Should Bachfar copy Hornby by doing budget Rail Road locos and rolling stock

[DesertHound]

Good morning All

I was just about to put pen to paper (or should that be finger to keyboard), when I read GrahamB's post above. I think Graham is bringing us back to Mark's initial posturings, which were;

" ... for those interested in this hobby who could afford something at a lower price."

We seem to be talking a lot about substitution of product (that is buyers opting for the cheaper range over the more detailed range, hence undermining the good work done by Bachmann with their newer models). Many people have said "please let's not go back to the bad old days", when really nobody is suggesting that we give up the strides made by Bachman et al.

Where GrahamB and Mark are coming from, to my mind, is in a) growing the market and b) having product offerings for those who cannot afford current prices.

a) Growing the market:

One way to grow a market is by reducing the price. Yes, this might be achieved through introducing a second, cheaper product, but for entry level hobbyists, current prices might just be too high. Think of a hobby or fleeting interest you've had in the past. You wouldn't wish to commit large sums of money to kit / equipment if you weren't sure if you would like the hobby or not. Therefore you opt for "entry level" kit so that you can try the hobby out. This could be anything from an SLR camera to golf clubs to kite surfing equipment - you name it. Many hobbies have different product offerings depending upon your experience with the hobby, your level of interest, your willingness / ability to pay etc.

A market can also be expanded in size by a lowering of price. Think of low cost airlines. They created a market which did not exist before they were formed. People now fly as often as they take a bus, all thanks to the lower price point offered by the low cost airlines. Yes, they did alter the product slightly from the "full service" airlines, in order to be able to offer the service at a lower price, and hence "create demand".

b) having product offerings for those who cannot afford current prices:

Bachmann, in bringing out an "entry level" range, needn't cannibalise the Graham Farish brand they've worked hard to build up. It could be branded as something else, so as to be distinguishable from Graham Farish. Associating it with Graham Farish, I believe, would just confuse the consumer, especially those not so into the hobby as us on here.

A good example of this is Volkswagen. Now, if I'm not mistaken, isn't the VW Passat estate also available as a SEAT, a Skoda and an Audi? It's the same car with a different badge and different trimmings. The best reason for this is to be able to maximise revenue, selling the car to as much of the market as possible, segmenting the product (via different badges and trimmings) so that the price can be best matched to each market segment's willingness to pay? This is a bit like my example above of groups A/B/C/D and having a product which you can sell to each group. Without three of the four brands of the car, VW might only be able to sell to 1/4 of the market.

So, should there not be consideration given to an n gauge market segment that might be being missed? I don't know the answer, should this be considered, and I imagine the manufacturers do consider this from time to time. Ultimately they are privy to commercial information and sales figures so they are best placed to decide upon this.

My inkling, however, is that if something doesn't happen with the major manufacturers then somebody else will try it, since it's just not a hobby that is affordable to most people these days. My money would be on Hornby having a better understanding of the entry level market. If nobody else tries it then I think the manufacturers will not be around in x years to come.

I know as modellers we want the best we can get. I think Mark was trying to bring to the table an option for others, who might then grow into modellers and also want "the best they can get". However, if the only car available on the market was a Rolls Royce, then 99.9% of us wouldn't be driving.

Best

Daniel

[Dr Al]

Dr Al  I aggree with you it is caused by my old track but my point is the older Locos with more weight run perfectly with absolutely no derailments at all .

I'm afraid I'm of the opinion that manufacturers shouldn't modify their designs to cope with poor track - most folk have no trouble with these sized flanges or weights of models.

N needs a level of precision of tracklaying to get the best out of it - older models may have been more tolerant of gaps, kinks, bumps and uneven sections, but I'm not in favour of the retrograde (IMHO) step of going back to deeper flanges or the likes to mitigate this (even if not as bad as they used to be). There would be an outcry from most if this happened, as there was for some of the early Dapol models that did exactly this (e.g. first batch 9Fs with steamroller wheels, and first batch of 221 Super Voyagers. Dapol retooled the wheels on both for subsequent runs).

Cheers,
Alan

[Dr Al]

A good example of this is Volkswagen.

The absolutely key difference I think here is that VW are a huge worldwide manufacturer, with a huge market to draw on. N gauge model rail and Bachmann specifically are no such manufacturer. They cater for a very small, mainly UK, bespoke market that has very limited room for competing products.

The B1s are a perfect example of this.

Cheers,
Alan

[railsquid]

Hello all,

Please let's not go back to the bad old days.

The first N gauge model I bought, in the mid 90s, was a Kato Eurostar.  The second a CJM kit for a Class 73.  The third was a Farish 33, and I remember the crushing disappointment I felt at how poor it was in comparison.

Nowhere in the world, to my knowledge, are models as basic as the old Farish stuff still being produced.

Kato have a range of EMUs marketed as "KOKUDEN", which are very basic 3-car EMU sets based on the Japanese class 103 EMU in the liveries common in Tokyo when they were first introduced in the 1960s. They're missing "advanced" features such as forward/rear lights, no bogie pickups apart from the power car, or any form of additional detailing bits to worry about, and as far as I know they use the tooling for the old Kato mainstream production sets, which is not bad but  quite primitive compared to contemporary models (the motor unit is however the modern "underfloor" type). Here's one I happen to have:



which I bought in the dim and distant days of last summer when I was first trying out N-gauge after a hiatus of about 25 years from ('Orribly Oversized) model railways. The reason I bought it was: it was cheap, at around 3500 yen (around 20 quid at the current exchange rate, and about half the cost of "fully featured" basic sets), which is low enough to be able to write off as an experiment. Despite being a basic model I found it pretty damn impressive, watching it trundle back and forth on a short stretch of track and I was hooked.

Given that experience, I do think some sort of basic range might be very useful as a kind of "gateway drug", and I agree with @DesertHound 's sentiment that it should be distinct from existing brands. However I'm not sure how feasible that would be for the UK - in Japan, N gauge dominates and Kato can evidently afford to produce both the basic and "advanced" versions of the 103, and the market is big enough for Tomix and MicroAce to also have their own versions. To be honest I'm at a bit of a loss to come up with an equivalent basic model for the UK which would have reasonably universal appeal while not likely to cannibalize sales of the "advanced" model.

[Dr Al]

However I'm not sure how feasible that would be for the UK - in Japan,

The market in Japan is supposedly huge compared to here - I might be wrong, but IIRC it was said that Kato do runs of 10,000 models; as compared Dapol/Farish's 250-1000 odd....

Cheers,
Alan

[DesertHound]

They cater for a very small, mainly UK, bespoke market that has very limited room for competing products.

That's also true Al, hence the option of growing the market. The market, or should I say the manufacturers, are facing a cross-roads in my opinion. Continue on the current path until you are down to your last few customers who can afford GBP300 for a loco and rake of ten wagons, or adapt the product so that the price point can be changed, in an attempt to grow the market.

Whether the market can be grown or not, with "toys" such as ipads, playstations etc. competing for the youf's (sic) attention, I cannot say. If we accept it cannot, however, then we are either consigned to a very small market (maybe that's the case and we accept that) or worse, a continually decreasing market, with ever increasing prices for the few modellers / collectors left.

I'm always heartened whenever I go into a model shop and see a thirty-something guy walk in and ask what the options are for starting out in "N". Sadly I think they are the last of the "model train" generation who we're likely to see in reasonable numbers reconnecting with their childhood, or their dad's hobby. It would be even better if they were bringing their kids in too! I know there are kids interested in the hobby (either thanks to dad's interest / support or just down to their own interests) but what could we, as a hobbyist body, do to broaden the appeal?

Cheers

Dan

[Bob Tidbury]

Dr Al while I aggree my track is not perfect after 30 Odd years I still say that a lot of the problem is the weight of the steam Locos all my diesel Locos including my Class 22 which has the new fine scale wheels ,run fine because they are heavier and thier wheels are nearly the same size as pony and bogie wheels on steam Locos but never mind I will close my post now and hope I haven't annoyed you too much with my little rant. Im not one to keep on and on .
Bob

[Dr Al]

but what could we, as a hobbyist body, do to broaden the appeal?

Personally I think that getting folks into model rail in general is the important thing. Not the scale.

Point folk to OO - it's the biggest option for getting new modellers, youngsters (particularly through Hogwarts models or Thomas the tank models, which are all available in OO) etc into railways. From this folks will then filter down in time to the other scales. OO also has much more market presence in wider stores, Amazon, high street etc, and is more widely known in the population in general (many more folks have heard of Hornby and OO, 'dublo' than of Graham Farish or Bachmann).

I think this is the way to grow things - grow model rail as a whole, not aiming at N in particular.

Cheers,
Alan

[Dr Al]

I will close my post now and hope I haven't annoyed you too much with my little rant. Im not one to keep on and on .

Not at all  - all healthy debate.   

I'm happy with current standards of most models in terms of weight - though there are some specific exceptions e.g. the new Farish 4F which is just way too light in terms of pulling power.

Cheers,
Alan

[DesertHound]

but what could we, as a hobbyist body, do to broaden the appeal?

Personally I think that getting folks into model rail in general is the important thing. Not the scale.

Point folk to OO - it's the biggest option for getting new modellers, youngsters (particularly through Hogwarts models or Thomas the tank models, which are all available in OO) etc into railways. From this folks will then filter down in time to the other scales. OO also has much more market presence in wider stores, Amazon, high street etc, and is more widely known in the population in general (many more folks have heard of Hornby and OO, 'dublo' than of Graham Farish or Bachmann).

I think this is the way to grow things - grow model rail as a whole, not aiming at N in particular.

Cheers,
Alan

That's a fair point. I had second-hand OO when I was young, as I'm sure many on here did.

I was going to bring up the "themed sets" too. They seem to be prevalent in OO. Does anybody think there would be a market for them in N gauge? Harry Potter in N? Just a thought.

Hornby seem to be very good on capitalising on movies, events etc. and associating them with their models. A great way to broaden the appeal. It will be interesting to see their approach to N gauge through Arnold. I know it's a "slowly slowly" approach and through Arnold it seems more aimed at the modeller, but I wonder what strategy they will use in N.

Going back to the above poster's point, if kids do like OO, then if they get down to a model railway exhibition and see N, they might just become a convert. That's what happened to me.

I hope for all of us the hobby continues in a healthy manner and the younger generation join us to carry the baton.

Dan

[paulprice]

I agree with Dr Al

Over the last couple of weeks I have witnessed, and experienced the following.

When looking in a certain shop in Liverpool, at a crimson Jubilee the other half pointed out that I could get the same model but double the size for half the price, as a none modeller they could not see the initial sense in paying so much for N gauge.  When I mentioned the benefits of space I was told just build a bigger layout.......

The other this I witnessed was a middle aged chap with his son, purchasing some 00, and the Dad telling the son he could have the loco or the coach but not both, when I looked at what they were thinking about buying I was amazed that there was only £15 pound difference between the two.

I know we al moan about the costs, but know really they are good value (well sometimes at least) but for someone outside the hobby they must seem huge,

[DesertHound]

Railsquid

Great post! You and others, including Al, have made a fair point about market size, and this will no doubt sway the economics of what can / cannot be produced.

That said, the mission is to try and grow the market size, if at all possible.

Dan

[Buffin]

V interesting thread about the economics of the industry 

One issue for me is the magazine reviews. In Model Rail, for instance, they are astoundingly detailed, far beyond any demands I might have. Any deviation can lead to savage marking down. Is N gauge a rivet counters' ghetto?

[DesertHound]

... but for someone outside the hobby they must seem huge,

Paul

Surely that's why we need to explore ways in which the prices can be brought down (note, prices brought down for entry level models, not the "all singing, all dancing" varieties).

I think Mark's opening post was about making N gauge accessible to those who cannot afford current prices.

I'm not saying I hold the answers, nor that market size isn't an issue (it clearly is). 

Cheers

Dan

[Dr Al]

That said, the mission is to try and grow the market size, if at all possible.

Specifically for the N market size I think the way to do this is have outstanding high quality models, like those we are now getting;  precisely not a 'budget' lower quality range. Couple this with N's big advantage of space then it becomes a very attractive scale.

IMHO superb quality is what will make existing modellers in OO (or others) consider switching - Poole standard models will not.

Is N not currently growing anyway (anyone know of any stats?), precisely because of this?

Cheers,
Alan