Farish or dapol

[Bigric]

Loco reliability - for me , definitely Bachmann Farish over Dapol , though I have had a few new Farish turkeys over the years .....but not as many as Dapol poor runners . I used to buy some new stuff on Ebay as well as used , but now I would only ever buy a new Dapol loco from a reliable retailer where I know I will get a replacement if there is a problem .
         Paint finish generally MUCH more consistently good on Farish locos than on Dapol as well IMHO .
         Union Mills generally excellent , though less detailed than Farish or Dapol , especially their more recent releases . I have had a few running problems over the years with used UM locos which I've bought on Ebay , & have always found Colin VERY helpful & accommodating with repairs etc . plus you get a letter typed on a REAL typewriter !!! Cheers , Ric

[PLD]

It has always puzzled me that (if internet postings are to be believed) all the duds from both Farish and Dapol wind up in the same hands… Apparently some modellers have ‘every one fail’ while for others ‘every one is perfect’. That distribution of the good and the bad can’t be explained away as purely random distribution nor plain luck can it???

So I have to ask what else could be influencing it?  Are those individuals unwittingly doing something different (in handling, storage, maintenance or usage of the locos) that makes theirs more likely to fail, or do some have a greater tolerance of what they consider a minor issue they are willing to fix themselves (for example Farish Steam loco pick-ups always need adjusting), or does their postman practice his golf swing on parcels in the sorting office?

Paul

[Karhedron]

That distribution of the good and the bad can’t be explained away as purely random distribution nor plain luck can it???

Actually when you are dealing with small sample sizes, getting outliers like a few people always getting duds is likelier than you might think. Statistics can be odd and probability has no memory.

[ParkeNd]

It really wasn't any different for any of the products except perhaps for the cars.

Quality doesn't cost money. It costs a change in attitude and in particular dropping the defence "we are unique - it couldn't be done here"

Quite possibly the major model train manufacturers think what their customers want most is models festooned with detail, but are quite happy to solder and re-assemble the defects themselves. There are probably even companies who think we are happy to wait for replacements or missing bits to be shipped in the post.

For me, having the model the right shape overall, but run perfectly is what matters. I don't bother to fit all the bits in the bags because I can't see them.

I actually agree with you on most things - I'd rather have quality mechanisms, the right shape and the detail, but then I haven't had the issues with things failing that others have and I'm prepared to pay more for it.

I still think that size of market is an issue when ltd editions don't sell 250-500 and that the market is very price sensitive. 

Furthermore, I disagree that quality doesn't cost money - that is either naive or disingenuous - while I agree it requires a change in attitude, it also requires investment in time and/or money in development, plus it may mean having more skilled or better motivated workers ie ultimately it adds to a cost. Farish benefit from being able to use the same factory repeatedly (owned by their parent cpy) whereas Dapol contract out (and IIRC had to change at least once).

I don't for one minute think it can't be done, but I do wonder whether we will pay for it!

Cheers, Mike

It can actually save money when you compare it with the cost of bad quality but then you have to have accounts systems which let you know what returns, repairs, replacing missing parts, and managing complaints in general are costing you. But this has to be set up when you have decided to "go for it".

[Agrippa]

An interesting  point Paul , Who knows ? Some people mentioned the locos being faulty straight out of the box so in these cases it can't be storage, handling , maintenance etc.
Perhaps a lot of modellers just  don't post their complaints or praise of a particular model which might make those that do stand out more , or as you suggested they aren't too bothered about minor faults they can fix themselves.

[Jack]

People are discussing whether Dapol's failure rates are better than Farish failure rates and how acceptable they are or not, as the case maybe.

How does Kato locos stack up against Dapol and Farish?

I don't own any Kato units but my understanding is that they always work straight out of the box without the fiddling with pick ups etc, and that the failure rate isn't worth mentioning. If I'm wrong I'll stand corrected, but my point is you don't hear much about "my Kato xxxx has broken how do I fix it?". If Kato can get it right first time why can't Dapol and Farish?

[mr bachmann]

looks like its kato time  , bigest draw back you either purchace a 'drop in' decoder (not that simple for a novice) for ex No of £'s , or hard wire - I keep emailing them to fit a 6 pin socket but no luck so far . Kato also do special runs of factory fitted dcc locos inc sound , but only avaiable through them .
As for running quality they are superb and they do what they say on the 'box' - the Southern Pacific GS4 for example will haul the full 18 car train even up the grades . Smoth quiet runners , price is compatable with bachmann 2013/4 catalog stuff - but you get better quality .
Unfortunetly they dont do UK outline .


alan

[Zunnan]

There are people who will argue that Kato make models in vastly larger volumes, so additional quality control and R&D costs are soaked up by that. But if for instance, you assume that Kato make models by the batch say 10 times larger than Dapol do with their rediculous 500 per model (so 5,000 Kato models) I'd wager that there would be a pretty similar number of faulty models from the Kato batch; not percentage, actual faulty units. There are a few of us at the club who buy Kato, between us I'd say we've bought in excess of 100 models, and of those I can think of one solitary model that was a dud...and that was second hand, the fault was with the poorly fitted after market DCC decoder not being insulated properly.

At the end of the day, you get what you pay for. Dapol produce stupidly small batches so the costs aren't spread out across as many sold units, either that means they're designed or made on the cheap or they're sold at an inflated price to recoup the costs (my guess is both, based on the poor electrical specification and materials used). Farish run larger production runs, but not by a significant amount, so their costs are spread about a little bit more, plus a fair few of their models share R&D from 00 gauge models which will help to improve margins a little. The end result is I'll only buy Dapol over the counter after a thorough testing, Farish I'll usually wait for the first few online reviews to surface to gauge whether there are any issues before ordering anything. In neither case will I pre order anything but rolling stock. And as I noted earlier in the thread, a few puffs of smoke from Dapol locos and the ensuing 'you killed my brand new engine' arguments (we use Gaugemaster controllers by the way) I won't even let people test on the layout anymore. That said, one of my best running models is a Dapol Ivatt tank, weighted considerably to aid traction and pickup that has now clocked up 280 hours running. I have to admit though, it is my only surviving running Dapol loco too. I did have a peach of a HST once and a few 58s that ran well, but I've had a nightmare with the 9Fs, not yet seen a goodun, and a fair share of 'super creep' tender drives running excessively hot or failing completely with brush goo in the motors or failing loco-tender wiring. My biggest bugbear with Farish on the other hand is the prolific use of crap traction tyres, most locos I own that have them needs them replacing after a day or two of exhibition use. And I've had two Farish tender drive motors shed commutator contacts now (both Jubilees), which seizes the motor and burns them out very quickly if not stopped immediately. These models were both a fair few years old, and had done over 300 hours a piece, but still, a failure is a failure. I actually prefer the simplicity of older Farish steamers, they were made to have worn parts replaced, not be consigned to the bin when something expires because spares are next to unavailable. Probably why I like UM so much.

edit~ bad maths!

[Karhedron]

If I'm wrong I'll stand corrected, but my point is you don't hear much about "my Kato xxxx has broken how do I fix it?".

Is that simply because this board tends to be mainly British outline and Kato only do 2 UK outline models and those are to 1:160 scale? I don't know the return rates for Kato locos but the low reported failure rate on this forum could be a function of low Kato ownership among british modellers.

[Jack]

If I'm wrong I'll stand corrected, but my point is you don't hear much about "my Kato xxxx has broken how do I fix it?".

Is that simply because this board tends to be mainly British outline and Kato only do 2 UK outline models and those are to 1:160 scale? I don't know the return rates for Kato locos but the low reported failure rate on this forum could be a function of low Kato ownership among british modellers.

While I accept that generally that most of our members model British outline, there are quite a few among us that model American N gauge and one or two who model Japanese, hence why we have sub-boards for them, but my point still stands, that being build quality in comparison to Dapol and Farish.

[johnlambert]

I copied Les1952's example and did a quick analysis of my fleet.  I'll spare you the model-by-model breakdown but the numbers for new locos break down as follows:

Dapol
11 owned (7 steam, 4 diesel)
2 'unacceptable' (one runs like a pig, one failed after 4 or 5 hours running with a burnt out circuit board).  The failed loco was repaired and seems fine now, the other needs to be returned to the retailer.  Both problems were with steam locos.

Graham Farish
12 owned (2 steam type [I'll count the class 08 as steam], 10 diesel/electric)
1 unacceptable  due to out of round wheels (steam loco) and returned to retailer.

Fairly even match but IMHO neither the rough running Dapol loco or the wobbly-wheel Farish loco should have been passed as acceptable by factory QC.  The burnt out circuit probably couldn't have been detected by QC.

Other than that, Dapol has more issues with droopy couplings and Rapidos that won't stay together, but the knuckle type seem to work better (and allow close coupling).  But Farish designed NEM pockets that are so tight it is hard to fit non-Farish couplings (although newer stuff seems better in that respect).

In terms of accuracy and detail there is nothing to choose between them.

Overall, I still think both companies are pretty evenly matched.

[NinOz]

If I'm wrong I'll stand corrected, but my point is you don't hear much about "my Kato xxxx has broken how do I fix it?".

Is that simply because this board tends to be mainly British outline and Kato only do 2 UK outline models and those are to 1:160 scale? I don't know the return rates for Kato locos but the low reported failure rate on this forum could be a function of low Kato ownership among british modellers.

No.
Surrounded by US prototype modellers and subscribe to a couple of N US based sites (I have over 20 Kato, lifelike and Atlas locos); I have never heard of the warranty and performance problems as reported on UK sites for Dapol and Farish.  I have never heard of any of the local N modellers who have had to return a Kato or Atlas under warranty.
Dapol and Farish still produce lower quality stuff.

[red_death]

There are people who will argue that Kato make models in vastly larger volumes, so additional quality control and R&D costs are soaked up by that. But if for instance, you assume that Kato make models by the batch say 10 times larger than Dapol do with their rediculous 500 per model (so 5,000 Kato models) I'd wager that there would be a pretty similar number of faulty models from the Kato batch; not percentage, actual faulty units.

There is no argument to be had - Kato do produce models in vastly larger volumes  compared to the market (if the market is so large for UK then why can you still buy Kato Eurostars umpteen years after it was made?).

QC and R&D costs etc are soaked up by producing more models - simple maths.

But no one is pretending that Dapol/Farish have reached Kato levels - in fact the opposite, they have explained exactly why Dapol/Farish haven't!

Cheers, Mike

[ParkeNd]

Lots of references in many posts to QC Costs and to QC picking up the defective locos.

Modern factories don't have white coated Inspectors any more. The production operators are responsible for their own quality control within procedures laid down by a Quality Control Department. Nowadays good company's don't make rubbish and then use an army in white coats to stop the rubbish getting out of the factory. That's why modern good quality doesn't cost anything and production batch size has no impact either way on absorbing the cost of quality.

For a small one man band to mimic how to produce bad quality model trains would be easy because they wouldn't have to influence 1000 other people to behave in the same way but just :-

Build up trains even if one part is missing. Keep them on one side and try to remember to add the part later when it is delivered.

If a part is missing use the nearest sized item from another loco.

If the parts won't assemble correctly push harder or cut a bit off.

Talk to a close by operator about last nights TV while you work or use Facebook on your phone.

Miss out "unnecessary production steps" like key settings and adjustments to increase your bonus payment at the end of the week.

Keep assembling locos no matter what is going wrong. Flagging up a production problem will make the foreman not like you because his department efficiency figures will go down because of the lost time you will cause.

Remember you just work here for the money and do exactly what you are told and if that's wrong it's not your fault.

If the product isn't working or a tool has stopped doing its job it's nothing to do with you - keep going.

The design of the front bogie wheels was changed to drawing revision 2 because drawing issue 1 caused the loco to derail on points. But you have 100 of the old ones on your bench. Use them up anyway because it seems wrong to put a scrap note on those nice shiny parts and they fit anyway.

If you know that the latest delivery of packaging inserts is undersized and is bending the loco conn rods when you pack the loco keep quiet about it when your team is asked why retailers are returning a particular loco. It's management's job to find out those sort of things - and in any case they'll make you redundant one day.

There is lots more you can do to reduce quality - easy isn't it.


To improve Quality of your loco production you have to get everyone in the company to stop thinking like the above examples  in addition the locos can be designed to be assembled, shadow boards can be created to hold all the tools and gauges at a work station so if any are missing it stands out.

When you have done all this using your entire workforce via projects they run themselves since they are being paid every week keep the production in the same place and keep the workforce stable. If you move production from China to Bulgaria you will have to start all over again.

Negative?- no. Expensive? - no. Will help give your customer better quality locos that sell like hotcakes? - yes.

[Zunnan]

That still doesn't account for problems that occur by design (bogies dropping out of class 153/156 sprinters because of poorly designed mountings, anyone?). PCB A requires such and such resistor, we can save 5p per unit by using 10% tolerance items over using 5% tolerance; cheap diode Y down the road then suffers because its low tolerance is met by the result of an out of whack resistor in the circuit. Bear in mind that a 10% tolerance 100 ohm resistor can actually be anywhere in the range of ~90 to ~110 ohms, so if you design a circuit that specifies a 100 ohm resistor and what actually goes in is 90 ohms, you need to take that into account and design around it rather than assume that everything going in to that new PCB is absolutely on the ball. Or better still, simplify the PCB so that fewer components are needed. The problem is that British customers want all the bells and whistles but aren't prepared to pay the price that good quality commands on small volume production runs. Using soft brush material in motors too, it may be cheaper to produce, it may even conduct better, but the service life is greatly reduced and it causes all sorts of problems during that limited life...take it into conosideration at the design stage and make the thing servicable or at the very least more readily replaceable by producing spares. So everything gets designed and made down to a price, and still people moan when a model they want costs £100.

If you open up a Kato model, you'd be surprised at how simple and well designed they are. There is less to go wrong with them, less components to assemble poorly, less parts to engineer to a high standard. Which makes it considerably easier to produce an absolutely cracking product.