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Author Topic: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains  (Read 19989 times)

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Offline Ben A

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Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #75 on: November 09, 2015, 11:25:28 PM »

Hi Mark,

Actually you;'re right about Model Rail Scotland.  We did chat about this but unfortunately I don't think either of us is going to be there to actively "push" the model and so in some ways it is a moot point.

AS Mike says, we can always find reasons to put off a deadline but I think we have to be a little ruthless here - if a model doesn't fly, it doesn't fly and at least it's just cost us a few quid for leaflets and a bit of time, rather than thousands in unwanted tooling!

Having said that, I am struggling to believe there aren't enough modellers out there who already have or like the idea of a small Scottish layout in the 60s to shift 1200 of these models!  I am hoping that at Warley we will reach a lot of people who won't know about the project, and with the TEAs and Pendolinos showing clear progress perhaps they will be a little more inclined to support the scheme.

But I do also think there is a significant proportion of the market that just doesn't "get" it, and thinks they'll be able to have a look at these when they come out and then pick one up.  They might, of course, but only off ebay!

cheers

Ben A.



Offline JasonBz

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Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #76 on: November 09, 2015, 11:54:35 PM »
I dont know if it had been brought up in this thread, or others, but there has always seemed to be the idea that "Scottish only" stuff doesnt sell very well - I have no idea why that may be as it is, but it is sort of received wisdom...

Offline Ben A

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Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #77 on: November 10, 2015, 02:45:25 PM »
Hi Jason,

I have never heard that one before!

And it doesn't explain why the (Scottish) 320 unit is doing OK in our other project...

But maybe you're right.  Either way, we will do our best to get a few more interested at Warley and see how we go!

Earlier in the thread I uploaded a printable A4 poster.  Here is an updated version with the deadline::



And this is a pdf which will probably print better:

(Sorry, but you are not allowed to access the gallery)

If you're a member of a Club or Society with other N Gauge modellers (or Scottish enthusiasts, come to that!) please download it and print it for others in the club to see.

cheers

Ben A.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 03:00:33 PM by Ben A »



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Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #78 on: November 10, 2015, 03:18:51 PM »
Hi Jason,

I have never heard that one before!

And it doesn't explain why the (Scottish) 320 unit is doing OK in our other project...

This is the only reference I recall about Scottish locos being slow sellers.

Meanwhile here's an NBR-built loco I already own:

Takahachikawa - Japanese and other trains

Birmingham Knotmore Street - (ex) GWR mainline through the Midlands

Offline NeMo

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Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #79 on: November 10, 2015, 03:21:20 PM »
Reminds me of the old adage that "overhead electrics don't sell" that everyone complains about... yet actually seems to be true (for the most part). We're told the Farish 'Desiro' didn't sell, the Dapol 86 didn't sell, and the Farish 87 is definitely the unloved stepchild of their range. So much as I'd personally love to be able to buy an EM1 DC electric or Class 81 AC electric, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

The 'Pendolino' project is, of course, the exception, and the Class 320/321 project sounds promising.

Cheers, NeMo

I dont know if it had been brought up in this thread, or others, but there has always seemed to be the idea that "Scottish only" stuff doesnt sell very well - I have no idea why that may be as it is, but it is sort of received wisdom...

Offline red_death

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Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #80 on: November 10, 2015, 03:51:46 PM »
Reminds me of the old adage that "overhead electrics don't sell" that everyone complains about... yet actually seems to be true (for the most part). We're told the Farish 'Desiro' didn't sell, the Dapol 86 didn't sell, and the Farish 87 is definitely the unloved stepchild of their range. So much as I'd personally love to be able to buy an EM1 DC electric or Class 81 AC electric, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I'd be very wary of repeating "perceived wisdom" - in many cases it just isn't true (or at least not without knowing the context).

Farish 87 - if it doesn't sell why did Farish keep releasing production runs of it?

Dapol 86 - it may not have sold as well as some others but how many of the models are still easily available? How many were produced etc.

The Desiro is pretty obvious in that lovely model though it is there isn't a huge amount to run with it! Pendolino or 321 anyone  :D

We shouldn't overplay positives, but equally I don't think that we need to be quite so tough on ourselves at times.

Cheers, Mike



Offline NeMo

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Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #81 on: November 10, 2015, 05:10:15 PM »
I don't disagree Mike. Merely making the connection between what we're told about electric locos and EMUs and what we're told about Scottish prototypes. The 'Pendolino' kickstarter has perhaps revealed that the AC electric scene isn't as bleak as the manufacturers suggest, and maybe the problem was them choosing the wrong prototypes -- though surely the Dapol 86 should have been a guaranteed bestseller if people wanted AC layouts.

I do agree that the Farish 350 is a lovely model. Probably my favourite model multiple unit yet made. I'm looking forward to having a 321 to run alongside it. These two trains are the ones I go to work on, so they're definitely "Rule No. 1" purchases. Just can't decide on which livery -- NSE, Silverlink or London Midland!

As for the Class 21/29, am I correct in believing the 29s never ran out of London, and that it was only the 21s that did so?

Cheers, NeMo

Reminds me of the old adage that "overhead electrics don't sell" that everyone complains about... yet actually seems to be true (for the most part). We're told the Farish 'Desiro' didn't sell, the Dapol 86 didn't sell, and the Farish 87 is definitely the unloved stepchild of their range. So much as I'd personally love to be able to buy an EM1 DC electric or Class 81 AC electric, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I'd be very wary of repeating "perceived wisdom" - in many cases it just isn't true (or at least not without knowing the context).

Farish 87 - if it doesn't sell why did Farish keep releasing production runs of it?

Dapol 86 - it may not have sold as well as some others but how many of the models are still easily available? How many were produced etc.

The Desiro is pretty obvious in that lovely model though it is there isn't a huge amount to run with it! Pendolino or 321 anyone  :D

We shouldn't overplay positives, but equally I don't think that we need to be quite so tough on ourselves at times.

Cheers, Mike

Offline Ben A

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Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #82 on: November 10, 2015, 05:43:02 PM »

Hi NeMo,

Yes, all the locomotives started out as Class 21 (or rather, North Briitsh Type 2) when they were built.

The first 38 were allocated to the Easter Region and worked from Kings Cross and Liverpooll St out as far as Norwich and Peterborough.

The remainder were assigned from the start to Scotland.

By 1961 all had been moved to Scotland.

Then, in the mid 1960s, 20 were re-engined in an effort to improve the class's atrocious reliability.  The re-engined locos had an additional bodyside grille, different roof details and, with one exception, a four-character headcode panel.

These 20 were much improved and lasted in service until 1971.  I think they were withdrawn because they were non-standard, not because they were useless.  The remaining 21s were all withdrawn by 1967 I think.

It's annoying - if even a single 21 had lasted through to the end it would have made the choice far simpler.  Similarly, if one of either type had been preserved that would've helped.

As it is I can readily understand that if you're modelling pre-1963 then it's a 21 you want, or if you're modelling post 1967 then it's the 29.

At the moment the 29 is out in front.

What I would say is that either way the chassis is the same; and for the enthusiast (or an enterprising kit maker) converting one to the other could be as simple as a couple of brass etches and a partial respray.  Or a TPM-style resin body that simply swaps out, using the same glazing units.

Having said that, if it doesn't reach the 1200 expressions of interest but gets to, say, 400 then that could be a significant market for an enterprising kit manufacturer using a longer chassis block, resin bodyshell and bogie sideframes to convert the existing Class 22.  However, that would probably cost around 50 plus the cost of the Class 22 and still need building and painting, whereas our loco is likely to be around 100.

cheers

Ben A.



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Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #83 on: November 10, 2015, 09:37:08 PM »
For what it's worth, I've been very active on facebook spreading the word on a few Scottish based railway groups, namely:

Scottish Railways Group
The Official Trains of Scotland Group
Inverness Motive Power Depot Group
and Class 21/29 Appreciation Group

Also I've raised awareness on the following:
N-Gauge Layouts While Being Built Group
N-Gauge Model Railways Buy, Sell and Swap

I've also sent leaflets to Scottish and East Anglian/Cambridgeshire/etc. model clubs

It won't be for the lack of effort, that's for sure!

Offline Portpatrick

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Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #84 on: November 10, 2015, 09:55:58 PM »
Good one Scotty

I guess if the end result of all this is that we do only get the 29, I would certainly have a green SYP one, but my Langley 21 on a 25/3 chassis will have to soldier on for a while.

Offline Rabbitaway

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Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #85 on: November 10, 2015, 09:57:58 PM »
Ben

I have expressed interest in a 21 but more than happy to take a 29 if it is more popular

Hope the model makes the number of pladges required as this loco has always been one I would like, although a bit of a challenge at this stage

As a matter of interest how well did the old Hornby 00 model sell as this may be an indication of demand?




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Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #86 on: November 10, 2015, 10:10:47 PM »
Good one Scotty

I guess if the end result of all this is that we do only get the 29, I would certainly have a green SYP one, but my Langley 21 on a 25/3 chassis will have to soldier on for a while.

Alas this is where I fid my dilemma.

My existing collection of motive power revolves around my chosen period of 1962-64. 64 is the cut off due to the fact that I wanted to run Princess Coronations which weren't in service after that year. Therefore, if only the 29 is funded (if either of them at all), then this version becomes a rather far fetched 'Rule 1', since the first one was converted in '66. This is the reason I've resisted buying class 37s, as they weren't in Scotland until well after 'my' period. ditto pre-order of the new class 50.

On top of all that I also think the 21s looked much better than the 29s with their headcode boxes.

It could all well be moot and if the only the 29 is funded, then I certainly shan't be complaining because it's better than nothing.

Ramble over.....

Offline Ben A

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Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #87 on: November 10, 2015, 10:29:23 PM »
Hi there,

I don't know how well the Hornby 29 has sold but it's been around for years - I think it was originally released in the late 1970s.
,
Dapol clearly think there is enough of a market as they are producing the model in OO.

They weren't sure about N but after the convincing arguments here, and because of the good job they made of the 22, because we felt Dapol were offering us a pretty good deal, we thought it was worth a shot!

Thanks to all those who are spreading the word - it's only November so we still have longer than with a full Kickstarter campaign, and I think Warley offers a great opportunity...

cheers

Ben A.



Offline JasonBz

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Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #88 on: November 10, 2015, 10:43:37 PM »
The Hornby 29 was produced mid / early 70s......my mate had one  :) when I just had a Western :( at the time

I wasnt being negative when I mentioned about Scottish stuff not been over attractive, it does just seem to be historically that way... I want you to succeed :)

Offline Ben A

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Re: Class 21 & 29 proposed by Revolution Trains
« Reply #89 on: November 10, 2015, 10:55:34 PM »

Hi Scotty,

Good and bad news.

The first Class 29 to be converted was D6123 in 1963 - see here:

http://www.paxmanhistory.org.uk/paxrailt.htm

Unfortunately, while the side grille and roof changes were made, this locomotive did not receive the four character headcode panel...

cheers

Ben A.



 

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