Should Bachfar copy Hornby by doing budget Rail Road locos and rolling stock

[davidinyork]

Any new budget range would be priced in order to grow the market, and a larger market means lower production costs. I know, I know ... it's chicken and egg! How do we get lower prices if we don't have a large enough market? How do we get a large enough market if we don't have lower prices?

There's a very real risk that this sort of strategy would just fragment the market without actually growing it.

[FeelixTC]

I can't understand why anyone would encourage manufacturers to 'dumb down' their range.

There are many many threads and comments regarding the poor quality of some 'older' models, but I cant find any where the compaint is that the detail is too good.

[Dr Al]

How do we get a large enough market if we don't have lower prices?

IMHO Quality, quality quality. Attract people to N by having the best quality models we can. The prices need not rise further to attain this quality - we are now getting it with the current ranges.

Cheers,
Alan

[Newportnobby]

Mention was made of the old Poole tooling being too old now. Surely they could dig out a few pieces to bring out a basics range, thereby attempting to grow the market. Just a thought.

As purchasers of N gauge we frequently complain about the timescale from announcement to arrival and it would appear much of this is down to 'our' production slots being bumped in favour of something else. How would the buyers of the 'premium' product feel if they were then bumped again for a run of the 'economy' product (or vice versa)? I'm sorry but I just think this way chaos lies.
Paddy makes a fair point about removing the detailing packs and making the product slightly cheaper, but rather than that, how about doing away with DCC fitted locos. OK - I know nothing about DCC but it strikes me from reading much on this forum that in many cases the chips fitted are not what folks would fit given the choice (Bachmann in particular). It may not take much time/expense at the plant to make a small run of the fitted models but every little helps.
If, by any stretch of the imagination, Farish were to sell off old tools, where would the new owner have the models manufactured? If China is the reply then all the same arguments about wage rises, production slots etc apply.

[Dr Al]

but rather than that, how about doing away with DCC fitted locos. OK - I know nothing about DCC but it strikes me from reading much on this forum that in many cases the chips fitted are not what folks would fit given the choice (Bachmann in particular).

Bachmann don't sell DCC fitted models (apart from a couple in DCC train sets) - only DCC ready (i.e. you fit your own chip).

Dapol offer DCC fitted versions of their models, but these are simply the DCC ready versions fitted by hand with Gaugemaster DCC23 chips, and offered at the price of the DCC ready model plus a bit (actually, usually less than the DCC23 chip separately, so a good deal if you DCC).

Peco offered their only loco DCC fitted.

DJM we shall see in time.

Cheers,
Alan

[DesertHound]

Ok, so from the discussion so far, I think we have arrived at two lines of thought;

1) The future lies in striving for greater and greater quality and there isn't room for a budget line.

2) The budget line, if introduced, would enable more modellers to buy new locos.

The arguments for the former (number 1) do seem compelling, although I just feel, in my heart of hearts, the manufacturers are slowly tightening the noose around their own necks. Just my humble opinion of course. 

Dan

[DesertHound]

Any new budget range would be priced in order to grow the market, and a larger market means lower production costs. I know, I know ... it's chicken and egg! How do we get lower prices if we don't have a large enough market? How do we get a large enough market if we don't have lower prices?

There's a very real risk that this sort of strategy would just fragment the market without actually growing it.

Yes that's true Dave. Where this happens in other product sectors, the manufacturer builds in enough "inferiority" in the cheaper product, or enough "superiority" in the premium product to mitigate this as much as possible. To what degree this could be achieved in model trains, I do not know. A few aspects would be detailing, lighting, DCC etc. etc. As I imagine Kato do with their different lines.

Dan

[DesertHound]

Ah, is this the 5 minute argument or the full half hour?

Seriously, this has been done again and again.  The market just is not big enough to have 2 ranges.   You inevitably cannibalise sales of one of the ranges.

I'm really not sure that larger production runs = lower unit costs.  If the tooling is old and amortised then the costs are all production costs and they are the same per unit if you produce 500 or 5000. The real issue is about how many pieces are required to produce a model - when you look at the seperate detail on a Polybulk you can understand why it costs so much to produce - the question then becomes not whether the detail is worth doing (it absolutely is) but whether all those individual parts need to be seperate.  My view on the later is that they don't necessarily have to all be seperate detail. I suspect that finding a balance between seperate and moulded detail (provided the detail is present and accurate) is a more likely way to find cost savings than a second range or larger production runs.

Cheers, Mike

Mike

You'll now doubt have quite a fair bit of knowledge on this subject so I take your comments with more than a pinch of salt 

Manufacturing of any kind though is not just about the cost of production at the coal face. Bachmann have a product development team, they have a team in Leicester, there's marketing and various other "fixed costs" that are spread out more thinly if you increase production (whether that be within the same range, or with a new range). Yes, there would be some costs associated with a new range, but you use the resources and people you have.

As for the logistics of using old tooling, I really don't know their capacity constraints etc. I just like exploring the idea of a second range, even if it's most unlikely to come from Bachmann.

Just my thoughts.

Cheers

Dan

[Newportnobby]

but rather than that, how about doing away with DCC fitted locos. OK - I know nothing about DCC but it strikes me from reading much on this forum that in many cases the chips fitted are not what folks would fit given the choice (Bachmann in particular).

Bachmann don't sell DCC fitted models (apart from a couple in DCC train sets) - only DCC ready (i.e. you fit your own chip).

Sorry, Alan. I should have been clearer in that I was referring to Bachmann chips rather than DCC fitted locos.

[Ian Morton]

There is a move to N amongst 'new' modellers - be they returnees to the fold or people who have never had a model railway before - but it is in small numbers compared to many other hobbies.

From the retailers perspective additional ranges of similar models just tie up more money in stock.
("I'd like a N gauge class 99 please."
"Yes sir. Premium or cheap? DCC fitted or not? Weathered or not? Which of the four livery versions?......")

Attracting the youngsters is a different thing all together - play value is the key here. Thomas and film tie-ins (sensible ones where the train is actually part of the story) are good - but film tie-ins are very ephemeral. Working features are good (car transporters, mail bag pick ups, container cranes etc.) but not really robust enough in N. Also it needs to be cheap - the fact that in virtually any other market, like cameras, mobile phones, oil paintings the smaller the item is the more you expect to pay doesn't cut the mustard with toys and passtimes.

You wouldn't want to ditch DCC for the budget range - most people just can't cope with two rail wiring from a standing start. If you can open the box, connect the track to the controller and run a number of locos straight out of the box then that is definitely a plus. If you can do it from your 'phone or tablet even better.

Tin hat on and taking shelter...

[MKP]

Are Bachmann interested in the younger modeller?

Lets say you have a 10/11 year old son/daughter and they want to get into model railways, what would you buy them?

[red_death]

As an aside, the death of the hobby has been predicted for years with doomsayers always bemoaning that there aren't enough youngsters in the hobby. 

Is the situation now really that much different to 20 or 30 years ago?  Sure there is much more competition for youngsters' attention when they are young, but that doesn't mean they are not interested in railways (or won't come to the hobby later in life when they have cash).

Cheers, Mike

[DesertHound]

There is a move to N amongst 'new' modellers - be they returnees to the fold or people who have never had a model railway before - but it is in small numbers compared to many other hobbies.

From the retailers perspective additional ranges of similar models just tie up more money in stock.
("I'd like a N gauge class 99 please."
"Yes sir. Premium or cheap? DCC fitted or not? Weathered or not? Which of the four livery versions?......")

Attracting the youngsters is a different thing all together - play value is the key here. Thomas and film tie-ins (sensible ones where the train is actually part of the story) are good - but film tie-ins are very ephemeral. Working features are good (car transporters, mail bag pick ups, container cranes etc.) but not really robust enough in N. Also it needs to be cheap - the fact that in virtually any other market, like cameras, mobile phones, oil paintings the smaller the item is the more you expect to pay doesn't cut the mustard with toys and passtimes.

You wouldn't want to ditch DCC for the budget range - most people just can't cope with two rail wiring from a standing start. If you can open the box, connect the track to the controller and run a number of locos straight out of the box then that is definitely a plus. If you can do it from your 'phone or tablet even better.

Tin hat on and taking shelter...

Definitely with you on the "themed" angle Ian. And yes, playability for youngsters would be the draw - controlling the train through your iPhone or iPad might be a major draw. Sounds gimmicky to us guys, but it's about expanding the customer base, drawing in more recruits who will later move on to "our kind of modelling".

In that case then DCC would be required wouldn't it Ian. Ah .... the cost has just shot up again!  :'(

The idea of a range to draw in more kids, or a range to bring in those who cannot afford the current ranges sounds such a noble one to me. That said, nobility doesn't come into economics does it? 

Maybe we should accept (maybe most of you already have) that this is now a grown-up's hobby, with some kids being interested, but it being very niche in their generation. Perhaps that's just the way of the world. Like all things, we change over time, from generation to generation.

Perhaps the kids of 2050 will be saying "what's an ipad?"

Dan

[DesertHound]

As an aside, the death of the hobby has been predicted for years with doomsayers always bemoaning that there aren't enough youngsters in the hobby. 

Is the situation now really that much different to 20 or 30 years ago?  Sure there is much more competition for youngsters' attention when they are young, but that doesn't mean they are not interested in railways (or won't come to the hobby later in life when they have cash).

Cheers, Mike

Good question you pose there Mike.

NGS society membership over the years might be a telling guide. I'm not saying you are at liberty to share that info. on a public forum (although surely available to us members should we request it) but a look back on membership numbers might be a good guide to the health if the hobby.

That said, I suppose membership can rise or fall for a number of reasons so not exactly a scientific analysis, but interesting to look nonetheless.

Dan

[mark100]

Lima types both in N and OO gauge as an economy range. 1 motor bogie and a feed coming from the trailing bogie to the motor bogie.

Please no! Those were truly dire - we do not need a return to that, it would be terrible for N!!

How about the old LoneStar mechanisms? I'm sure any patents on them must have run out by now

I think the elastic band mechanism on the polystyrene plane we got from Lidl would work better than the old lone star mechanism.