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Author Topic: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale  (Read 16308 times)

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Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #75 on: January 25, 2018, 07:22:55 PM »
Peter

Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #76 on: January 26, 2018, 12:10:08 AM »

Hope this links works ...

Could trains from the depots Lyon and Noisy found coupled together, or did they strictly operate on different TEE routes (like Arbalète for Noisy and Mont-Cenis for Lyon)?

Many thanks for the link but it turns out it is not of any use as there are no model pictures yet, so actually the written description is more help.

My hunch is that the Noisy and Vaise TEE RGPs would not have met each other but I may be wrong. Not sure if this sort of operating detail has survived the test of time.

I have a small book dedicated to the RGPs so will have a look to see if I can answer any of the queries.

Incidentally for those not interested in the TEE version, the green examples ran only until 1972, when they were repainted into the yellow 'Turbotrain' livery.


.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 12:12:11 AM by Gordon »
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Offline woodbury22uk

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #77 on: January 26, 2018, 11:00:55 AM »
@Gordon

I seem to remember the green RGPs on both the Le Touquet (rail-air-rail) and Boulogne Hovercraft services.  They were rare on the hovercraft service which was normally Caravelles  and later turbotrains, so may just have been a substitute for a failed Caravelle.
Mike

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Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #78 on: January 26, 2018, 12:08:56 PM »

I seem to remember the green RGPs on both the Le Touquet (rail-air-rail) and Boulogne Hovercraft services. 


Definitely yellow RGPs:

some pictures here:http://www.marsaly.fr/fred/2016/04/

http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?train_id=La%20Fl%E8che%20d'Argent

info links:
http://www.cheminots.net/forum/topic/30406-autorail-x2051-budd-sujet-officiel/
Sometime Publicity Officer, N Gauge Society

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Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #79 on: January 29, 2018, 12:07:33 AM »
I looked through my source books, and I'm fairly happy that when originally allocated, Lyon Vaise and Noisy le Sec units would not have been found coupled together. Also, the Noisy le Sec allocation was not all that long-lived (1956 - 64).

Also to note that the Red RGPs stayed in red for quite a long time after the end of their use on TEE.

.
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Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #80 on: January 31, 2018, 11:07:03 AM »
In the book "TEE-Züge in Deutschland" it says that all but two TEE RGPs were allocated to Noisy-le-Sec for all TEE trains originating in Paris Est and Nord. Only X 2777 and 2778 were stationed in Lyon-Vaise and relocated to Noisy in 1960 after the TEE Mont-Cenis had switched to FS ALn.

Although I am not sure how reliable this info is: In the same book we can see X 2777 (or more precisely, the trailer XR 7777) in Düsseldorf as the Parsifal which was operating with RGPs at the same time as the Mont-Cenis (1957 - May 29, 1960).
Similar photo of XR 7777 as Parsifal in Cologne here:
http://www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/images/bildergalerie/39175.jpg

And here X 2778 in Paris (note the German VT 08 which came nowhere near Lyon) in a photo dated 07/1958:
http://www.cheminots.net/forum/topic/41559-depot-de-la-plaine/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-764070

X 2778 already shows the third headlight in 1958 in the above picture (if the date is correct). Photos of the RGPs with a third headlight are quite rare while still in TEE service. It seems most got it at a later date (without the TEE nose emblem). Surprising that even in 1959/60 photos in Germany the RGPs still only had two headlights although the third was introduced in 1957 (but not yet mandatory on main lines).

The only photos I could find of TEE RGPs with third headlights were of X 2778, and X 2774 in Basel (dated 1960). X 2774 is also the one seen in the Mikadotrain/REE announcement picture (photographed in Lyon-Vaise, I think?):
http://www.mikadotrain.fr/img/cms/img004.jpg

Maybe the two RGPs allocated to Lyon-Vaise were switched regularly? The Mont-Cenis route was shorter than the other SNCF TEE routes (300 km more every day for the Parsifal or Paris-Ruhr) but with the steepest grades, and the SNCF decided to exchange the trainsets at regular intervals to even out wear?
Peter

Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #81 on: January 31, 2018, 05:56:18 PM »
In the book "TEE-Züge in Deutschland" it says that all but two TEE RGPs were allocated to Noisy-le-Sec for all TEE trains originating in Paris Est and Nord. Only X 2777 and 2778 were stationed in Lyon-Vaise and relocated to Noisy in 1960 after the TEE Mont-Cenis had switched to FS ALn. Although I am not sure how reliable this info is: In the same book we can see X 2777 (or more precisely, the trailer XR 7777) in Düsseldorf as the Parsifal which was operating with RGPs at the same time as the Mont-Cenis (1957 - May 29, 1960).

Photos of the RGPs with a third headlight are quite rare while still in TEE service.

The only photos I could find of TEE RGPs with third headlights were of X 2778, and X 2774 in Basel (dated 1960).

Maybe the two RGPs allocated to Lyon-Vaise were switched regularly? The Mont-Cenis route was shorter than the other SNCF TEE routes (300 km more every day for the Parsifal or Paris-Ruhr) but with the steepest grades, and the SNCF decided to exchange the trainsets at regular intervals to even out wear?

The small book I have is not detailed enough to find what I hoped to find. I suspect the author decided it would take too long and be too complex to work out exactly what happened when.

However, the 'Materiel Moteur' SNCF book for 1958 agrees that 8 were allocated to Noisy and 2 to Vaise.

However the book does contain a photograph captioned as date 1964 (near Chantilly) of a TEE unit with TEE nose plate and third headlight.

BTW by 1970 all the red units were at Lyon Vaise or Marseille.
 

.
Sometime Publicity Officer, N Gauge Society

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Offline LeftToMyOwnDevices

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #82 on: February 03, 2018, 05:04:31 PM »

I seem to remember the green RGPs on both the Le Touquet (rail-air-rail) and Boulogne Hovercraft services. 


Definitely yellow RGPs:

some pictures here:http://www.marsaly.fr/fred/2016/04/

http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?train_id=La%20Fl%E8che%20d'Argent

info links:
http://www.cheminots.net/forum/topic/30406-autorail-x2051-budd-sujet-officiel/


Gordon,

Thank you for those links.
At the risk of drifting off at a wild tangent... :worried:

I remember seeing photos of a (French?) train at an airport, a long, long time ago, thinking I must have imagined it all. :confused1:
I mean actually at the airport, alongside an aeroplane - and not like the numerous 'Rail-Air' links around the world: LHR-Heathrow Express, CDG-RER Link, etc.

Now, wouldn't this make for an interesting N Gauge layout idea...?
People would say that it's too fanciful; it couldn't possibly be true... :D


Now, this is what I call cross-platform interchange... :)


I do also remember travelling on the (5-car?) Turbotrain, from Boulogne to Paris Nord. It seemed to take forever. Merci pour le Eurostar...! 8)

Now, I leave you folks to get back on topic. ;)

Charles.
"Underground, Overground: Our friends Electric"


Offline RailGooner

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #83 on: February 03, 2018, 10:17:05 PM »
Le Touquet Airport.
“We are indebted to those soldiers who served with courage and distinction to bring peace to Northern Ireland,” UK Defence Secretary Gavin Williamson said. “The welfare of our former service personnel is of the utmost importance.”

Per Ardua ad Astra | Mens Agitat Molem | Victoria Concordia Crescit | Utrinque Paratus | Caveat lector

Offline marco neri

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #84 on: February 04, 2018, 09:21:30 AM »
Hi,
For TEE fans/collector....
Here is the Aln 442 Nscale by an italian craftsman ...(LoCo that mens Lorenzo Colli) ..... I’ve ssen it running and  needs curves radii enough large

http://www.locomodels.it/index.php/aln-442-fs-scala-n.html

Greetings


Marco
...never turn you back on the ripper (judas priest)

Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #85 on: February 04, 2018, 03:42:51 PM »
Marco, as you have seen the LoCo ALn in reality, what do you think of the looks?

I had written about it on p. 50 of the "Last puchase" thread:

I didn't know that there were ALn 442-448 models other than the very expensive (and sold out) from Lemaco Lematec. The one from LoCo - Lorenzo Colli looks interesting - actually quite "cheap" :-\ for a handbuilt model (€ 390) although I am not sure about build quality.

The ALn has tempted me but I am still undecided. € 390 isn't too much for a handbuilt model but for an ugly lump of brass or resin it would be. The photos don't look bad but also show that the motor car is about a mm higher than the unpowered car, and where the sides/roof and nose are joined the lines are clearly visible on the 442 (but much better done on the 448).
Peter

Offline marco neri

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #86 on: February 04, 2018, 04:09:48 PM »
Hi Hiawata,
IMHO ....€ 390 for this model are not justified....as you wrote , just from pics  are visible defects..do imagine alive!....and running is not perfect!...
So, everyone it’s free to do everything...purchase or not purchase

Cheers

Marco
...never turn you back on the ripper (judas priest)

Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #87 on: February 04, 2018, 09:10:29 PM »
Well, I thought that a thread about the Trans Europ Express canʼt stay without the VT11 forever. :no: These trainsets have become synonymous with TEE in Germany, even though they were used in TEE service only until 1972.

When the TEE system started on June 2, 1957, the German trainsets werenʼt ready. As the four German TEE trains were not new but existing trains integrated into the TEE system, the DB continued to use the VT08 and even some pre-war SVT streamliners in TEE service.
The first train to switch to the VT11 was the Saphir (Dortmund–Ostend) on July 15, followed by the Helvetia (Hamburg–Zürich) on October 14, the Rhein–Main (Frankfurt–Amsterdam) on December 2, and finally the Paris–Ruhr (Paris–Dortmund) on December 23, 1957. The last three were made in N scale, as was the Parsifal (Paris–Hamburg) which was not one of the four 1957 trains operated by the DB. The Parsifal started with French RGP diesels but swapped trainsets with the Paris–Ruhr in 1960.
Next TEE after the Paris–Ruhr to lose the VT11 was the Helvetia already in April 1965, a few days after electrification to Hamburg was completed. The Rhein–Main followed in 1967, the Parsifal in 1968 (all replaced by DB 26.4m TEE coaches) and Paris–Ruhr in 1969 (replaced by SNCF Mistral 69 stock, edit: after using VT11 again since 1965). The last TEEs with VT11 were Saphir (1957–71), Diamant (Dortmund–Brussels, 1965–71) and Mediolanum (Munich–Milan, 1969–72).


Roco introduced the N scale VT11 in 1984 and has produced it in different TEE versions until 2004. After the Modelleisenbahn Holding bought Fleischmann and the Roco brand was phased out in N, a final, reworked version was released under the Fleischmann brand.

I have noticed that it is almost impossible to buy these trains on ebay. The Fleischmann versions rarely come up for sale and sell for high prices, and the Roco sets, while common, almost never contain the correct cars. More often than not cars have been swapped between the basic and add-on sets and sometimes, even when a seller has both sets for sale, the cars donʼt form the correct 7-car train. (It has happened to me, too!) :'(

The earliest version was released with the old Roco numbers 02167A (4-car basic set) and 02168A (3-car add-on). These numbers soon changed to 23005 and 23006 but the old style boxes, dark red with styrofoam tray, remained longer. Later, smaller orange and blue boxes with vac-form tray were used. The first release was named for the TEE Helvetia (the name is only displayed on the dining car in the add-on set). A second release was lettered as Parsifal.
There was also a technical change: The flywheel was enlarged and the floor opened so that the flywheel is visible. I think this was done before the Parsifal release 1993. On the early VT11 the smaller flywheel is enclosed and only a bulge can be seen.

Another release with finer tampoprinting followed around 1997, unfortunately again lettered as Helvetia. (Instead of producing two different runs of the Helvetia which used VT11 for less than eight years, Roco should have made the Saphir which had it from 1957 until 1971.) However, the newer release doesnʼt have a frame around the Helvetia name, so can be recognized. All these came in the orange and blue boxes with numbers 23005/06.



Roco 23100 TEE Rhein–Main

The final Roco TEE was set 23100 in 2003, lettered as Rhein–Main. For the first time the VT11 was released as a complete 7-car train (still in two separate boxes, with a clear plastic cover around them). I would recommend looking for the 23100 if you want to buy a Roco TEE, so you can be certain that the colours match, it has the finer printing, large flywheel and (hopefully) contains the correct seven cars.
In 2010 the last TEE was released as Fleischmann 741001 (741071 DCC with sound)+741002 as TEE Paris–Ruhr. These almost never come up for sale and achieve high prices. I think they sold poorly when new, with lots of older Rocos around for much less, and consequently are quite rare today. The Fleischmann VT11 was upgraded with LED lights, and the power car is electrically connected to its neighbouring compartment coach for better pick-up. (The catalogue description stated that the motor was moved to the dining car but this is wrong.)




When I see a VT11 in a magazine it usually is assembled in a wrong order, most often the doorless bar car in the centre (which actually is correct) and then all other cars with their vestibule ends facing the centre car. That way you always get a door and a doorless end together which looks nice – but itʼs not how the real TEE was arranged. The Roco instructions donʼt help much as the illustration is reversed and as some cars are different on both sides, the windows of the models never match up with the instructions. (Even the set 23100 contains the wrong illustration while the older Intercities 23007/08 and 23014/15 have correct illustrations which also could have been used for the TEE.) These two photos show the correctly assembled 7-car train from both sides.



Correct order from front to rear and right to left: Power car VT11.50 – compartment first VM11.51 (door away from power car) – dining car VM11.54 (with train name; door away from bar car) – bar car VM11.53 (no door; blanked out area on the same side as the dining car) – open first VM11.52 (door towards bar car) – VM11.51 (door towards power car) – VT11.50.

Reasons for this arrangement: The bar car also contained a 23-seat dining area and this was coupled to the 23-seat dining area of the dining car, without a vestibule between them. The other end of the bar car was a 17-seat open saloon (convertible for dining), and the door of the open car next to it served also as the entrance to the seating area of the bar car.
Up to three additional compartment cars could be inserted into a train (which happened quite early in the Helvetiaʼs case). The additional cars were inserted on one side only (up to four compartment cars on one side and just one on the other), so the dining and bar cars did not remain in the train centre. The additional cars were all inserted in the same orientation, so that the corridor side (and single seats in dining and open cars) was the same throughout the train. This arrangement made finding oneʼs seat again easier after visiting the dining car or bar :pint: on a train like the Helvetia that reversed direction twice within an hour during lunch and dinner times.
For the first ten years of operation all photos show the trainsets in exactly this configuration; from about 1967 it wasnʼt handled that strictly anymore and e.g. the open car could be found in a different position or a compartment car facing in the other direction.




Other versions were as a 1970s BR 601 Intercity (Roco 23014+23015 – 4+4 cars) and gas turbine BR 602 (23101 – 8 cars), 1980s BR 601 Alpen-See-Express tourist charter train (Fleischmann 741003 [741073 DCC with sound]+741004 – 4+3 cars, not shown), the red/white 1990 IC Max Liebermann of the East German DR (Roco 23007+23008 – 4+3 cars) and the blue/white ESG Blue Star TEE (23102+23103 – 4+4 cars). As most of them show the TEE emblem I will discuss them at a later time in a second part, and also show comparisons of some Roco TEE releases.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 07:25:03 AM by Hiawatha, Reason: postimage links restored »
Peter

Offline Gordon

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #88 on: March 10, 2018, 12:13:43 AM »

The small book I have is not detailed enough to find what I hoped to find. I suspect the author decided it would take too long and be too complex to work out exactly what happened when.

I've actually now had chance to take a longer look at my book on the RGPs and it may answer some questions, if anybody is still interested.

.
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Offline Hiawatha

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Re: TEE trains and their reproduction in N scale
« Reply #89 on: March 10, 2018, 07:24:20 PM »
Please do, I won't complain. :no:
Peter

 

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