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Author Topic: DJ Models APT crowdfunding campaign  (Read 10316 times)

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Offline njee20

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Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
« Reply #120 on: May 20, 2018, 07:35:30 AM »
The Kato example is the obvious comparator, except of course it doesn’t have DCC or sound provision, both of which Dave has promised.

Offline NeMo

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Re: DJModels/Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
« Reply #121 on: May 20, 2018, 09:31:34 AM »
I’d be interested in the AC locos too, but I can just imagine how offering an 85 would prompt the “if it was one of the others I would have a couple” comments.
That's inevitable, although the 85 at least was numerous, long-lived, and continued to do important work until around 1990. Of course you could argue a refresh Farish 87 or 90 would be more useful to WCML modellers, the 85 would perhaps be the more interesting choice.

In any event, your entire point is rendered moot by the selection of the APT over any one of dozens of BR overhead electric multiple units that would have been immeasurably more useful -- classes 310 and 313 immediately springing to my mind.

Have we perhaps reached a point where a manufacturer's selection between "what will sell" and "what's modellers actually need" doesn't lead to the same choice?

Cheers, NeMo

Offline njee20

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Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
« Reply #122 on: May 20, 2018, 03:19:04 PM »
It goes without saying that few people buy what they need to truly recreate the Railway they choose to model, even outside the domain of ‘rule 1’. In reality we’d all need dozens of homogenous MUs for every freight, or ‘exciting’ train. We’d need 20 plain locos for every ‘special’ livery.

But that’s no fun, people want things that appeal. The APT is iconic. Like the HST or the Pendolino. Where it falls down over the former is a more limited geographical spread, and over the latter a more limited timeframe. I definitely think Dave will have a harder time getting sales than some other manufacturers too frankly.

Offline NeMo

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Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
« Reply #123 on: May 20, 2018, 03:34:32 PM »
It goes without saying that few people buy what they need to truly recreate the Railway they choose to model, even outside the domain of ‘rule 1’. In reality we’d all need dozens of homogenous MUs for every freight, or ‘exciting’ train. We’d need 20 plain locos for every ‘special’ livery.
Let me offer a counterpoint to the excellent and well-argued point you make above. In straightened times, when modellers have less money to spend, it's workhorses rather than lawn ornaments that the manufacturers should offer.

If someone produced, say, a Class 115 DMU, there'd be A LOT of modellers who'd say, "Well, I really do need one of those to finish off this layout". Whereas an APT is more likely to prompt something along the lines of, "Nice, but what am I going to do with it?"

The APT is iconic.
Iconic of what, is the question! By the only objective measurement that matters, sufficient engineering success that it warranted further development, it was a failure. Of course I know there was a political dimension to the APT story, but when all is said and done, it was a dead end, so far as British railway manufacturing went.

Cheers, NeMo

Offline njee20

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Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
« Reply #124 on: May 20, 2018, 04:14:34 PM »
We obviously model different periods, which makes comparisons a little tough. I wouldn’t know a 115 if it ran me over :) but yes, I do see what you mean.

Perhaps symbolic would be a better word than iconic for the APT. Whilst the train itself was a dead end it of course lent the tilting technology to many subsequent trains both domestic and continental. It was the future of rail travel in the UK, for a while!

I violently agree with you though that bread and butter models where people may conceivably buy multiples is probably a more viable prospect than those very expensive ‘icons’. I do try and seek the mundane too, I’ve got at least twenty 66s and only one ‘special’ livery.


Offline Snowwolflair

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Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
« Reply #125 on: May 20, 2018, 04:48:39 PM »
I'm always interested in the entertainment value of a model, as I like to exhibit at shows, and a 14 car APT in N, especially if it is a very rare model is a definite rule 1 purchase.

Go back and reread all the doubters comments about the Pendolino before it got produced, now almost completely forgotten, and almost the same comments as the APT is now getting.

I also take the view if i had to make one using Shapeways prints it would cost far more and not be as good.

Offline NeMo

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Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
« Reply #126 on: May 20, 2018, 06:34:01 PM »
Go back and reread all the doubters comments about the Pendolino before it got produced, now almost completely forgotten, and almost the same comments as the APT is now getting.

Yeah... nope. Not going to wade through literally over 2,500 messages to find the point you're trying to make here!  :goggleeyes:

Any chance of offering up your interpretation of what the issue was for the benefit of those of us as lazy as me?

I don't personally see how the APT (a short-lived, unsuccessful prototype) is closely comparable to the Pendolino (in service for 15+ years, dominate long-distance WCML services). I'll admit to a soft spot for the APT, but I have a hard time seeing it as anything other than a Rule 1, luxury purchase for modellers with deep pockets.

Cheers, NeMo

Offline Snowwolflair

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Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
« Reply #127 on: May 20, 2018, 07:00:40 PM »
Quote
I have a hard time seeing it as anything other than a Rule 1, luxury purchase for modelers with deep pockets.

Up the Revolution (trains)  :D

Offline njee20

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Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
« Reply #128 on: May 20, 2018, 07:09:45 PM »
There may have been nay-sayers on the Pendolino, but there were also a lot of orders, even if they never quite hit the 1000 mark.

This has been going 6 months now and has fewer than 100 orders. Clearly, whether it’s the model, the prices or the proposer, it’s not comparable.

Offline Snowwolflair

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Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
« Reply #129 on: May 20, 2018, 07:15:17 PM »
There may have been nay-sayers on the Pendolino, but there were also a lot of orders, even if they never quite hit the 1000 mark.

This has been going 6 months now and has fewer than 100 orders. Clearly, whether it’s the model, the prices or the proposer, it’s not comparable.

If they had not succeeded in getting the numbers for the larger scale model I would say you have a point.  I just don't think the N scale is ready for high budget products, or have layouts to run 14 car trains.

 

Offline njee20

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Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
« Reply #130 on: May 20, 2018, 07:22:53 PM »
Can’t comment on value but the high volume of 11-car Pendolinos again suggests that’s not true. Given APT trailers are shorter there can’t be much in the overall length. Take OO out of the equation, Pendolinos sold well, APTs haven’t.

As Dave’s looking at a ‘low-fat’ version which will hopefully tackle the price then we’ll see if it’s a goer or if the prototype or the proposer are the issue...

Offline Snowwolflair

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Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
« Reply #131 on: May 20, 2018, 07:27:07 PM »
There may have been nay-sayers on the Pendolino, but there were also a lot of orders, even if they never quite hit the 1000 mark.

This has been going 6 months now and has fewer than 100 orders. Clearly, whether it’s the model, the prices or the proposer, it’s not comparable.

If they had not succeeded in getting the numbers for the larger scale model I would say you have a point.  I just don't think the N scale is ready for high budget products, or have layouts to run 14 car trains.

I'm not sure it will ever be ready for high budget products. The 00 community is much larger than the N gauge community and therefore it only needs a very small percentage to want a model for it to be viable (whatever the cost)

I think the budget threshold is about £380 at the moment.  This is based on all singing and dancing sound chipped models, nelevators and Pendolino among others.   So Dave should aim at a running train in line with this price and those who want more should be able to add more bits up to the full train.

Offline njee20

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Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
« Reply #132 on: May 20, 2018, 07:32:12 PM »
The last batch of Pendolinos, the City of Birmingham ones, were £470 with sound, and sold in 2 days. The market is not all that price sensitive.

I can’t see Dave going below £600 for a 14-car unit. That would be a 30% reduction on his original listed price.

Offline Snowwolflair

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Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
« Reply #133 on: May 20, 2018, 07:39:19 PM »
The last batch of Pendolinos, the City of Birmingham ones, were £470 with sound, and sold in 2 days. The market is not all that price sensitive.

I can’t see Dave going below £600 for a 14-car unit. That would be a 30% reduction on his original listed price.

Neither do I but he might do a combination as follows,  (originally posted by me on RMweb)


"If the existing pre orders become combination pack orders to the same train already ordered then then the lesser individual packs can be added as additional order options.

So an existing 14 car order becomes a a+b+c+d+e pack order where a are the ends b is a power car c is coach set 1 d is cach set 2 and e is the second power car, or something like that. "

On this basis an a+b+c combination might come in under £500.

Offline njee20

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Re: Durham Trains of Stanley APT crowdfunding campaign
« Reply #134 on: May 20, 2018, 07:45:28 PM »
Well yes, I imagine a variant will, but most people seem to want 14-car ones, so it’s pretty moot.

He’s not yet confirmed what variants he’ll be doing or even a vague price for the reduced feature version, reposting your idea doesn’t make it reality ;)

 

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