!!

Not Registered?

Welcome!  Please register to view all of the new posts and forum boards - some of which are hidden to guests.  After registering and gaining 10 posts you will be able to sell and buy items on our N'porium.

If you have any problems registering, then please check your spam filter before emailing us.  Hotmail users seem to find their emails in the Junk folder.


Thanks for reading,
The NGF Staff.

Author Topic: Hints & tips for Z21 (Black) or z21 (White) users  (Read 28944 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Granite

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 10
  • Country: gb
    • Awards
Hi All,

Just a quick post to share my fight and final soloution to programming Gaugemasters GMC-PM10D digital point motors, these being the self contained point soloution, motor, decoder and CDU.

I was having all sorts of issues trying to change the address on each of the points ( the default being 1 ) but dispite trying a dozen different combinations and digital programmers i managed to get absolutely nowhere.

I did search high and low across the interwebs and i could find nearly nothing regarding the z21 and the GMC-PM10D's except for a couple of frustrated modellers with the same problem, so i reached out to Gaugemaster who came back to me with the soloution.

I should say that once the address is programmed, you are good to go for the digital control system of your choice, z21 + traincontroller in my case.

1. Set the switch on the PM10D to the 'set' position
2. In the Z21 app under the 'Controls' menu make sure that the point on the screen is showing your desired number by clicking on it and changing it if required
3. In the Z21 app go back to the play menu and bring up the point screen
4. Now tap the point a few times back and forth
5. Now set the switch on the PM10D to 'Run'
6. In theory when you press the point again on the Z21 app the actually point should fire



Cheers

Colin
Today, I will mostly be "doing the Hustle"

Offline jpendle

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 23638
  • Posts: 1518
  • Country: us
    • Awards
Hi All,

Just a quick post to share my fight and final soloution to programming Gaugemasters GMC-PM10D digital point motors, these being the self contained point soloution, motor, decoder and CDU.

I was having all sorts of issues trying to change the address on each of the points ( the default being 1 ) but dispite trying a dozen different combinations and digital programmers i managed to get absolutely nowhere.

I did search high and low across the interwebs and i could find nearly nothing regarding the z21 and the GMC-PM10D's except for a couple of frustrated modellers with the same problem, so i reached out to Gaugemaster who came back to me with the soloution.

I should say that once the address is programmed, you are good to go for the digital control system of your choice, z21 + traincontroller in my case.

1. Set the switch on the PM10D to the 'set' position
2. In the Z21 app under the 'Controls' menu make sure that the point on the screen is showing your desired number by clicking on it and changing it if required
3. In the Z21 app go back to the play menu and bring up the point screen
4. Now tap the point a few times back and forth
5. Now set the switch on the PM10D to 'Run'
6. In theory when you press the point again on the Z21 app the actually point should fire



Cheers

Colin

Unfortunately this is a regular issue that comes up when the point decoder manufacturer writes the instructions with something like the Gaugemaster Prodigy in mind.
I had just the same issue with my NCE Switch 8's and it required a bit of thought to work out what needed to be done on the Z21.

I would also refine the instructions you got as there is an unnecessary step in there, changes in RED.

1. Set the switch on the PM10D to the 'set' position
2. In the NEW Z21 app under the 'Control Station' menu, add a point to the screen or make sure that the point on the screen is showing your desired number(address) by clicking on it and changing it if required
3. In the same screen use the point editor to move the point a few times
5. Now set the switch on the PM10D to 'Run'

This applies to the NCE Switch products as well as many others.

Regards,

John P
Check out my layout thread.

Contemporary NW (Wigan Wallgate and North Western)

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39501.msg476247#msg476247

Offline husafreak

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: us
    • Awards
Re: Hints & tips for Z21 (Black) or z21 (White) users
« Reply #182 on: April 11, 2020, 05:21:45 PM »
Regarding power requirements for different scales, The Roco/Fleischmann z21 must be intended for use with N and HO scale loco's. In Z scale we are often challenged with reducing controller output for our small scale. A DC controller for Z might put out  10-12V. A popular DCC controller like the NCE Powercab comes with a 13.8V transformer. This is a bit high for Z but works fine for N. So some Z scale layouts substitute a 12V power supply for the NCE one, or use a diode ladder. Is the z21 with an 18V transformer (17V to track) intended more for HO than N? It seems the same again that we are talking about reducing the track voltage on the z21 or Z21 for N scale. The Z21 can be altered internally but the z21 must be altered externally. Due to my unfamiliarity with DCC track voltage requirements and inability to properly measure them with a simple voltmeter this complicates things. Would it be safe to say that under normal operation the supplied 18V transformer is safe for N scale, but that in the event of a short it is too much? Or is the 18V power supply always too much for N? Finally, I have a DCC Specialties PSX-1 Power Shield circuit breaker on my NCE controlled Z layout. Is something like this also used with the z21/Z21?
Thanks!

Offline jpendle

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 23638
  • Posts: 1518
  • Country: us
    • Awards
Re: Hints & tips for Z21 (Black) or z21 (White) users
« Reply #183 on: April 11, 2020, 06:23:15 PM »
Hi,

Most decoders will work in both N Scale and HO scale locos, as long as you can get them to fit.

I was running my layout quite happily with an 18V DCC track voltage and non sound decoders, so under normal operation an 18V power supply with a 17V track voltage should be fine.

Once I got my first sound loco with an ESU Loksound decoder the instructions recommended reducing the track voltage to around 15V. So for this a 16V power supply would give a 15V track voltage on the z21.

Yes you can use a PSX-1 with a Z21 I have one on my layout.

One thing to note the z21/Z21 supports Railcom as do most, if not all European system and decoders. POM works better on the Z21 if Railcom is active. Railcom can be switched on or off on the Z21 as required.

Most US systems and decoders don't use Railcom or even don't work if Railcom is present in the DCC signal.
So the NCE Switch 8 doesn't work with Railcom, and it doesn't power up properly until you send a loco command from the Z21 to the DCC bus.
The PSX-1 filters out Railcom.
I have a Z21 booster to control my accessory bus with Railcom turned off on the booster and the Z21 controls the track bus with Railcom turned on.

Regards,

John P
Check out my layout thread.

Contemporary NW (Wigan Wallgate and North Western)

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39501.msg476247#msg476247

Offline husafreak

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: us
    • Awards
Re: Hints & tips for Z21 (Black) or z21 (White) users
« Reply #184 on: April 11, 2020, 09:20:30 PM »
Thanks John, as always super helpful. It just sounds like with a lot of train stuff (a new hobby for me) there are lots of variables and they have to be compatible. I hadn't realized that sound decoders might have different voltage requirements than non sound decoders. Or that the same aftermarket decoders might be used in N and HO locos. My first and so far only N gauge loco is a Minitrix 16011 and I don't know what its power requirements (or limitations) are. It runs fine and all features operate via my NCE Powercab though :) I guess I'll find out if it plays well with the z21.

I will consider another PSX-1 for my N layout. And I highly recommend the buzzer and push to reset feature for that system. Great insurance.

Thanks for a very concise explanation of Railcom effects. I don't really know what it is but I have read a lot of posts (many yours) on the subject this week and I understand that it may help or hinder the operation of other components. I remember reading that you turned it off to get the Switch 8 to work. I did not know anything about track busses until now either. But if the PSX-1 filters out Railcom then it would not be present at the track? Or maybe I missed something? Cheers!

« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 09:22:51 PM by husafreak »

Offline jpendle

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 23638
  • Posts: 1518
  • Country: us
    • Awards
Re: Hints & tips for Z21 (Black) or z21 (White) users
« Reply #185 on: April 11, 2020, 11:07:45 PM »
I have seen at least one US diagram describing Railcom as "possibly obsolete".
It's just worth being aware that Railcom is a "thing" in Europe, but not at all in the US, and that's reflected in the products designed there.
If you plan on using Railcom for automation in the future then this stuff is good to know.

Regardless of Railcom, the NCE Switch 8, or Switch-It does not power up properly unless it sees DCC commands on the DCC bus, which can get pretty confusing with a Z21 as one day you turn on the power, turn on loco lights, then set a point/turnout/switch, and then drive the loco.
Next day you turn on power, set a point, but the point doesn't move and you realise that the LCD display on the Switch 8 isn't waggling as it should.
Once you know, then all you do is turn on some loco lights and then the Switch 8 display starts 'waggling', and all is well.
I don't know for sure but I can only assume that US designed throttles are always sending DCC packets even when you aren't actively using them, the Z21 doesn't do this.

Regards,

John P
Check out my layout thread.

Contemporary NW (Wigan Wallgate and North Western)

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39501.msg476247#msg476247

Offline husafreak

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: us
    • Awards
Re: Hints & tips for Z21 (Black) or z21 (White) users
« Reply #186 on: April 13, 2020, 09:04:16 PM »
I just ordered an 18V 3A US power supply. According to the manual the Z/z21 is designed for loads up to 3.2A. I could not find a 15V power supply with anywhere near 4A. So I also ordered 1N4001 diodes. But now I see from the manual for the Z21 that the WLAN router needs its own power supply :( I have a few more questions.
Does the diode ladder heat up in use?
Can someone give me the spec for the WLAN router power supply?
I wonder what practical minimum amp rating would work with the z21 at 15V and running N scale?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2020, 06:23:14 PM by husafreak »

Offline husafreak

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: us
    • Awards
Re: Hints & tips for Z21 (Black) or z21 (White) users
« Reply #187 on: May 22, 2020, 05:32:47 PM »
I just received the z21 set. The WLAN power supply is a 9v 0.6A 100-240V input. So with a plug converter it can be used in US outlets, or replacements are cheap and readily available.

Offline jpendle

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 23638
  • Posts: 1518
  • Country: us
    • Awards
Re: Hints & tips for Z21 (Black) or z21 (White) users
« Reply #188 on: May 22, 2020, 09:11:59 PM »
I just ordered an 18V 3A US power supply. According to the manual the Z/z21 is designed for loads up to 3.2A. I could not find a 15V power supply with anywhere near 4A. So I also ordered 1N4001 diodes. But now I see from the manual for the Z21 that the WLAN router needs its own power supply :( I have a few more questions.
Does the diode ladder heat up in use?
Can someone give me the spec for the WLAN router power supply?
I wonder what practical minimum amp rating would work with the z21 at 15V and running N scale?

Sorry I missed this.

Why do you think you need a diode ladder? The Z21/z21 should come with a power supply.
But in any case the 18V 3A supply you have ordered should work fine.
If you have a Z21 then the track voltage is programmable.

Regards,

John P
Check out my layout thread.

Contemporary NW (Wigan Wallgate and North Western)

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39501.msg476247#msg476247

Offline LASteve

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 28183
  • Posts: 566
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Hints & tips for Z21 (Black) or z21 (White) users
« Reply #189 on: May 22, 2020, 09:17:19 PM »
I guess this is the best place to post this question - it's regarding the Z21 iPad app.

My setup is a WLANMaus and a Digikeis DR5000, and the Z21 app on the iPad.

As I'm progressing laying track and adding signals and point motors (Cobalt IP) I'm testing as I go. I've got 13 locos loaded into the loco library and the track plan is laid out completely in the app. All is fine, when I "run" the layout from the app, locos respond, points and signals change, route settings work.

Then at some random point the entire app will freeze and I have to close it down and restart it before anything will respond again. I've got an older iPad "frozen" at iOS 10.3. Anyone have an idea what I might need to do, or have any of you seen this before?

Also, but not wanting to convolute the thread, the WLAN Maus ran out of juice the other day (as it is prone to do, the batteries don't last long in there) and when I changed the batteries and brought it back to life, about 10 of the locos that I'd programmed in there had disappeared? Completely random as to which ones had gone.

I'm genuinely pleased with this set-up, I can't imagine running what I'm doing now on my previous NCE Powercab, but I'd love to fix the glitches.

Offline jpendle

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 23638
  • Posts: 1518
  • Country: us
    • Awards
Re: Hints & tips for Z21 (Black) or z21 (White) users
« Reply #190 on: May 23, 2020, 03:19:31 AM »
Sorry Steve, but as you are using Digikeijs then we wonít be helping you as this is the wrong thread ;)









Anyhow, Iím using an iPad at 13.3 with my Z21 and have never seen the app hang.

I know nothing about the Multimaus but can it not access the loco roster on the iPad?

Regards,

John P

Check out my layout thread.

Contemporary NW (Wigan Wallgate and North Western)

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=39501.msg476247#msg476247

Offline LASteve

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • N Gauge Society Number: 28183
  • Posts: 566
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
    • Awards
Re: Hints & tips for Z21 (Black) or z21 (White) users
« Reply #191 on: May 23, 2020, 03:50:05 AM »
Anyhow, Iím using an iPad at 13.3 with my Z21 and have never seen the app hang.
Good to know. Thanks.

Offline husafreak

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 45
  • Country: us
    • Awards
Re: Hints & tips for Z21 (Black) or z21 (White) users
« Reply #192 on: May 23, 2020, 05:21:00 AM »
Oh there was a lot of talk in the beginning of this thread, I think, about reducing the voltage of the z21 for safer use with N scale locos. Since it cannot be done in the unit (like the Z21) some have used diode ladder reduction and others have sourced lower voltage supplies. For me the stock European supply had to change as it is not usable with 120V. But it sounds like you do not feel that a voltage reduction is necessary for N scale? I believe the unit sends one volt less than supply to the track.

 

Please Support Us!
May Goal: £60.00
Due Date: May 31
Total Receipts: £95.00
Above Goal: £35.00
Site Currency: GBP
158% 
May Donations

anything
SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal