BR Western Region Liveries 1950s

[DWS]

Please bear with me on this one, being a Newbie I am getting a bit confused!  So before I make an expensive mistake I would really like some advice.

I am modelling a West Country country station and branch line in the Western Region and I am not sure what Loco/Passenger stock liveries I should be using.  I have trawled the Internet for some answers but a lot of it is either contradictory or unclear.

I am planning to base my layout in the period 1950-1956 so that would be locos with Early Emblems, that much I understand.  My question is; what colour should my passenger stock be?

On advice from one scource (a major model railway shop, no names mentioned) I purchased a pair of Dapol 'B Set' coaches in Maroon to go with a Dapol 57xx Pannier Tank - Black with early emblem, the scource telling me that this was correct.

However, I have now been informed by another source (again no names mentioned) that Maroon coaches were not introduced until 1957, a year after the early emblem was replaced by the late emblem.  Is this correct?

As I was also planning to purchase a 14xx Autocoach for my layout, again a black 14xx loco with early emblem and a Maroon Autocoach, I could really do with some more advice on this subject of correct liveries for my layout before I order any more items.

Thank you for your patience...   

[EtchedPixels]

Firstly note that all the dates are when a livery was first used. Stock could go for many years without a repaint, and particularly for stock going to be scrapped there was no incentive to repaint (or often to clean) them.

So a good rule of thumb unless you want to go nosing through the exact tables of locomotives and painting dates is that the old crest is generally safe anywhere post 1948 or so, the new crest post 1956 but with many locomotives never receiving it.

Likewise coaches got repainted when needed and stock due for scrap or stock for workmens trains or parcels got repainted even less. There were plenty of coaches made the 1950s in pre BR liveries such as GWR wartime brown, LNER teak, etc and I believe a few scraped the 1960s that way.

Anyway dates for repaints:

Coaches were painted crimson and cream from shortly after nationalisation, with non express stock getting plain or sometimes lined crimson.

From 1956 maroon was introduced with a few WR coaches getting chocolate/cream for the prestige express services only, and with SR stock going back to green. Some got lined maroon some didn't. The logic of this is quite baffling on the whole with wild inconsistencies across different vehicles of some types.

From 1965 BR blue began to be used

1948-1956 saw the use of the "Cycling Lion" (the early crest), although a few locomotives initially carried "British Railways" wording and other variants

1956-1965 saw the use of the later crest (where the Lion holds the wheel - aka 'Ferret and Dartboard')

The British Rail arrows ('arrows of confusion') were introduced in 1965 but only ever applied to the three steam locomotives that received rail blue livery.

[keithfre]

From http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/6-livy/br/9-br-4864.htm (bottom of page):

"The original official colours for BR passenger stock was crimson lower body with cream upper panels for main line stock, plain crimson for suburban stock. In 1957 there was a change to all-over maroon for both main line and suburban loco hauled coaches. The Western Region had started painting some of its mainline coaches in essentially GWR colours in 1953, and and following the change to standard maroon livery other regions started using regional colours for main line coaching stock. The WR settled on chocolate and cream for its main line coaches"

[Chris in Prague]

Crimson and cream certainly lasted into the early 1960s albeit on older pre-BR Standard Mark 1s judging by the colour photos I've studied of WR passenger trains. For your chosen period, the autocoach (the GWR designs not the BR Swindon design) would, most probably, be in crimson and cream, I think.

[port perran]

Crimson and Cream (Blood and Custard) would be fine and I think that the autocoach should be of that livery.
For the period that you are modelling, I think there would have been some old stock laying around (particularly non-corridor) in chocolate and cream livery and used on secondary duties (eg schools and local trains).

[DWS]

So, the way I read it is 1950 to 1956, no Maroon coaches then?

[keithfre]

So, the way I read it is 1950 to 1956, no Maroon coaches then?

They might have been seen in the BR(W) region having originated in another region, mightn't they?

[EtchedPixels]

So, the way I read it is 1950 to 1956, no Maroon coaches then?

They might have been seen in the BR(W) region having originated in another region, mightn't they?

The other regions would also have been crimson or crimson and cream at the time. The switch to maroon was across the entire network at the same point. It was after all *supposed* to be one organisation by then.

The only maroon coaches floating about would have been ex LMS escapees that hadn't been repainted from LMS maroon shades yet - so probably parcel stock of LMS origin.

[DWS]

Thanks for all the comments chaps, it's all a bit clearer now 

[geoffc]

Whilst I agree with most of what has been said, the liveries were not changed overnight en masse as BR was experimenting with colours for locos. Some locos were still marked GWR as late as 1956, I would suggest you try and get hold of a copy of "Collet and Hawksworth Locomotives" by Ian Allen. Although this is not in colour you can differentiate between between two tone and monotone coaches and there are livery and lettering variations as well. There is a shot of a 1400 class sandwiched between two coaches one is monotone and one is two tone

Geoff

[Chris in Prague]

For a WR branchline layout, layout in the period 1950-1956, I think it is pretty safe to assume the locos. would have the early BR Crest (1949 on) and the carriages would be in crimson and cream. (If they were not they could still be in GWR colours and the closer you go back to 1950 the higher the probability of that.)

I have "Peto's Register of Great Western Locomotives Volume Three: 14XX and 58XX 0-4-2Ts" and "Great Western Auto Trailers: Part Two: Post-Grouping and Absorbed Vehicles" by Lewis, J.; so can answer specific queries about specific locos. and autotrailers.

[Karhedron]

Just to confuse matters further, the WR painted auto-coaches in crimson and cream livery until about 1952, even though they were non-corridor suburban stock. Around that time, Swindon was "reminded" to stick to the official guidelines and autocoaches started coming out in plain crimson.

Since some autocoaches were probably still wearing GWR colours into the 1950s, you could legitimately run, chocolate and cream, crimson and cream and plain crimson auto-coaches at the same time.

The new auto-coach that is under development by Farish is the Hawksworth pattern one that was actually built in BR days. This will be available in plain crimson, crimson and cream (both suitable for your period) and Maroon (post-1957).

The Dapol autocoach is (or has been) available in GWR chocolate and cream livery, crimson and cream (both suitable for your period). It has also been done in Maroon (too late for you) and an odd Maroon and cream livery which I don't think is accurate.

The Dapol model has never been available in plain crimson but I have repainted mine as 192 which was the Ashburton coach for some years.

[DWS]

Thanks for all the comments and help on this one, to make life easier I have now moved my modelling period to the 1960s.  See latest post in 'Layout Construction' - Midsomer Magna.