personally, I leave worrying about the safety engineering of the cars I drive to the designers and to the people who type approve them as roadworthy. I'm sure they have noticed that there's a lithium battery powering EVs and am equally sure that the cars are crash tested. 

That's what they said about the safety on Grenfell Tower, and as the MD of Audi has just been arrested for bypassing safety systems.......

don't hold your breath.

[njee20]

There are enough on the roads, that don't explode in crashes, for it not to be a huge concern still IMO.

[Nick]

Yes, but that's true of many other components in a
car - your wife would burn through most warranties fairly quickly.

And modern car parts are seriously expensive across the piece. I've had two pieces of work done under extended warranty on my diesel car in the last year where the parts alone were pushing two grand.

And don't even think of the central management system failing...

[Snowwolflair]

In my engineering capacity I was at an electric car symposium recently and they are scared  something really bad happens due to a battery explosion.

[njee20]

I imagine they are. Doesn't make it more of a risk though

[daffy]

Yes, but that's true of many other components in a
car - your wife would burn through most warranties fairly quickly.

And modern car parts are seriously expensive across the piece. I've had two pieces of work done under extended warranty on my diesel car in the last year where the parts alone were pushing two grand.

And don't even think of the central management system failing...

I agree, cost of parts is high these days, and most things are not for the average person to change out. But a battery for electrics cars is an exceptionally high price IMO and is more likely to fail, at least in my 47 years of driving experience, than the fossil fuel cars most expensive parts, like the CMS, or EMU, catalytic converters, or whatever.

I found these interesting comments on a US page, from 2017, about costs, life expectancy and the like of a Nissan Leaf's battery:

. If you own a 2011 to 2015 Nissan LEAF, replacing the battery will cost you exactly $5,499, plus installation, which the company estimates will take about 3 hours. Owners of 2011 and 2012 cars must also add $225 for a special adapter kit to retrofit the new battery to their cars.

And note what it says here a out warranty duration with regard to capacity loss:

The warranty on the new battery is the same as it is in a brand new LEAF — 8 years/100,000 miles against defects and 5 years/60,000 miles against capacity loss.

Whole article is here: https://cleantechnica.com/2017/10/04/nissan-leaf-replacement-battery-will-cost-5499/

Other webpages give lots of different views, some of them very positive in respect of electric cars, and I await with interest how things progress. I do like the idea of environmentally friendly vehicles that mean asthmatic folks like me get a better day out in town, and I hope that costs will slide down as technology advances - as it usually does.

[70000]

The oldest electric rubber tyred vehicle I have driven dates from circa 1914 (we think) and when it was restored 30 years ago (!) It managed Ipswich to Felixstowe & return on one charge (with a bit of help up the hill out of Ipswich..) - ie about 25 miles on secondhand lead-acid batteries.

About that time, the firm I worked for had a recently built electric Leyland Sherpa van that had a range of around 40 miles and a top speed of 60 mph!

If someone comes up with an electric car that does 300 miles between charges, I would certainly be interested.......