Continuing the Hattons/Farish Discussion which is not specifically about Hattons

[njee20]

Seeing as that was the most active thread on here for days and it just got locked for being a whisker off topic, at about it's busiest, with still 25 people viewing it, let's carry it on here...

From @Dr Al

I'd agree that it seems strange not to re-run these - there's definitely large demand for them if secondhand is anything to go by. They aren't perfect, and could be improved tooling, but are still a solid model.

But Bachmann aren't alone in making strange choices when it comes to re-runs - Dapol have never come back to the Voyager 221s - maybe a slightly older tooling compared to modern, but still very decent, and the demand again appears huge for them, inflating secondhand prices enormously.

I suspect it's all down to factory time - do they spend it on older models; or on new ones that are long lagging behind, something both N manufacturers (Dapol and Farish) are guilty of.

I'm not so sure, it'll be interesting to see on the Farish Voyager re-release if it ever comes, the second hand market seems to have cooled a little, and obviously a brand needs to be confident they can sell an entire batch. The second hand prices on Farish 220s are almost certainly markedly cheaper than the new ones will retail for.

Manufacturers do seem hamstrung by lead times. Dapol FGW HST buffets at their peak went for over £100 second hand. They re-ran them, and there's still stock on the shelves.

[Dr Al]

I'm not so sure, it'll be interesting to see on the Farish Voyager re-release if it ever comes, the second hand market seems to have cooled a little, and obviously a brand needs to be confident they can sell an entire batch. The second hand prices on Farish 220s are almost certainly markedly cheaper than the new ones will retail for.

220 is a different kettle of fish to the 221 - the Farish 220 has aspects that folks don't like (couplings, and the slow top speed), so have always been cheaper. Mind you, so does the Dapol 220 which also was never re-run.

It's the 221 from Dapol that's commanding the high values, and was a generally better model - I would have thought that would be a wise re-run given they have the tooling. But hey-ho, I may be way off!

Cheers,
Alan

[red_death]

I suspect re-running the 221 would be a very smart choice! Particularly as some of Virgin's have started to appear in the flowing silk vinyls (at least 221101).

On the more general point that Dr Al raised about Hattons becoming a player in the N market - it will be interesting to see where they go. They have probably the best set of data on customer habits so should have a good idea where to focus effort. The Beyer Garratt is a real statement loco, but they might find some of the more "mundane" products ultimately more rewarding eg the FEA-S, the warwells etc etc.

I think one of the things that is interesting as more companies move into manufacturing is that the R&D plus checking of CAD/EP samples/painted samples etc is time consuming and perhaps more importantly it is a different skill set to that of a "traditional" retailer.

Definitely interesting times!

Cheers Mike

[njee20]

220 is a different kettle of fish to the 221 - the Farish 220 has aspects that folks don't like (couplings, and the slow top speed), so have always been cheaper. Mind you, so does the Dapol 220 which also was never re-run.

It's the 221 from Dapol that's commanding the high values, and was a generally better model - I would have thought that would be a wise re-run given they have the tooling. But hey-ho, I may be way off!

I personally prefer the Farish 220 (although yes the top speed is rubbish!), but even the 221s aren't selling for big money, the last few on eBay were £149, £121 and £80 (I assume not working), and I picked up a sound fitted one (admittedly a Loksound 3.5) for £160 earlier this year. I can't see them getting a re-release under that price point. The market definitely seems cooler than a year ago or so.

I agree Mike that I think their subsequent models (if they come) will be a clearer statement of intent. Clearly the Garrett was conceived at a time when they probably weren't considering going against Bachmann et al, which they may now be. Whilst it's already crowded with two models I'd love to see their 66 scaled down, with sound provision, although I suspect that's too much of a gamble for them given the sheer number of Dapol/Farish ones that have sold.

[trkilliman]

I think it is interesting times, with more manufacturers coming along.

Many will have been miffed at the outcome of DJM, so if emerging manufacturers  have the means to actually produce models upfront, and in a reasonable time frame I'm sure they will pick up a lot of trade.

I wonder how many people who had shown an interest in certain Farish and Dapol models with Hatton's just became cheesed off with the waiting, and spent their earmarked cash elsewhere?

Hatton's will surely not have taken their decision lightly. Starting with a Beyer-Garrett if it hits the mark then almost anything else is possible.

I wonder if Farish will go into overdrive to get long awaited stuff to market before Hatton's entry?  Hatton's might even have a surprise or two up their sleeves...we'll see.

[njee20]

It's interesting that DJMs products all went into the Hatton's "wish list" feature. Mike's point about Hatton's data is an interesting one, they have a lot of market insight.

I really hope that they do move more into manufacturing and that it kicks Bachmann up the backside to actually deliver things, rather than announce them and sit on them for 5 years with no progress whatsoever!

[jpendle]

I'm beginning to wonder if Bachman are reassessing the whole N Gauge market. I don't think they'll pull out but I'm wondering if them being 'all things to all N Gauge modellers'  is actually no longer a good strategy.

Revolution seem to have hit a deep vein with their ultra modern releases, I for one am in for all of them, but I suspect my modelling interests align closely with Ben and Mike's.

Dapol also seem to be keeping up with the times with the CL68, plus the HIA's and the GBRF/Freightliner twin boxes.

Then there's Realtrack with their PCA tanks and, hopefully, Cavalex with their CL91 etc.

Not to mention Kato with the proposed CL800/801/802.

Perhaps the generational shift away from steam has finally happened. BTW I'm 57, from the North West of England, and I have no recollection of steam whatsoever, I was 5 going on 6 when steam disappeared.

Now I'm not trying to put anyone's hackles up, and I think there is a substantial market for steam and green diesels, but perhaps the 'traditional' norms of the market are changing and Bachman are struggling to figure out which way to jump.

BTW I don't think any of this applies to OO as the market is so much bigger.

Regards,

John P

[Dr Al]

I personally prefer the Farish 220 (although yes the top speed is rubbish!), but even the 221s aren't selling for big money, the last few on eBay were £149, £121 and £80 (I assume not working), and I picked up a sound fitted one (admittedly a Loksound 3.5) for £160 earlier this year. I can't see them getting a re-release under that price point. The market definitely seems cooler than a year ago or so.

It may well be cooler now - though they were regularly hitting £275 for the X-country and £250 for the Virgin sets not that long ago - it may just be the summer lull, as a lot of prices have appeared down in the last few months.

Cheers,
Alan

[Dr Al]

Starting with a Beyer-Garrett if it hits the mark then almost anything else is possible.

This is true. I think though that where it'll be very interesting to see is the availability, the after sales service, and the spares availability. These are the areas they can swipe a large advantage over other competitors if they choose to. I suspect their fingers are more on the pulse than many in these areas.

It's encouraging that they appear to be much more monitoring the media, social, forums etc, and have already changed plans on the Garratt to change from single motor drive to dual motor drive, after many expressed concern on the potential model's capability, which can only be a good sign.

On the 66, it'll be interesting to see if they consider doing a top end model in N - the will have all the research available to them, and both the Dapol and Farish models have a number of factors that could be significantly improved on (running quality, weighting, DCC fitting capability particularly for sound) that perhaps there is a real market for that in N.

Would you buy a N gauge 66 from the 34 livery choices Hattons are offering in OO, if they were to hypothetically offer a market leading 66 in N?

Cheers,
Alan

[Thorpe Parva]

Starting with a Beyer-Garrett if it hits the mark then almost anything else is possible.

Yes it's a bold move; I have one on pre-order. An N Gauge Class 28 would be another winner in my opinion.

[njee20]

Starting with a Beyer-Garrett if it hits the mark then almost anything else is possible.

On the 66, it'll be interesting to see if they consider doing a top end model in N - the will have all the research available to them, and both the Dapol and Farish models have a number of factors that could be significantly improved on (running quality, weighting, DCC fitting capability particularly for sound) that perhaps there is a real market for that in N.

Would you buy a N gauge 66 from the 34 livery choices Hattons are offering in OO, if they were to hypothetically offer a market leading 66 in N?

I certainly would, I've got about 25 from Dapol/Farish, and although I'd not rush out and sell up en masse, I'd certainly have a few 'high end' ones and probably transition across gradually. I spoke to the guy at Hatton's about them at Warley, clearly they play their cards close to their chests, but he didn't laugh and rule it out! That said, sound-ready with good haulage remains a bit of a holy grail in (British) N for now! Obviously I'm sure Ben and Mike will step up to the plate with the 92 however...

[jacowin80]

Watching the big trouble in little toy town program at the start of the year I got the feeling that one of the reasons Hatton's brought out there own 66 was that they were sick of waiting for Hornby etc to bring out the liverys that sell.  There is even a scene on the program showing the Hatton's boss complaining to Hornby after the relased there new models.  Now they can't sell Farish 66's shrinking there oo one would fill the gap that the Dapol one doesn't and stop modelers from going elsewhere. 

[guest311]

I may be wrong, but I think that most people buy a model that they want.

so if I want a class 99 diesel in BR large logo blue with highland rail markings and number, and a manufacturer makes one, and I haven't heard horrendous stories about their reliability / workmanship / accuracy etc, and I can get a decent price, then I will buy it, whether it is Dapol / Farish / or whoever.

if a certain seller can't provide it, but another can, then I'll go there for it.

what, IMHO, it does do is get rid of loyalty.

many years / decades ago I moved to US outline HO because of the quality and detail for price compared to the bricks being sold in OO  by the likes of Hornby and Triang.

when I decided to move to N, Farish was the default make, and I tended to only buy other makes if what I wanted was not available from Farish, sort of loyalty.

my fear is that the present situation, matched by the silly prices that some manufacturers are charging, will lead to a reduction in purchasing, and so give them an excuse to withdraw.

just my view, and probably wrong, but there it is for what it is worth.