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Author Topic: Suggestion for Revolution Trains - a Bullied 4 Sub or maybe a 4 Vep  (Read 2895 times)

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Offline gerry9253

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Could these run, literally?

Both ubiquitous throughout the Southern Region area. One for the ever popular transitional era and the other hated and loved in many colour schemes....

Gerry

Offline red_death

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Re: Suggestion for Revolution Trains - a Bullied 4 Sub or maybe a 4 Vep
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2016, 05:59:09 PM »
My initial thoughts are really questions! I would split them into separate projects rather than lump them together.

How long did they run for and when?
What liveries did they appear in?
How many different vehicles are there (ie that need tooling)? Doing something that has two driving cars that are the same and two trailers that are the same is considerably cheaper than 4 individual cars.
What variations are there and could they be easily incorporated into the tooling?
If they can't be easily tooled then which variation is likely to be most popular?

Then the two killer questions for any project - how many do you think can be sold and at what price!

I know Hornby did a VEP, but it wasn't exactly praised from the rooftops.

From my position of a bit of knowledge about SR EMUs I would have thought a VEP would be more likely than a 4 SUB, but I'm willing to be proved wrong!

Cheers, Mike



Offline johnlambert

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Re: Suggestion for Revolution Trains - a Bullied 4 Sub or maybe a 4 Vep
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2016, 01:38:07 PM »
Taking Mike's questions in turn for the 4VEP Class 423 having done some very quick research.

How long did they run for and when?
From 1967-2005 (38 years)

What liveries did they appear in?
BR Blue, BR Blue and Grey, Possibly BR 'Jaffa Cake', Network South East, Connex South Eastern, South West Trains, South Central (there may be more)

How many different vehicles are there (ie that need tooling)? Doing something that has two driving cars that are the same and two trailers that are the same is considerably cheaper than 4 individual cars.
It looks like 3 unique vehicles per 4-car set; DTCsoL, MBSO, TSO, DTCsoL.  Between 1988 and 1990 thge MBSO was rebuilt with a smaller luggage compartment and additional seating.

What variations are there and could they be easily incorporated into the tooling?
See above, it probably means tooling 5 bodies in order to offer both variants.

If they can't be easily tooled then which variation is likely to be most popular?
No idea, the numbers would favour the earlier variant as it was around for slightly longer.

Then the two killer questions for any project - how many do you think can be sold and at what price!
I would guess that the price would have to be in the region of 200-250 (thinking of at least 110 for the 'loco' and 30 each for the 'coaches') assuming 1 powered chassis in the 4-car set. 

I don't know how many you could sell, people did buy the Graham Farish Class 411 4CEP but it didn't strike me as selling out quickly.  Any idea how many 4CEPs were made, I'd guess that most of the people who bought one would be in the market for a 4VEP (I know I fit that category, but I may be unique).

Offline Karhedron

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Re: Suggestion for Revolution Trains - a Bullied 4 Sub or maybe a 4 Vep
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2016, 01:39:07 PM »
The trouble with 4-SUB units is that there were a lot of variations within the class, in fact the Maunsell and Bulleid versions bear little resemblance to each other. Some early 3-SUBs were strengthened into 4-SUBs with the insertion of newer-build trailer vehicles. So whilst the first versions of the SUBs appeared in 1941, they looked quite different from the last survivors that were withdrawn in 1983.

The 4-VEPs seem like a good choice on paper. From memory, the poor reception of the Hornby model was largely due to some serious errors with the bogies (which should never have made it out of the design room) and the filled-in motor coach (less of an issue in N gauge where modelers are more willing to accept a motor bogie occupying part of the brake coach).

4-VEPs worked alongside the Farish 4-CEPs and the forthcoming 319s in some areas which would be helpful. The normal formation was DTCsoL+MBSO+TSO+DTCsoL meaning that you can double up on the driving vehicles. The only possible difficulty is the NSE refurbishment which altered the window layout of the MBSO coach. This means that an extra body tooling would be required if you want to represent both BR and privatised versions.

EDIT - Ninja'd by johnlambert.  ;D
« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 01:50:24 PM by Karhedron »
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Offline Karhedron

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Re: Suggestion for Revolution Trains - a Bullied 4 Sub or maybe a 4 Vep
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2016, 01:49:16 PM »
I would suggest that the BR-built 4-EPBs might be a better option for suburban units. The formation was DMBSO-TSO-TSO-DMBSO so only 2 vehicle toolings are needed for a 4-car set. The 1980s refurbishment was largely internal IIRC so no retoolings would be required. They worked alongside the Farish 4-CEPs on the Kent lines and could also be seen alongside the 319s in NSE days.

The interesting thing is that once you have the 4-EPB, it opens the way to related vehicles. Add a DTS and you can produce the 2-EPB. Add a DTC and you have a 2-HAP. From the 2-HAP you could tool up a new motor to produce the 2H/205 DEMUs. If a 4-EPB cuold be made to pay for itself, then related follow-on  classes could be substantially cheaper.
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

ScottyStitch

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Re: Suggestion for Revolution Trains - a Bullied 4 Sub or maybe a 4 Vep
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2016, 02:10:34 PM »
I note with the 4-VEP, the introduction date is 1967, and I admit that I know very little about the southern EMUs.

However, would it make more sense to, initially at least, look at an EMU that also took in the green era as well. This would increase the potential customer numbers. Bear in mind that there is only one RTR southern first generation EMU on the market, the Farish 4-CEP. If attempting to grow the 3rd rail electric market, maybe it is better to look at a model that includes the transition era, all the way up to privatisation?. You would then have a whole raft of eras. Br Green, Br Blue, Br Blue and Grey, Sectorisation (NSE?), Privatisation........

If successful, then post transition only models could be looked at after that.

A further however; if we feel there is sufficient footfall for the VEP, then by all means fly with it.

Just my hap'ney worth.

The 4-SUB, based on those more knowledgable than me contributions, would appear to be problematic, in terms of tooling required, so maybe a poll for the 4VEP would be helpful?

Best

Scott


EDIT: 4-EPB as mentioned by @Karhedron would fall into the bracket I have suggested above, and I know that I would be interested in at least two sets to run alongside my three CEP sets. The VEPs, would be outwith the timescale for me so I don't think I'd purchase.

The only thing with the EPBs, I'd have thought, is that there were two types, SR origin and Mk1 origin?

« Last Edit: October 12, 2016, 02:17:25 PM by ScottyStitch »

Offline red_death

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Re: Suggestion for Revolution Trains - a Bullied 4 Sub or maybe a 4 Vep
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2016, 02:31:37 PM »
The bigger problem with the EPB etc is that Bachmann have already done the 2EPB and 2HAP in 4mm and it must surely only be a matter of time before they are shrunk down (I certainly hope so!).

Cheers, Mike



Offline Karhedron

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Re: Suggestion for Revolution Trains - a Bullied 4 Sub or maybe a 4 Vep
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2016, 02:33:58 PM »
The bigger problem with the EPB etc is that Bachmann have already done the 2EPB and 2HAP in 4mm and it must surely only be a matter of time before they are shrunk down (I certainly hope so!).
One would hope that would be the case but there are several enticing models that have been out for some years that show no signs of going through Barwell's shrink-ray.

Cough-City of Truro-Cough  :angel:
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

ScottyStitch

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Re: Suggestion for Revolution Trains - a Bullied 4 Sub or maybe a 4 Vep
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2016, 02:39:05 PM »
The bigger problem with the EPB etc is that Bachmann have already done the 2EPB and 2HAP in 4mm and it must surely only be a matter of time before they are shrunk down (I certainly hope so!).

Cheers, Mike

That's always the possibility, Mike, but so far they have shown a bit of reluctance to look further at southern electric in N.

There's always the hope that crowdfunding can kickstart (ouch!) RTR southern electrics. It could be argued that your Pendolino has done just that (or is on the cusp of) for AC electrics ?

Offline red_death

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Re: Suggestion for Revolution Trains - a Bullied 4 Sub or maybe a 4 Vep
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2016, 03:23:35 PM »
I would have no problem doing things which are complementary to Farish's units (or potential future units) ie like a SUB or VEP, but I don't see us either wanting to or being able to compete with Farish (or Dapol) on something that is easy for them to put into motion reasonably quickly.

Bachmann/Farish have so much potential (and have already done the necessary research whereas we would have to start from scratch) for a nice range of 3rd rail MUs eg EPB, HAP, MLV (and the 319).

If people are desperate for products that Farish could easily do then effort is much better spent demonstrating that there is a market demand (eg through a wishlist poll or expressions of interest) and presenting that evidence to someone in Farish/Dapol.

Cheers, Mike




Offline dodger

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Re: Suggestion for Revolution Trains - a Bullied 4 Sub or maybe a 4 Vep
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2016, 05:10:15 PM »
I would suggest that the BR-built 4-EPBs might be a better option for suburban units. The formation was DMBSO-TSO-TSO-DMBSO so only 2 vehicle toolings are needed for a 4-car set. The 1980s refurbishment was largely internal IIRC so no retoolings would be required. They worked alongside the Farish 4-CEPs on the Kent lines and could also be seen alongside the 319s in NSE days.

The interesting thing is that once you have the 4-EPB, it opens the way to related vehicles. Add a DTS and you can produce the 2-EPB. Add a DTC and you have a 2-HAP. From the 2-HAP you could tool up a new motor to produce the 2H/205 DEMUs. If a 4-EPB cuold be made to pay for itself, then related follow-on  classes could be substantially cheaper.

The BR 4EPB's were 1957 stock, the BR 2EPB's were 1951 stock, whilst the early 2HAP's were 1951 stock tha majority were 1957 stock. There were many differences between the 1951 and 1957 stock in the roof equipment and underframe equipment that would require different moldings for each series. The 1957 underframes for the 4EPB and 2HAP were similar to the 4CEP.

A vast number of 4SUB's used only two bodyshells, Motor Coach and Trailer Coach.

Unfortunately I am only interested in 2-car outer suburban units. This resulted in my 4CEP finding a new home.

Dodger

Offline Claude Dreyfus

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Re: Suggestion for Revolution Trains - a Bullied 4 Sub or maybe a 4 Vep
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2016, 05:12:16 PM »
As has been said,  the SUB units probably come in more flavours and varieties than any other unit; what with significant initial design differences and much chopping and changing of formation throughout their long careers.

The VEP is a good idea,  but my preference (for what it is worth) would be for the longer-lived class 421 (1964-2010). They are mark 1 based, and carried all passenger liveries in the South East and would be a better compliment to the CEP. The 3-CIGs also were some of the last slam-door stock; operating the Lymington branch until very recently.

Offline captainelectra

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Re: Suggestion for Revolution Trains - a Bullied 4 Sub or maybe a 4 Vep
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2016, 05:54:23 PM »
If you're looking at another RTR Southern Unit, may I suggest the Class 421 4-CIG as a subject - in it's favour are:

1) First ran in early 1960s in BR Green, so would go well with the Farish CEP

2) Lasted until the end of the Mk1 EMU Era, so carried BR Liveries, NSE and various TOC colours - plenty of options to choose from.

3) Has a lot of commonality with the 4-VEP below the solebar, so may make tooling this a lot cheaper

4) Ran all over the Southern Region

5) No major structural changes made during it's long career, other than the addition of a headlight in the 1980s.

6) Probably my top-selling EMU pack for many of the above reasons :)
Best Regards,
Adam Warr
Electra Rail
Peterborough, UK
http://www.electrarail.co.uk
Flick Site: http://www.flickr.com/photos/27017199@N07/

Offline Karhedron

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Re: Suggestion for Revolution Trains - a Bullied 4 Sub or maybe a 4 Vep
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2016, 07:01:05 PM »
The BR 4EPB's were 1957 stock, the BR 2EPB's were 1951 stock, whilst the early 2HAP's were 1951 stock tha majority were 1957 stock.


I was assuming BR-built stock throughout. There were plenty of BR-built 2-EPBs in the mid 50s,  5701-5779 (later numbered 416/2 and 416/4). The earlier 2-EPBs (416/1 and 416/3)were built to a Bulleid design and were not the units I had in mind.

Bulleid 2-EPB


BR 2-EPB
Well, that's just not good enough. Some fount of all knowledge you are!  :no:  ;)

Online Bob G

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Re: Suggestion for Revolution Trains - a Bullied 4 Sub or maybe a 4 Vep
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2016, 07:55:20 PM »
As a southern man, I'm voting with Captain Electra. Do the basic well-travelled long lived EMUs first. There are after all kits for the others.
However, from a commercial perspective, i'm not sure on this one.

And please don't get diverted from producing the Type B and Type A tanks!!!!!

Bob

 

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