Loco hauled Mk3 coach rakes

[Jack]

I'm thinking of using Class 47's with Mk3 coaches, would there have been a TGS or a Mk2 Brake Van on the end of the rake? I'm aware that Mk3 loco hauled coaches had buffers.

If I've got this idea completely wrong can someone steer me in the right direction please.

[point blank]

Prior to the DVT's being introduced the majority of the Mk3 rakes on the WCML had a Mk1 BG at the end of the train.
There were 3 Mk3 BFO coaches in service (17173-5) but no further examples were built.

[edwin_m]

As well as not having buffers, the HST Mk3 stock has different electrical arrangements for air-conditioning etc that can only be powered by HST power cars.  Hence you wouldn't see the loco-hauled and HST Mk3s mixed up in the same train, except possibly for works transfers.  The TGS design was only built for HSTs. 

I agree about the WCML Mk3 sets normally having a Mk1 BG.  The only other regular use for hauled Mk3s in the 70s/80s was in the Glasgow-Edinburgh sets which were push-pulled by Class 47 with a cab-fitted Mk2 brake second on the other end (known in converted form as DBSO and some still in use on Network Rail test trains).  More recently I believe the Rail Blue Charters rake included a Mk2 BSO. 

[Chris]

And not forgetting the DBSOs used in the Anglia region, albeit usually with Class 86s, but again these were used on mk3 stock such as here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dwbphotos/6267051751/#

[Karhedron]

The big question is what service is the OP seeking to reproduce? If it is the Edinburgh to Glasgow shuttle then a rake of Mk3s with a Mk2 DBSO is the answer. Most loco hauled Mk3 rakes would have been on the WCML where an electric loco (rather than a 47) would have been used.

47s used on cross-country services (originally IC and later Virgin) would normally have hauled rakes of air-conditioned Mk2 coaches rather than Mk3s.

I believe there was one exception which was a summer Saturdays service from Manchester/Liverpool - Paignton around the year 1990. This consisted of an air-conditioned set complete with DVT at one end. However it was not used in push-pull mode so on the south-bound journey the loco was coupled on the front of the DVT.

Here is a pic of the service. I think these coaches air Mk2 air-cons but I have heard that Mk3 rakes were used sometimes.

http://i515.photobucket.com/albums/t352/christrerise/Shop%20Images/928.jpg

I saw some pictures of this service on Flickr before it went down but I am sure others can be found if necessary. This is a bit of a limited working but if you are looking for an excuse to use the nice Dapol Mk3s without wires or an HST then this is one of the few options.

This site may also be of use.

http://sulzerpower.com/virginendof.html

[point blank]

Most loco hauled Mk3 rakes would have been on the WCML where an electric loco (rather than a 47) would have been used.

Don't forget the parts of the WCML that are not under the wires. Class 47's were the booked traction for the Mk3 sets on the London Euston to Blackpool North services between Preston and Blackpool. I may be mistaken but I recall some of the the Holyhead to Euston services went over to Mk3's with class 47's between Crewe and Holyhead.
Then there were the weekend diversions over the S&C between Carlisle and Preston and also at certain times of the year services were diverted via Manchester.

[Chris]

They do the same here with the Class 90 loco-hauled sets from Norwich to Great Yarmouth in the summer. The 47 swaps ends though.


Brundall Station for 47828 dragging 90009 "Diamond Jubilee" 30/06/2012

[dr deltic]

Prior to 1988 when the widespread use of Mk3 DVT's became commonplace on WCML rakes of Mk3's, BG's were the norm at the south end of formation in front of the first class vehicles.
Mk2 air con brake seconds were not unheard of either but at the opposite end of the train.
Loco hauled MK3's were indeed buffer fitted but an all Mk3 rake including the rare Mk3 BFO were virtually unheard off and they seemed to form part of the short lived Pullman services that ran with Mk3 FO's being named from 1985-88ish.

HST trailers require a 3 phase ac supply for on board systems and as such need a suitable generator car when loco hauled, and these were in the form of Mk1 BG's fitted with power plants to supply same. At the other end a suitable buffer fitted air braked coach would be provided to enable a loco to be attached.
Coaches and BG's are able to couple using their buckeye couplings. Interestingly, all buckeye fitted loco hauled stock is fitted with retractable buffers and when coupled together should be in the retracted position, all buffing forces taken by the buckeye coupling and gangway connection.

Non rail freight class 90's,91's and 33/1 and 73 are attached to loco hauled stock in the same manner.
The same coupling arrangement is used by all buckeye fitted EMU's on their outer ends (all gone now anyway sadly!)

If you look at the images of the buffer fitted HST power cars that were used briefly with the class 91's you can way up that the HST power car was providing an auxiliary supply for the coaches and also a remote driving position. Some of the TGS coaches did gain buffers however during that period!

Hope this is of some use but tbh, just go through the net for your chosen period looking for images on the region you want to portray or invest in some of the cracking books out their still!
HST trailers other than the prototype HST were not fitted with buffers 

[Adam1701D]

I had quite a few spins on the 91 + HST hybrid sets - with nearly 9000hp on tap for 8 coaches, these really rocketed! Originally the plan was to have the HST power car ticking over only to provide train heat but it was found that the engine didn't like this and needed to be on full!

There was another interesting ex-HST set in use on the ECML with 89001, mainly on the Peterborough service - a blue/grey set with an Intercity TGS, HST DVT and a blue.grey Mk1 BG as a translator.