Graham Farish New Product Announcement - 2018 Full List

[Dr Al]

If you look at Hornby HSTs, they are now significantly more expensive than the first batches using the new tooling were when that was introduced 8 or 10 years ago. I'm sure that the much-discussed extra production costs are a factor, but given the size of the increase (when compared to other models) it seems unlikely that this is the whole picture. The RRP of the only power car pair in the 2018 range is £299.99, plus £34.99 each for the trailers (and those use a very old tooling). This does suggest that they might be inflating the prices as high as they think they can go. Not sure what it's doing to the number of units they sell, but I haven't bought any recent ones and I don't imagine I am alone.

Agreed. If I can add another from fully personal experience:

Just before switching to N in 1996 I bought a Hornby 0-4-0ST Smokey Joe.. (forgive me, I was young). It cost £17.50, and the price had just gone up. This was English production (so high cost), from a tooling that had been in use for at least a decade prior. Using an inflation calculator, this model should now cost around £30.98.

Current RRP for same model - no tooling change, produced in supposedly cheaper (maybe not now) China - £40.98. What accounts therefore for the extra 33%? Moreover you could buy a train set with a similar old tool 0-4-0, 3 wagons, track and a controller for little more just before xmas. Is it any wonder there are grumblings and noises of feeling ripped off now at some of these prices?

These are the important models for the likes of the hobby, even if not to modellers (the 0-4-0RT - rocket-tank.......) as its these that new entrants to the hobby are more likely to start with.

Cheers,
Alan

[red_death]

PS I think we're done with the discussion of amortisation of tooling - you don't know the rates and neither do I, though I do know that you are trying to compare business models which are not the same (that is from talking to both manufacturers).  In the same way that you can't compare our business model to Farish.

That is all without talking about price setting (ie philosophy of what price you set things at) or trader margins (which vary substantially).

[Dr Al]

Bachmann produced a minimum of 3 x 1008 ie 3000 per production run (though I think I've seen that they have switched to 4 x 512 on some more recent runs ie 2000 per production run).  So you already have a problem with your figures unless you mean Dapol produced 3000 in one production run.  You don't even know how many Ivatts Dapol produced as they have had variable production run numbers.  The difference in paying off the tooling on a run of 1000 vs 4000 is massive!

I don't see that as a problem - I gave a range  - if Dapol made 250 of each Ivatt livery then they made 1000 units on the first batch that paid the tooling off minimum, or if they made 1000 of each livery then they paid it off with 4000 units. Not sure the problem there - it's well known that Dapol did 250 of each of 8 66s, so it's reasonable to assume 250 was the minimum Ivatt of each livery.

I never said that they were different - I don't know and neither do you.

Then it's fair to use them as a ballpark baseline then....

Even where the component is superficially identical it will often be from a completely different set of tooling (though from the same design). The factories want to be moulding a complete set of parts for one model not hunting around for various parts from multiple sets of tooling.  If the common parts are from one complete set of tooling eg all the parts for a bogie then the factory might use existing tooling though even that can be difficult to convince them.

It's definitely the case that they do this - tooling parts are common and you can see this often in the mould lines (and mosre often the flaws) and very fine detail that is identical from model even if the prototype is different. I've pulled so many of these apart that it's absolutely clear. Things like the Duchess front bogie too - why the heck would they retool that new and do it wrong!? (it's the wrong wheelbase, as it's one from a Jubilee)....there is absolutely no mechanical reason to do so as you can fit a scale bogie with no modification....

Oh come on, now you're just being argumentative for the sake of it. I never said that "none of the tooling had been paid off" - I said you don't know how much or at what rate it is paid off.  It would be unusual to charge the whole tooling to a single production run if you were planning to rerun the tooling. The money for tooling (unless you are crowdfunding) comes from the monies invested by shareholders (that includes retained profits, bank loans, intergroup loans etc).

No, I just question how it's done, nothing argumentative. You did imply that many of the toolings may not be paid off - there've barely been 10000 37s produced for example.....

Quite why Dapol reduced their price is beyond me unless they were looking to sell greater volume at lower margins...

Or they were actually just being fair and honest that it was an older style model and the tooling was paid, so the customer can see a little bit of that saving?

Cheers,
Alan

[Dr Al]

PS I think we're done with the discussion of amortisation of tooling - you don't know the rates and neither do I, though I do know that you are trying to compare business models which are not the same (that is from talking to both manufacturers).  In the same way that you can't compare our business model to Farish.

That is all without talking about price setting (ie philosophy of what price you set things at) or trader margins (which vary substantially).

Fair enough - in terms of price setting though, I still really don't like that "max 15% discount" that Bachmann impose - that nulls competition. I'm sure it's legal, but it feels very not so!

Cheers,
Alan

[Bob Tidbury]

Having read all the above posts about prices I have come to the conclusion that on my pension I wont ever be buying another brand new Farish or Dapol loco .The only new ones I will buy are Union Mills Models that I know will last me for the rest of my life and IF they do go wrong Colin Heard will be able to repair them for a modest charge without the hasle of where and who to send it to ,in fact I have just ordered  from all of my family  for my birthday present in March a Black Collett Goods before he runs out he said he did another run before Christmas and theve nearly all sold allready .Yes its nice for all you people who can afford the new models with all the bells and whistles but I personaly just want to relax and watch my trains running without worrying how long they will last and if its got this bit that might fall off or whether the light will still work after a week or two .the Collett costs £75 and as I said it will last me for the rest of my life . Sorry Farish and Dapol you have just lost a customer but I know that wont bother either firm there will be plenty who can afford these inflated prices .
Sorry if I have ranted on but that is just how I feel at the moment ,if I win the lottery I might change my mind ,but I doubt that .
Bob Tidbury

[njee20]

In the nicest possible sense Alan, what is your point? We seem to have strayed so far into extrapolated examples from other manufacturers and scales I'm genuinely not sure.

Whilst one could argue it laudable for Dapol to drop the prices on a model once the tooling is amortised it's a pretty daft business model IMO. You have a market prepared to pay a price, why on earth would you not take a bigger margin? If the model isn't selling then perhaps drop the price, but I'd say the amortisation of the tooling cost should not influence the price of a single run of a model.

People moan about the cost of the Hornby HST, but the GWR ones sold well, so people aren't that fussed clearly! There seem to be a noisy minority of people who complain about prices, and IMO it's more commonly other factors than price alone which influence purchasing for many.

That said... Farish are extracting the Michael a little with the price of some of their older tooled DMUs.

[nobby]

its amazing how quickly the prices have risen over, so much so that if the guys at revolution trains were to do crowdfunding now for the Pendolino train i wonder how much it would be , and if (big if) Rapido decide to rerun them in a few years because of new liveries and or customer demand what price then would you be looking at . i will continue to support / buy model trains but i am getting much more choosy over the models i buy. (unless someone decides to make the class 375 electrostar  in the future)

[njee20]

The saving grace (depending on your outlook) is that second hand values are rising in line with new prices (unsurprisingly), and frequently surpass new values on 'high demand' items.

I'm happy taking a punt on some things as they can almost always be sold on for a minimal cost, or even a profit down the line.

[davidinyork]

People moan about the cost of the Hornby HST, but the GWR ones sold well, so people aren't that fussed clearly! There seem to be a noisy minority of people who complain about prices, and IMO it's more commonly other factors than price alone which influence purchasing for many.

Probably because it was a limited production run. None of the others they have done recently have sold quickly - they've all hung around in the shops for ages.

[Dr Al]

In the nicest possible sense Alan, what is your point?

Really, the point is why manufacturers aren't doing a little on tooled models to dampen the significant hikes - and particularly for the long term good of the hobby (and therefore their business). Admittedly, maybe this is less the place of N (though Farish N used to have cheap starter sets which no longer exist) and more OO, hence the examples, but still relevant as N has to attract new modellers, even if that's more likely to be from other scales.

Also, how sustainable are these price hikes is the other emerging point from others posts (wasn't so much my original point) - we see evidence already of folk being unable e.g. Bob above. In recent times we've seen the RRPs increase of really large levels - e.g. last year a Duchess RRP was £144ish, now it's £170 - a 15% rise in 1 year. Have our pensions, or wage risen that much? I'd guess not. Ok, costs are rising*, but given retailers are not allowed by Bachmann to discount arbitrarily, there is zero competition, these are the prices we are stuck with, and the key question is then: at what point do they start to become unsustainable. There's tinges that this is already the case for some as you can see on this thread - "I am getting much more choosy over the model I buy", "I have come to the conclusion that on my pension I wont ever be buying another brand new Farish or Dapol loco.", "Farish are extracting the Michael a little with the price of some of their older tooled DMUs".....

...even being able to afford these, I do find myself implicitly feeling the same... £25 for a Mk1 when I bought the same models a few years ago for £13 a pop? Glad I did!

But to return to the core point - it's the health and long term future of the hobby, which has to bring in new interest, that concerns me, and I just fear fewer will get into model railways if there aren't good priced items to lure them in and get them hooked (which we are!). Time will tell on that one.

Whilst one could argue it laudable for Dapol to drop the prices on a model once the tooling is amortised it's a pretty daft business model IMO. You have a market prepared to pay a price, why on earth would you not take a bigger margin?

It shifts the stock quick (which it did) and tempts those who otherwise wouldn't buy - I am example of this buying a new 45xx because it was cheap, and while I knew it wasn't a perfect loco, I was willing to accept that and improve myself at that price. I wouldn't have bought it otherwise if the price had been in line with other rises. So it's not necessarily a daft business model at all, as you may have a different and bigger market willing to buy a lesser price.

That said... Farish are extracting the Michael a little with the price of some of their older tooled DMUs.

Which ones?

Cheers,
Alan

*they must be getting pretty marginal now, as both Dapol and Hornby now have some of their production brought back to UK....

[Dr Al]

The saving grace (depending on your outlook) is that second hand values are rising in line with new prices (unsurprisingly), and frequently surpass new values on 'high demand' items.

I'm happy taking a punt on some things as they can almost always be sold on for a minimal cost, or even a profit down the line.

This is true, and it definitely helps if you are buying new. Though it does lead to a rise in speculative purchases - one wonders how many DCC Sound 40s will start reappearing for sale with a whack of a premium on them in the not too distant future - it's already happened with the Castles.

This is where I feel the manufacturer, and the secondhand buyer misses out - another example being Hornby/Arnold with their Pullman Belle - those have been selling with £150-200 premium on the original price! I'm sure those buying would much rather buy one new straight from Hornby with a warranty for the same or less!

Cheers,
Alan

[Karhedron]

One possible reason why they hike all products is price parity. Discounting older models may hamper the sales of new releases and thus increase the time it takes to amoritise new toolings. The last thing manufacturers want is for sales of old models to cannibalize those of new ones.

[njee20]

This is where I feel the manufacturer, and the secondhand buyer misses out - another example being Hornby/Arnold with their Pullman Belle - those have been selling with £150-200 premium on the original price! I'm sure those buying would much rather buy one new straight from Hornby with a warranty for the same or less!

I agree that it's frustrating the manufacturers can't react more quickly to models which clearly sell well. It's good to see Farish doing another run of JPAs, as they've been going for quite a premium online lately. Dapol reacted to the Mk3s, but it still took quite a while, and whilst some 86s hung around for months and got punted out for half price others (IC Swallow) were selling for double the original price. It's clearly a fickle market, and jugding those trends is hard, not least as they often seem to arise sometime after launch. I got my IC 86 and my Network Rail 37 heavily discounted, before demand suddenly rose, very strange.

In the nicest possible sense Alan, what is your point?

Really, the point is why manufacturers aren't doing a little on tooled models to dampen the significant hikes - and particularly for the long term good of the hobby (and therefore their business). Admittedly, maybe this is less the place of N (though Farish N used to have cheap starter sets which no longer exist) and more OO, hence the examples, but still relevant as N has to attract new modellers, even if that's more likely to be from other scales.

...

That said... Farish are extracting the Michael a little with the price of some of their older tooled DMUs.

Which ones?

I guess absorbing some of the costs of amortisation into price rises is reasonable, not necessarily a price cut in real terms, but an offset increase.

Re: overpriced MUs - the Cross Country 170. 2-car, no off the shelf DCC compatibility, no working lights. £175.

[Dr Al]

I agree that it's frustrating the manufacturers can't react more quickly to models which clearly sell well. It's good to see Farish doing another run of JPAs, as they've been going for quite a premium online lately. Dapol reacted to the Mk3s, but it still took quite a while, and whilst some 86s hung around for months and got punted out for half price others (IC Swallow) were selling for double the original price. It's clearly a fickle market, and jugding those trends is hard, not least as they often seem to arise sometime after launch. I got my IC 86 and my Network Rail 37 heavily discounted, before demand suddenly rose, very strange.

Dapol did the odd thing of not releasing the most popular liveries as normal release with their 86 - uttlerly strange - no BR Blue, only the C+M limited run, no IC executive, one IC swallow as you say that got hoovered up fairly fast, and no original Electric blue which was promised and supposedly they had the designs for the necessary tooling.

I too got the IC ones before they went to silly money, and the cheap other variants have given an ugly Freighliner donor that's half way to becoming an electric blue pre-flexicoil version. Ah, the joy of a scalpel blade and a pot of paint.....

Re: overpriced MUs - the Cross Country 170. 2-car, no off the shelf DCC compatibility, no working lights. £175.

This is a perfect example of my point in terms of tooling - an old split chassis model that's been around for ages (2005 ish?), done plenty of runs, has many many common components (virtually the entire chassis with 168, 158) with other models that have also had plenty of runs that will have shared the tooling cost.

Cheers,
Alan

[njee20]

I'm not necessarily sure they're the most popular liveries, although EWS and NSE were always slightly odd choices IMO.

I do agree on the 170 (hence raising it), although I wonder if Karhedron's point about pricing parity holds water. You can't increase the prices on half of your range as there's a perceived comparative value with other products. The SWT one (like Southern) was always a strange choice of model too given the distinct lack of complementary stock. Conveniently dragging us back on topic have we had definitive commitment the new releases of the 170 are still the exact same model, or is there a new chassis in there, I've seen both being reported, although perhaps confusion with the 00 new tooling.

I must say my LM 170 is a great runner, and took minutes to convert to DCC, probably easier than some of the fiddlier locos with solder tags frankly.