English

Started by terrysoham, August 26, 2016, 09:34:54 PM

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Newportnobby

Quote from: Chetcombe on August 27, 2016, 09:12:08 PM
Quote from: newportnobby on August 27, 2016, 08:35:16 PM
I gave up on English as it is wrote (thank you Ernie Wise) long ago as, basically, the language has gone to the dogs in my opinion. I had to laugh at the TV the other morning when they were talking about GCSE results and one girl was yelling "I got a A in English!" She obviously bribed someone.
@Chetcombe
Now to get really serious, and I apologise for using Chetcombe as an example here but consider taking a little extra time to read anything written and spot all the unnecessary 'that' words used.

Quote from: Chetcombe on August 27, 2016, 05:57:52 PM

I am guessing though that the grammatical errors are the use of 'an' before a word beginning with a consonant and the use of the quotation marks.

Removal of that 'that' changes nothing but reduces the sentence by a word. I have to say I have read some paperback fiction where the book could actually have been several pages shorter if all the surplus 'thats' had been edited out.

I knew I had set myself up with this post :D

At least you didn't type "I knew that I had set myself up......." :)

njee20

Quote from: jpendle on August 26, 2016, 10:11:27 PM
I think the use of 'an' in front of 'En Gauge' sic, is appropriate as that is how one should say it in spoken English.

I suppose the other error could be if you're worried about the use of  'diesel' as a noun rather than as an adjective.

I assume that you would prefer,

"How to weather a N Gauge Diesel Locomotive"

Let battle commence  :D

John P

No reason to capitalise "Gauge", "Diesel" or "Locomotive" ;)

I also have no issues with that headline, as someone who's as much of a grammar Nazi as anyone!

I am still reeling from the fact that 'figuratively' is now an accepted use of "literally" though. "I literally died of embarrassment" is now deemed correct. God help us.

Newportnobby

Quote from: njee20 on August 28, 2016, 09:40:19 AM

I am still reeling from the fact that 'figuratively' is now an accepted use of "literally" though. "I literally died of embarrassment" is now deemed correct. God help us.

When did that occur? The two are polar opposites! :censored:

NeMo

Quote from: njee20 on August 28, 2016, 09:40:19 AM
Quote from: jpendle on August 26, 2016, 10:11:27 PM
I assume that you would prefer,
"How to weather a N Gauge Diesel Locomotive"
No reason to capitalise "Gauge", "Diesel" or "Locomotive" ;)

Actually, if you're titling something, then title case is most likely to be used. This capitalises all words except certain short words (things like it, of, etc.). In addition, since the letter 'N' is pronounced with a vowel at the front, like "en", you'd use 'an' rather than 'a'. It's the pronunciation rather than the spelling that determines an or a, contrary to the superficial rule we're all told in school. Hence "an hotel" being correct, as is "a UFO", despite the one beginning with a consonant and the other a vowel.

So in this case, the correct version would be:

How to Weather an N Gauge Diesel Locomotive

Cheers, NeMo

PS. There are no hard-and-fast rules for titling case, and it depends a bit on the editor of the publication in question.
(Former NGS Journal Editor)

njee20

I did think of suggesting that "weathering" also needed a capital, was wrong either way! :)

kirky

Quote from: mr bachmann on August 27, 2016, 03:03:40 PM
now I'm wondering how many 3 to 5 year olds model N scale/gauge ???

The OP said he volunteered helping Year One children. Year One for children in England, where the OP volunteers, is for children who are five and have their sixth birthday in that academic year.
Having said that, worrying about grammatical inconsistencies is in my opinion a subject for discussion at a much later stage in schooling. Learning to love words, in whatever form is much more important and arguing about these kinds of debatable points is a sure turn off for most young children.
The setting in which I teach is geared towards celebrating communication at whatever level the children can achieve.

Cheers
Kirky
Northallerton will make its next public appearance will be at Perth model railway show https://smet.org.uk/show/layouts/
June 24/25 2023.

Layout: Northallerton: http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=1671.msg16930#msg16930

www.northallertonngauge.co.uk

Cleveland Model Railway club website: www.clevelandmrc.club

oscar

#21
 
Quote

Actually, if you're titling something, then title case is most likely to be used. This capitalises all words except certain short words (things like it, of, etc.). In addition, since the letter 'N' is pronounced with a vowel at the front, like "en", you'd use 'an' rather than 'a'. It's the pronunciation rather than the spelling that determines an or a, contrary to the superficial rule we're all told in school. Hence "an hotel" being correct, as is "a UFO", despite the one beginning with a consonant and the other a vowel.

So in this case, the correct version would be:

How to Weather an N Gauge Diesel Locomotive

Cheers, NeMo

PS. There are no hard-and-fast rules for titling case, and it depends a bit on the editor of the publication in question.

Go to the top of the class, sir! :claphappy:

NeMo

Quote from: oscar on August 28, 2016, 12:06:38 PM
Go to the top of the class, sir! :claphappy:

I'm a teacher -- though not an English teacher -- so get to stand at the front of the class anyway!!!

Cheers, NeMo (but yes, you can call me Sir!)
(Former NGS Journal Editor)

kirky

Quote from: NeMo on August 28, 2016, 12:55:29 PM
Quote from: oscar on August 28, 2016, 12:06:38 PM
Go to the top of the class, sir! :claphappy:

I'm a teacher -- though not an English teacher -- so get to stand at the front of the class anyway!!!

Cheers, NeMo (but yes, you can call me Sir!)
I am also a teacher, and I'm English, but not an English teacher.  :confused2: :confused2: :confused2:

cheers
Kirky
Northallerton will make its next public appearance will be at Perth model railway show https://smet.org.uk/show/layouts/
June 24/25 2023.

Layout: Northallerton: http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=1671.msg16930#msg16930

www.northallertonngauge.co.uk

Cleveland Model Railway club website: www.clevelandmrc.club

Jon898

Quote from: NeMo on August 28, 2016, 10:28:08 AM
...It's the pronunciation rather than the spelling that determines an or a, contrary to the superficial rule we're all told in school. Hence "an hotel" being correct, as is "a UFO", despite the one beginning with a consonant and the other a vowel.


Yikes...when did "hotel" come to be pronounced "otel" thus justifying the use of the article "an"? Has the demise of Received Pronunciation of Standard English now become so complete that the letter "h" has disappeared from the spoken word?  I've seen it become common to use "an historic" in a misguided/inverted attempt to sound "posh" on this side of the Atlantic, but "an hotel" is still mercifully rare even here in the former colonies.

Remember the scene in the musical adaptation of Shaw's Pygmalion where Eliza Doolittle is urged to say "In Hertfordshire, Herefordshire and Hampshire, hurricanes hardly ever happen" instead of her native "In ertfordshire, erefordshire and ampshire, urricanes ardly hever appen".

Probably a clearer example of the use of "an" instead of "a" before a word that starts with "h" would be to say that something was "an honest effort to explain the issue" since I doubt anyone would pronounce the "h" in that word.

Jon

P.S. I'm still trying to shake the RP so that I'm understood over here...  I also suffer daily from being married to a proofreader/copyeditor; proofreading menus continues, but I think I've finally got her to admit that changing "bleu cheese" to "blue cheese" is a lost cause.

NeMo

Correct pronunciation of "hotel" used to drop the h somewhat, so it sounded more like the French word. So yes, you would properly say something like, "We need to find an hotel before it gets too late". I would bet money on words like "honest" and "honour" having been pronounced with the hard aitch sound in the Early modern era. But I don't know for sure.

This is completely separate from the tendency to drop the h in some dialects of English. So if you can channel your internal Dick Van Dyke and say something along the lines of "'Ere you go luv" then you're dropping the h for a completely different reason. The example with 'hotel' is probably an affectation, rather like the British English spelling of 'colour' and 'honour' compared to the older versions of those words as preserved in American English. But dropping aitches is something else entirely, and predominantly a class-based phenomenon rather than an attempt to sound sophisticated.

This is absolutely the point Shaw is making in your example, and he further argues, via Prof. Higgins, that as soon as an Englishman starts talking, his listeners start pigeonholing him in terms of class. Contrast that with American English which is much more regional than class-based. Obviously we have regional accents and dialects too, but they're transcended by class. So within the lowland Scots accents, you get a whole range, including the rather affected Morningside (a sort of middle class Edinburgh) accent that's the butt of so many jokes there.

Cheers, NeMo

Quote from: Jon898 on August 28, 2016, 01:44:05 PM
Quote from: NeMo on August 28, 2016, 10:28:08 AM
...It's the pronunciation rather than the spelling that determines an or a, contrary to the superficial rule we're all told in school. Hence "an hotel" being correct, as is "a UFO", despite the one beginning with a consonant and the other a vowel.


Yikes...when did "hotel" come to be pronounced "otel" thus justifying the use of the article "an"? Has the demise of Received Pronunciation of Standard English now become so complete that the letter "h" has disappeared from the spoken word?  I've seen it become common to use "an historic" in a misguided/inverted attempt to sound "posh" on this side of the Atlantic, but "an hotel" is still mercifully rare even here in the former colonies.

Remember the scene in the musical adaptation of Shaw's Pygmalion where Eliza Doolittle is urged to say "In Hertfordshire, Herefordshire and Hampshire, hurricanes hardly ever happen" instead of her native "In ertfordshire, erefordshire and ampshire, urricanes ardly hever appen".

Probably a clearer example of the use of "an" instead of "a" before a word that starts with "h" would be to say that something was "an honest effort to explain the issue" since I doubt anyone would pronounce the "h" in that word.

Jon

P.S. I'm still trying to shake the RP so that I'm understood over here...  I also suffer daily from being married to a proofreader/copyeditor; proofreading menus continues, but I think I've finally got her to admit that changing "bleu cheese" to "blue cheese" is a lost cause.
(Former NGS Journal Editor)

javlinfaw7

#26
In Glasgow we have the equivalent of Morningside in Kelvinside also the but of much local humour.



[admin]Fixed your link as .be links dont work as direct clicks...[/admin]

oscar

#27
The aitch was always silent in hotel, thus demanding an an, not an a, before it!  :bounce:

A quirk of our beautiful language.   :)

Jon898

Quote from: oscar on August 31, 2016, 09:23:50 AM
The aitch was always silent in hotel, thus demanding an an, not an a, before it!  :bounce:

A quirk of our beautiful language.   :)

Actually it used to be a silent "h" back in the 19th century when the word was imported into general use in its current meaning from the French.  The French (as did many latin-based languages) in turn had taken the word from the Latin hospes, dropping the "s" and replacing it with the circumflex accent.  It has since migrated to a sounded "h" as can be heard here: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronunciation/english/hotel , hence my surprise that there is an implication that the "h" is not sounded now.

Jon

Newportnobby

Quote from: oscar on August 31, 2016, 09:23:50 AM
The aitch was always silent in hotel, thus demanding an an, not an a, before it!  :bounce:

A quirk of our beautiful language.   :)

Quote from: newportnobby on August 27, 2016, 08:35:16 PM
I gave up on English as it is wrote (thank you Ernie Wise) long ago as, basically, the language has gone to the dogs in my opinion. I had to laugh at the TV the other morning when they were talking about GCSE results and one girl was yelling "I got a A in English!" She obviously bribed someone.


Yet so often you see quite prominent people on TV mangling their vocabulary because they try put an 'a' in front of a word beginning with a vowel such as to say I boiled a egg. It's pathetic to see.
'To' is not used anymore it seems - it's now tuh, and gunna has replaced going to.
I find myself listening to the yoof of today and just trying to count the number of 'likes' spoken rather than what they are trying to get across. Those last two words are being abused now "I'm gonna get across this" ::)

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