Should we run prototypical trains?

[johnlambert]

As far as an exhibition layout is concerned:

1. If a train is to terminate at a station and the loco run around before heading back where is came from, is it better not to fit tail lamps, or to have one fitted at each end of the train. Both are wrong as far as the BR Rule Book is concerned but which is the lesser of two evils? I'm leaning towards fitting lamps to both ends.

I suspect that having a lamp at both ends looks slightly more realistic.  If you're standing behind the train you can't see the front and the incorrect lamp should be mostly hidden behind the loco anyway.  But no lamps is something understandable and forgivable, I think, given how hard it would be to follow prototypical practice.

2. Is it OK to have Blue-Ribbon quality models in the same train as Poole era models at an exhibition? I'd like to model a WCML that is made up of a Mk3 DVT, Mk3 buffet and Mk2 FO & TSO coaches. I have the passenger carriages as Poole era models (albeit upgraded with blackened wheels and interiors) but would have to run them with the much more modern Dapol DVT. Is this an acceptable compromise or would there be less grumbles from the public if I forked out for a rake of the new Farish Mk2Fs as and when they're available?


Are there any other modelling compromises that would be frowned upon by exhibition visitors?

Happy modelling.

Steven B.

I don't really exhibit my layout but I try not to mix simpler, older models with newer stuff as I've found that the resultant train doesn't always look right.  For some reason I've found that the early BR liveries work less well together when I tried to mix newer and older Graham Farish stock.  I tried  it with Chocolate and Cream Mk1s but eventually sold the old style ones to buy newer ones.

That said; I have an Intercity Mk1 rake made mostly of the new-style coaches but there's no new Intercity Mk1 buffet so I've had to use a Chinese-made old-style coach and it doesn't look too bad.  I think your Graham Farish coaches with extra detailing would look perfectly fine alongside the Dapol DVT.

[ScottyStitch]

As far as an exhibition layout is concerned:

1. If a train is to terminate at a station and the loco run around before heading back where is came from, is it better not to fit tail lamps, or to have one fitted at each end of the train. Both are wrong as far as the BR Rule Book is concerned but which is the lesser of two evils? I'm leaning towards fitting lamps to both ends.

I suspect that having a lamp at both ends looks slightly more realistic.  If you're standing behind the train you can't see the front and the incorrect lamp should be mostly hidden behind the loco anyway.  But no lamps is something understandable and forgivable, I think, given how hard it would be to follow prototypical practice.

2. Is it OK to have Blue-Ribbon quality models in the same train as Poole era models at an exhibition? I'd like to model a WCML that is made up of a Mk3 DVT, Mk3 buffet and Mk2 FO & TSO coaches. I have the passenger carriages as Poole era models (albeit upgraded with blackened wheels and interiors) but would have to run them with the much more modern Dapol DVT. Is this an acceptable compromise or would there be less grumbles from the public if I forked out for a rake of the new Farish Mk2Fs as and when they're available?


Are there any other modelling compromises that would be frowned upon by exhibition visitors?

Happy modelling.

Steven B.

I don't really exhibit my layout but I try not to mix simpler, older models with newer stuff as I've found that the resultant train doesn't always look right.  For some reason I've found that the early BR liveries work less well together when I tried to mix newer and older Graham Farish stock.  I tried  it with Chocolate and Cream Mk1s but eventually sold the old style ones to buy newer ones.

That said; I have an Intercity Mk1 rake made mostly of the new-style coaches but there's no new Intercity Mk1 buffet so I've had to use a Chinese-made old-style coach and it doesn't look too bad.  I think your Graham Farish coaches with extra detailing would look perfectly fine alongside the Dapol DVT.

I would agree with pretty much all of this.

Re the tail lamps, you don't say if you will be having them lit or not. If they are lit, it may look odd to an observer, there being a red glow between the locomotive and the train. If they are not lit, then I don't see a problem.

Re the mix of old and new stock, I think it would probably only be acceptable to the observer if the the old and new weren't mixed in the same train. Regardless of modelling level, consistency is the key, I think, so if they were in the same train, something would always jar.

[violets49]

As far as an exhibition layout is concerned:

1. If a train is to terminate at a station and the loco run around before heading back where is came from, is it better not to fit tail lamps, or to have one fitted at each end of the train. Both are wrong as far as the BR Rule Book is concerned but which is the lesser of two evils? I'm leaning towards fitting lamps to both ends.

2. Is it OK to have Blue-Ribbon quality models in the same train as Poole era models at an exhibition? I'd like to model a WCML that is made up of a Mk3 DVT, Mk3 buffet and Mk2 FO & TSO coaches. I have the passenger carriages as Poole era models (albeit upgraded with blackened wheels and interiors) but would have to run them with the much more modern Dapol DVT. Is this an acceptable compromise or would there be less grumbles from the public if I forked out for a rake of the new Farish Mk2Fs as and when they're available?


Are there any other modelling compromises that would be frowned upon by exhibition visitors?

Happy modelling.

Steven B.

I think the first question is down to practicalities. on the propotype, only one tail lamp should be displayed on a train but in N scale, changing lamp codes is really not practical. maybe in O Scale or above but OO and smaller the idea of being able to change the lamps is really not practical.

The Second question is 'Your railway your rules.' If it looks right to you then thats ok!

[paulprice]

I cant comment on my layout I run a train of elephants

[ScottyStitch]

I cant comment on my layout I run a train of elephants

Ah, you don't see many trunk routes modelled.......

[BaseBored]

There is a recurring theme about individuals needing to take more time to research history, prototype, correct operation for a particular geographical area, and accurate representation. I think that all of these things have their place, for some people, but by no means everyone.

If this hobby is like every other hobby on the planet, we should have everything from extreme accuracy to complete fantasy. That's human nature.

To put it another way if all I saw at exhibitions were totally accurate depictions of railways,run to strict timetables, where trains appeared once per day (low use branch line), I'd simply stop showing up at exhibitions. In short everything would be too homogeneous for my taste.

What I like seeing are the surprises, the fun stuff, the prototyical stuff, the odd one out, the artists impression and the 25 foot layout with trains longer than my house. I also like watching trains run round and round in circles. Heck isn't that the Gauge 1 mob at Warley? I think that's great fun to look at, as their trains huff and chuff their way around the track.

[D1042 Western Princess]

There will always be a level of "modellers licence" but I don't like to see say a blue & grey dmu on scene at the same time as a steam hauled train or a blue diesel pulling crimson & cream coaches.

I realise I'm a bit 'late' responding to this but have only just discovered the post. Apologies if others have made the same points already.
BR blue came in in 1966, indeed some experimental stock (XP64) was even earlier, while the 'steam age' didn't end until 1968, so it must have happened that Blue/Grey DMUs etc ran alongside steam worked trains, for a few years at least. Could a BR Blue diesel have hauled "blood and custard" coaches? Unlikely, but then again nothing is certain in the huge history of our railways.

For myself I like to try to keep things fairly 'accurate' although running a Class 14 (and 41 if we ever get such a thing) on a 1970 set layout could be construed as "wrong" from a strictly 'accurate' perspective. They are there simply to 'fill in the gaps', as it were, on a 90% Diesel Hydraulic powered layout.
I do like timetables and 'prototype' running where possible (probably a legacy of my near 30 years as a professional railwayman on BR, and FGW as it calls itself today).
Also train weights should be kept 'realistic' if possible - OK , a Class 22 from Dapol can haul 30 loaded wagons up a 1/50 incline, but the real thing couldn't, for example.
It would need either a banking engine or a Class 42/52 on the front.
That kind of thing is what I mean by 'realistic'.
As ever these are just my opinions. We all have our own, and long may that continue.

[D1042 Western Princess]

Two Deltics double heading a five coach train was the most way out one I saw.

Maybe one had failed - diesel electrics you know - very unreliable! 

[railsquid]

There will always be a level of "modellers licence" but I don't like to see say a blue & grey dmu on scene at the same time as a steam hauled train or a blue diesel pulling crimson & cream coaches.

I realise I'm a bit 'late' responding to this but have only just discovered the post. Apologies if others have made the same points already.
BR blue came in in 1966, indeed some experimental stock (XP64) was even earlier, while the 'steam age' didn't end until 1968, so it must have happened that Blue/Grey DMUs etc ran alongside steam worked trains, for a few years at least.

As far as I know (and I may well be wrong so happy to be corrected) DMUs and EMUs were initially painted all-over blue and didn't change to blue/grey until well into the 1970s (and in some cases much later).

[Sprintex]

Quote from Wikipedia:

"Originally, multiple units were also painted in all over Rail Blue, however the blue and grey coaching stock livery was eventually also applied to all gangwayed DMUs, EMUs and DEMUs from about 1980 onwards until the introduction of the new Sector liveries in the mid-1980s. "

So it seems blue-grey coaching stock would be OK but not multiple units. I know it isn't the most reliable source though


Paul

[Karhedron]

BR blue came in in 1966, indeed some experimental stock (XP64) was even earlier, while the 'steam age' didn't end until 1968, so it must have happened that Blue/Grey DMUs etc ran alongside steam worked trains, for a few years at least. Could a BR Blue diesel have hauled "blood and custard" coaches? Unlikely, but then again nothing is certain in the huge history of our railways.

BR blue was actually introduced in 1965. This photo of the Granite City railtour in 1966 shows 60836 heading a mixed rake of Maroon and Blue/grey coaches. I am pretty sure some DMUs would have received plain blue in the mid 60s and operated alongside steam.



I think that Crimson and Cream had gone by the early 60s so it is unlikely that blue diesels ever hauled them outside of preservation.

[johnlambert]

There will always be a level of "modellers licence" but I don't like to see say a blue & grey dmu on scene at the same time as a steam hauled train or a blue diesel pulling crimson & cream coaches.

I realise I'm a bit 'late' responding to this but have only just discovered the post. Apologies if others have made the same points already.
BR blue came in in 1966, indeed some experimental stock (XP64) was even earlier, while the 'steam age' didn't end until 1968, so it must have happened that Blue/Grey DMUs etc ran alongside steam worked trains, for a few years at least.

As far as I know (and I may well be wrong so happy to be corrected) DMUs and EMUs were initially painted all-over blue and didn't change to blue/grey until well into the 1970s (and in some cases much later).

I think you're right, railsquid.  You could, and did, see steam locos alongside blue and grey coaching stock.  But multiple units would generally have been all over blue (or green) at the time.

My preference is to run trains that are at least plausible for the scene I'm trying to create.  That might mean mixing stock from two adjacent eras but, unless I've seen evidence of it, probably not running stock from three eras at the same time.  For example I have GWR Rail Cars in GWR, Crimson/Cream and BR Green; I wouldn't run the GWR one in the same roster as the green one but the crimson/cream one might appear along side either of the others.

I hope that makes sense and I'm not saying that anyone else should follow my 'rules'.

[D1042 Western Princess]

BR blue came in in 1966, indeed some experimental stock (XP64) was even earlier, while the 'steam age' didn't end until 1968, so it must have happened that Blue/Grey DMUs etc ran alongside steam worked trains, for a few years at least. Could a BR Blue diesel have hauled "blood and custard" coaches? Unlikely, but then again nothing is certain in the huge history of our railways.

BR blue was actually introduced in 1965. This photo of the Granite City railtour in 1966 shows 60836 heading a mixed rake of Maroon and Blue/grey coaches. I am pretty sure some DMUs would have received plain blue in the mid 60s and operated alongside steam.



I think that Crimson and Cream had gone by the early 60s so it is unlikely that blue diesels ever hauled them outside of preservation.

I stand corrected; thank you. However, the Glasgow suburban electrics were an all over blue as early as 1962 (I think) so certainly would have run alongside steam on a daily basis.

[CaleyDave]

As far as I know (and I may well be wrong so happy to be corrected) DMUs and EMUs were initially painted all-over blue and didn't change to blue/grey until well into the 1970s (and in some cases much later).

Rail Blue was intended to be applied in a similar way as Crimson (Not Maroon) was ie Crimson Suburban/non corridor, Crimson and cream corridor stock.
Just blue was applied to most multiple units, The few remaining Suburban MK1s and non passenger stock.
Blue and White to all other passenger stock.
Some DMU's Received Blue and White from the beginning such as the Edinburgh to Glasgow Intercity Units (http://www.railcar.co.uk/images/3192) Whilst the Ayrshire coast Class 126 went rail blue. (http://www.railcar.co.uk/images/2185)

I stand corrected; thank you. However, the Glasgow suburban electrics were an all over blue as early as 1962 (I think) so certainly would have run alongside steam on a daily basis.

The early electrics were painted in Light Electric or Caledonian Blue but were later repainted into Rail Blue

[martyn]

Were not the original ac locos for the WCML and the Glasgow suburban outshopped in what was called at the time 'Electric blue', not BR standard blue? Memory-and photos-seem to suggest it was a lighter shade than BR blue.
I can't find my written references for this, for the moment.
Steam and BR blue coaches were relatively common in the areas where steam still remained at the time-see the many photos taken in the last two or three years of steam on the LMR, for instance.
My own feeling for running on your own layout is Rule 1-whatever takes your fancy; but I do think that exhibition layouts should be run where at least the loco and the train it is hauling is the same period/era.
Martyn