Dapol A3/A4-very poorly made and designed

[austinbob]

I must say that in the past few years  I've had a Q1 a Voyager and then three St Ives Bay 153s all failures  Kernow were absolutely brilliant with thier service the final St Ives 153 must have been sent as replacement before they received the faulty one, all these were Dapol BUT I did buy a Farish Warship that only had three axle drive caused by a missing washer this was replaced by Farish the same week . I am very careful with all my stock in fact a lot stays on the layout all the time the newest I keep in the original boxes.
The Dapol faults were the little circuit boards one of the 153s actualy melted the insulation tape and the Voyager the same I now run the motor in that direct from the pickups with no problems.
Bob

I'm pleased you got your problems resolved to your satisfaction. BUT!! the problems shouldn't have happened. Should they?

I'm sure that there are many customers who are more than happy with their purchases but there just seem to be so many bad experiences, including my own

Bob Austin

[PLD]

thats where your wrong, im not complaining cos of 1 or 2 bad models, im now on my 2nd flying scotsman model, and 8th A4, with each one having some sort of repair except silver link.

I don't doubt that you have had that failure rate and understand your frustration.

My chalenge is why you should have 7/8 A4s fail and others have 7/8 perfect? If it was entirely the manufacturers fault, surely we would expect both to each have 4 good ones and 4 bad? What factors skew the distribution of the failures among purchasers? If we understood that we could identify potential causes after the factory gate to the benefit of those aflicted by higher failure rates...

what i dont understand is, not one person iv heard of having a silver link has developed a problem, yet the other A4s have.

I suspect the aparent lower failure rate for Silver Link is because a good proportion of them live in a cupboard and have never even been taken out of the box so we don't know if they run or not!!

[OwL]

I will tell you all about my own experience with a Dapol A3 (4472) first batch, realeased a while ago now.
The model was purchased off the shelf from The Signal Box in Anstey Leicestershire. I paid £101 for the model. I watched it being test run before handing over my cash. It looked and seemed ok to me........

Due to this excellent forum I had read reviews on both A3 + A4. I was aware of issues prior to deciding to buy one.
On purchasing the loco, I didn't take it home with me that day. I left it with the shop to 'run in, oil, service' and check for any issues that I had read about on the forum based on other peoples experience.

When I got home half an hour later the phone rang. The model shop had started the service on the loco and had found numerous small faults. Some were poor alignment of wheel sets to piston positions. Others were gaps in various areas that made the loco wonky. Others were poor cable connections/pick up connections.

Overall he said that these were repairable but down to poor assembly only.
I got my loco fixed and she has run perfect since.
On the basis of what the shop found they checked their remaining stocks of A3/A4 models and found similar problems in some but not all models. A high percentage were returned to Dapol I was told.

Excellent shop at Anstey and they sorted my loco.

Regarding the A3/A4 saga, there was obviously a massive QC issue on models especially first batch released and Dapol have been put over hot coals ever since.
This doesn't excuse the issues and the frustrations this has caused many customers expecting to get goods fit for purpose for a the top prices paid for these.

I hope Dapol have learnt from this. On the flip side of the coin I have found their diesels such as the class 58 and class 67 to be excellent.

[Dr Al]

so my next alternative was to remove the chassis and running plate and get in that way, no longer than i had removed a screw the valve gear that connects to the running plate snapped off, before quickly being followed by the other side.

This now of course is a write off....

It's not. This is fairly easily repairable - I've repaired 4 of these in this way. It is a weak aspect of the model as it's a glued joint, which sometimes seems to be weak.

What you did need (and Dapol would do well to supply) is an exploded diagram of what you need to take off to switch out tyres. Sadly, your approach wouldn't have worked as there's an internal screw holding the main chassis to the running plate. This can only be accessed by removing the boiler.

Cheers,
Alan

[Dr Al]

Suffice to say that if DCC Supplies have confirmed that a LOT of A3/A4s are returned then there is clearly a bigger problem

There are a number of common issues:

- this one with valve gear
- Dapol motor syndrome (as I call it)
- failing capacitor networks that can make it appear like the motor has gone
- poor pickup

However, all of these are fixable, and fixable fairly easily. Moreover, if my fleet of 6 A3s and 2 A4s is anything to go by the resulting runners are really pretty good.

Cheers,
Alan

[Dr Al]

Is it the way the purchasers treat the locos - the way they handle them (I've seen a number with squashed valve gear), store them (on their side in the box is NOT good for the valve gear nor wiper pickups) or run them (e.g. unsuitable controller used, not following running in instructions, overloading etc)

This is precisely it PLD - nail on head.

Modern locos are more delicate, both detail and mechanically this is just a fact - nowadays they really aren't toys and can't be treated nearly as roughly as old school Farish or Minitrix. I've watched at exhibitions aghast at the way some folks treat their models, and those are the ones exhibiting! Dragging models along the track dead, dumping them down, roughly pulling them through dead track sections, holding them back with the wheels spinning to hook up that van they forgot....etc.etc....and then they wonder why they fail so readily? It surprises me folk are so rough with their investment - I look at a loco and tend to remember it cost a hundred quid, and then treat it very carefully!

That's not even going near the issue of the quality of the track they are expected to run on in some cases.

So be gentle folks! They will then serve you well!

Going back to the OP - the locos in question (Flying Scotsman at any rate) are unlikely to be write offs. Whilst frustrating, it's not as bad as that - they almost certainly can be put right. Complaining is fair enough, but Dapol don't seem likely to change the design, nor does this really help you at present, unless they offer an out of warranty repair for you (which would be generous). I would also look seriously at why you're having tyres shedding in the first place - that's the root problem rather than the loco - likely through handling or the track.

If you don't get them repaired by Dapol, or DCC supplies say they are write offs, let me know - they can be fixed.

Cheers,
Alan

[Dr Al]

it can be easily repaired with a new chassis

Actually, because of the design of the A3 and A4, it can't.

Because in both cases the motion bracket for the eccentric rods is connected to the footplate, when you swapped the body you'd swap over the valve gear fault onto the new chassis. This is likely why DCC are saying these are write offs. I just re-bond the motion bracket onto the footplate, and have had no trouble to date with the models I have that were fixed like this.

Don't know why DCC are writing off models only with motor faults though - unless their supply of replacement motors has dried up.

Cheers,
Alan

[alibuchan]

Alistair

I don't know where you get your acceptable failure rate of 3 to 7%. but if that were true then most manufacturers would be bankrupt.

Warranties are there, for good manufacturers, to ensure that the customer has some redress for the OCCASIONAL instances where a bad product slips through the net or there is an unexpected failure within the normal life of the product. A warranty is not a license to ship rubbish!

Bob Austin

This was the figure given in a discussion on RMWEB by Dave Jones when he was running the side. This is a figure that is factored in to the costings of the model so we re already paying for the fact that there will be failures, these failed models can go on to be donor models for the parts that are good to be canabalised to make the other failures run.

You have sort of lost your own argument there in the second statement I have quoted. By putting "occasional instances where a bad product slips though the net".

Is it not possible that in a modern manufacturing process that has replaced people who care about doing the job, with robots and people in Chinese factories that a dud product can slip through the net.

Have you ever not put enough glue on a model or created a dry solder joint whilst doing electrics? I have it's unfortunate but these things happen and are not noticed until you turn it over and it either falls off again or has no power going to it.

If you want to see how badly it can go look at one of the biggest car producers in the world, Toyota. 23 million cars recalled in the past 5 years because of faulty parts!

If you didn't like this fact then feel free to ignore it. But just remember that if it wasn't for Dapol pushing, we would probably still be waiting for the Farish 60, ivatt and 101 that were promised 5+ years before they got it to the shops.

Yes it is unfortunate that people get models that aren't as perfect as they should be, but you can return it, swap it and try again. Ask the shop to test the loco for you, usually in the first coup,e of laps you can see an issue, if it has one try another. If that shop won't do it go to another who will take this time to give you good service.

As Someone has said these models are getting some very fine detail now in a good picture it can be hard to tell if it is N or 00. This has to be realised and adjustments made in how we handle these new high detail models we are getting.

Just think if it wasn't for Dapol where would you get a grange, schools, 153, 156, 14xx, 67, 58, terrier etc etc. They must be doing something right!

Alistair

[Bealman]

Modern locomotives do have very delicate detailing. Most damage on mine has been inflicted just getting them out of the box... and that includes my beloved Blue Pullman!

[silly moo]

I don't have a Dapol A3 or A4 because I couldn't afford them when they were launched, so I decided to stick with my Minitrix locos, also I was put off by the amount of negative comments posted about them on the forum.

I read reviews in the magazines but also take note of posts on this forum. With any new loco there are bound to be a few duds but there did seem to but rather a lot more complaints about the A3 and A4.

[austinbob]

Alistair

I don't know where you get your acceptable failure rate of 3 to 7%. but if that were true then most manufacturers would be bankrupt.

Warranties are there, for good manufacturers, to ensure that the customer has some redress for the OCCASIONAL instances where a bad product slips through the net or there is an unexpected failure within the normal life of the product. A warranty is not a license to ship rubbish!

Bob Austin

This was the figure given in a discussion on RMWEB by Dave Jones when he was running the side. This is a figure that is factored in to the costings of the model so we re already paying for the fact that there will be failures, these failed models can go on to be donor models for the parts that are good to be canabalised to make the other failures run.

You have sort of lost your own argument there in the second statement I have quoted. By putting "occasional instances where a bad product slips though the net".

Is it not possible that in a modern manufacturing process that has replaced people who care about doing the job, with robots and people in Chinese factories that a dud product can slip through the net.

Have you ever not put enough glue on a model or created a dry solder joint whilst doing electrics? I have it's unfortunate but these things happen and are not noticed until you turn it over and it either falls off again or has no power going to it.

If you want to see how badly it can go look at one of the biggest car producers in the world, Toyota. 23 million cars recalled in the past 5 years because of faulty parts!

If you didn't like this fact then feel free to ignore it. But just remember that if it wasn't for Dapol pushing, we would probably still be waiting for the Farish 60, ivatt and 101 that were promised 5+ years before they got it to the shops.

Yes it is unfortunate that people get models that aren't as perfect as they should be, but you can return it, swap it and try again. Ask the shop to test the loco for you, usually in the first coup,e of laps you can see an issue, if it has one try another. If that shop won't do it go to another who will take this time to give you good service.

As Someone has said these models are getting some very fine detail now in a good picture it can be hard to tell if it is N or 00. This has to be realised and adjustments made in how we handle these new high detail models we are getting.

Just think if it wasn't for Dapol where would you get a grange, schools, 153, 156, 14xx, 67, 58, terrier etc etc. They must be doing something right!

Alistair

Alistair

I have no comment other than to say that if we continue to accept and make excuses for bad products then things will not improve. Loco manufacturers will rub their hands with satisfaction knowing that the poor customer will not complain and either accept poor product or go through the hassle of customer returns and repairs.

Bob Austin

[Karhedron]

I don't know where you get your acceptable failure rate of 3 to 7%. but if that were true then most manufacturers would be bankrupt.

This was the figure given in a discussion on RMWEB by Dave Jones when he was running the side. This is a figure that is factored in to the costings of the model so we re already paying for the fact that there will be failures, these failed models can go on to be donor models for the parts that are good to be canabalised to make the other failures run.

I can independently verify that the failure rate figures quoted are about right. A couple of years ago I contacted one of the major box shifters to enquire about their return rate for faulty locos. Both Darish and Dapol had a return rate of about 5% which is right in the middle of the range Alistair quotes.

As a large retailer, I think they probably have a much more representative picture of average values than an individual who may be lucky or unclucky. What this value shows is that Dapol and Farish both charge similar prices for their products and both have a similar failure rate. Clearly british manufacturers have decided that this is the price point the market will stand. I am not saying that they are right or wrog but the fact that they both seem to have independently reached the same figure means they may know their customers better than we give them credit for.

I have a decent sized loco collection from each of main manufacturers. Out of my fleet I have had 1 faulty loco each from Dapol, Farish and Peco. In each case the faulty loco has been repaired or replaced.

Yes it is disappointing if a loco does not work out of the box but let's keep a sense of perspective. As long as the manufacturers have systems in place to make good any faults (repair or replace), it is not a big deal.

[Dr Al]

Loco manufacturers will rub their hands with satisfaction knowing that the poor customer will not complain and either accept poor product or go through the hassle of customer returns and repairs.

Given then they clearly are getting lots of returns, and that they have been comprehensively criticised on this forum, RMWeb (which they monitor) and no doubt others, I doubt they are thinking this way.

There is evidently far less acceptance in this day and age than in the past - they first load of A3s had to have their tender paintwork redone for instance due to an error pointed out on RMweb, and apparently the new Farish Duchesses have gone back to rectify nameplate problems.

There are problems still, but it's an imperfect world, and things still continue to improve IMHO.

Cheers,
Alan

[Karhedron]

There are problems still, but it's an imperfect world, and things still continue to improve IMHO.

Agreed, while we are not there yet, manufacturers are continuing to improve. Farish have ditched their tender drive in steam locos after persistent reports of locking valve gear and have replaced it with coreless loco drive. Dapol repsonded to the quartering issues in their early steam locos by introducing squared axels.

Dapol seem to have slowed their R&D slightly since the departure of Dave Jones. I guess it is taking longer than expected for Richard to get up to speed. The Grange appears to be taking shape nicely though so hopefully we can look forward to seeing how they progress.

Then of course we have Dave Jones' own line of locos to look forward to. He clearly feels that the quality bar can be raised and is offering to individually test each loco before dispatch which should greatly improve the QC in his line. I am looking forward to the GWR Mogul.

[Dr Al]

I can independently verify that the failure rate figures quoted are about right. A couple of years ago I contacted one of the major box shifters to enquire about their return rate for faulty locos. Both Darish and Dapol had a return rate of about 5% which is right in the middle of the range Alistair quotes.

Whilst this is undoubtedly true, and one fo the best sources of statistics on this, the failure rate will be a lot higher - it doen't consider those locos that are never run, or those that are not repaired, or those that are repaired independently by their owners.

I wonder what the fail rate for similarly made products on other lines is (not cars, or consumer electronics as those are made by machines in huge volumes; model railways are not).

Cheers,
Alan