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General Category => Crowdfunding => DJModels => Topic started by: njee20 on June 04, 2019, 10:59:23 AM

Title: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 04, 2019, 10:59:23 AM
After Dave's bizarre announcement on May 1st, followed by a period of silence he has today changed the registered address of the company to that of an business turnaround & recovery company.

I'd strongly counsel anyone who has funds with Dave for pre-orders or crowdfunded projects to get in touch with them sharpish and find out the score. This is not something a healthy business does.

CG Recovery (https://cg-recovery.com/about-us/).

RM Web thread (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/145052-djm-is-this-the-end/).
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Newportnobby on June 04, 2019, 11:14:01 AM
Agreed..............sadly
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bob G on June 04, 2019, 11:22:47 AM
Bad news for the hobby and for Dave.
Remember for everyone who wagered a hundred on a King or two, Dave has invested and lost a lot more.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: crewearpley40 on June 04, 2019, 11:44:34 AM
Very sensible to take a wise cautious approach
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 04, 2019, 11:46:19 AM
Mmm, if you look at the 49 companies under control of CG here (https://www.companieshousedata.co.uk/a/178546) none only two are going concerns (NGS-PO read the list more carefully than me!). All of their team are insolvency practitioners. If you read their "procedures" the full list of services they offer are:

- Restructuring
- Solvent Liquidation
- Administration
- Insolvent Liquidation
- Company Voluntary Arrangement
- Compulsory Liquidation

Business turnaround is a fuzzy way of saying "we're the last place you come". I'll eat my hat if it's anything to do with legal issues with the Chinese and setting up new entities. That's not to say that we're not going to see "Dave Jones Trains" rise from the ashes, but would you honestly trust him if that happened!?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: NGS-PO on June 04, 2019, 11:51:44 AM
Mmm, if you look at the 49 companies under control of CG here (https://www.companieshousedata.co.uk/a/178546) none are going concerns. All of their team are insolvency practitioners. If you read their "procedures" the full list of services they offer are:

- Restructuring
- Solvent Liquidation
- Administration
- Insolvent Liquidation
- Company Voluntary Arrangement
- Compulsory Liquidation

Business turnaround is a fuzzy way of saying "we're the last place you come". I'll eat my hat if it's anything to do with legal issues with the Chinese and setting up new entities. That's not to say that we're not going to see "Dave Jones Trains" rise from the ashes, but would you honestly trust him if that happened!?

To be fair, if you expand the list out to 100, it shows a total of 50 companies. Two are active.

That said, as much as I hate to admit it, my assessment matches yours. (Not because it's your assessment, but because I want a King and a Class 17 - and of course because it is a person's livelihood.)

Best

Scott
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bealman on June 04, 2019, 11:53:44 AM
I know hindsight is easy, but I've been monitoring this from what is a remote place, and I could see it coming ages ago.

Sorry to all involved.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 04, 2019, 12:07:06 PM
Yep, agreed, struggling to be surprised. Particularly since the bizarre May 1st announcement and total clamming up afterward.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 04, 2019, 12:08:59 PM
I know hindsight is easy, but I've been monitoring this from here, and could see it coming ages ago.

Sorry to all involved.

I just spoke to the company and the company goes insolvent today.

They are trying to get their heads around the crowdfunding however there appears to be a problem getting any tooling released by the Chinese.

They do believe there may be a way to recover by claiming on card payments and they will issue paperwork indicating and quantifying the value of claims.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Karhedron on June 04, 2019, 12:15:11 PM
There is a template here that you can use to reclaim from your credit card company. I think all of Dave's locos were >£100 so you should be fully covered, even if you have only paid the deposit.

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/letter/letter-to-credit-card-if-company-goes-bust (https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/letter/letter-to-credit-card-if-company-goes-bust)

A sad day for everyone who backed Dave, Dave himself and the hobby as a whole. :(
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: NGS-PO on June 04, 2019, 12:19:17 PM
I know hindsight is easy, but I've been monitoring this from here, and could see it coming ages ago.

Sorry to all involved.

I just spoke to the company and the company goes insolvent today.

They are trying to get their heads around the crowdfunding however there appears to be a problem getting any tooling released by the Chinese.

They do believe there may be a way to recover by claiming on card payments and they will issue paperwork indicating and quantifying the value of claims.

David do you mean you spoke to DJM or you spoke to CG Recovery?

Best

Scott
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: emjaybee on June 04, 2019, 12:21:44 PM
It's never good to lose any small business, especially in our hobby sphere.

It had started to feel like a ponzi situation though, deposits of one thing funding the previous thing.

Such a shame to lose a manufacturer. I hope those that stumped up deposits can reclaim them.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 04, 2019, 12:26:59 PM
I know hindsight is easy, but I've been monitoring this from here, and could see it coming ages ago.

Sorry to all involved.

I just spoke to the company and the company goes insolvent today.

They are trying to get their heads around the crowdfunding however there appears to be a problem getting any tooling released by the Chinese.

They do believe there may be a way to recover by claiming on card payments and they will issue paperwork indicating and quantifying the value of claims.

David do you mean you spoke to DJM or you spoke to CG Recovery?

Best

Scott

CG
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: daveg on June 04, 2019, 12:33:16 PM
Sad and disappointing news.

Tough for Dave Jones and his family.

Hope all can be resolved without too much pain and anguish.

Dave G
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 04, 2019, 12:34:38 PM
I wanted to establish if it was a prepackaged administration or an insolvency.  Looks to be the latter but itís not finalised yet.

It looks as if Dave stupidly  ďtrustedĒ the Chinese manufacturers yet again.

I did ask if the tooling was the property of the crowdfunders and that is what has got them stumped.

Chinese business law and contracts are set up to favour the home team and do not reflect our business practices.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: JonHarbour on June 04, 2019, 12:37:02 PM
I've just sent them a message outlining my concerns over the King class. I'm awaiting a response.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 04, 2019, 12:39:44 PM
Unless there is a buyer the king is dead unless the Chinese get permission to keep and own the tooling in lieu of monies owed and offer it direct.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: joe cassidy on June 04, 2019, 12:40:11 PM
I assume that the liquidator's job is to sell the assets of DJM in order to pay the creditors.

I hope that the work done on projects such as the King might be saleable and the likes of Revolution Trains might put in an offer ?

Best regards,


Joe
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 04, 2019, 12:43:16 PM
I assume that the liquidator's job is to sell the assets of DJM in order to pay the creditors.

I hope that the work done on projects such as the King might be saleable and the likes of Revolution Trains might put in an offer ?

Best regards,


Joe

Itís the Chinese not releasing the assets that has caused the situation.  They no doubt are claiming they are owed money.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: longbow on June 04, 2019, 12:47:01 PM
The disputed tooling surely refers to the Class 17 as no other current project got to that stage AFAIK.

It's very unlikely that DJM's customers would have any rights over the tooling and in any case they have a much better chance of getting money back from the credit card company than from a Chinese manufacturer.


Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: joe cassidy on June 04, 2019, 12:55:39 PM
What's to stop Revolution Trains (or someone else) buying the IP for the King (now we know why Dave made a big deal out of the IP thing) and continuing the project with the same partner they are using for the 56xxx ?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 04, 2019, 12:58:36 PM
It depends what stage it's at. If all Dave has is some CADs, then probably nothing, and it would be the job of the administrators to try and realise as much as possible from the sale of the assets.

Whether they'd want to though...
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Steven B on June 04, 2019, 01:02:38 PM
Did the King ever get to the tooling stage? I don't believe so, leaving the CAD as the only asset for the King project. I'd imagine anyone else wanting to produce a King would do just as well to start from scratch as each company will have their own way of doing things - shared drive components etc.

It'll be more interesting to see what happens to the tooling that does exist - Mermaids and the disputed class 17.

Steven B
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: joe cassidy on June 04, 2019, 01:03:05 PM
The liquidator will sell everything that's saleable including such items as Dave's car, computer, telephone, etc., if these are the propertyof DJM.

Hopefully they will give Dave first option to buy this personal stuff.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 04, 2019, 01:03:57 PM
The disputed tooling surely refers to the Class 17 as no other current project got to that stage AFAIK.

It's very unlikely that DJM's customers would have any rights over the tooling and in any case they have a much better chance of getting money back from the credit card company than from a Chinese manufacturer.

The insolvency man was being very cagey but he did not believe they would be able to get their hands on the king tooling  QED its happened again.

IP is irrelevant if the IP owner goes bust and depends if the insolvency practitioner sells it.   You would only need it if you wanted to continue manufacturing from DJ tooling and in practice a fresh start would be cheaper for a manufacturer unless you were the company holding the tooling.

This is all company law stuff.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 04, 2019, 01:05:12 PM
The liquidator will sell everything that's saleable including such items as Dave's car, computer, telephone, etc., if these are the propertyof DJM.

Hopefully they will give Dave first option to buy this personal stuff.

It's their role to make as much money as possible for the creditors, so Dave shouldn't have preferential rights to anything he's bought on the business.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: joe cassidy on June 04, 2019, 01:08:59 PM
The liquidators are pragmatic.

They won't float a tender (which costs money) to sell personal items that are worth a few hundred quid.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: joe cassidy on June 04, 2019, 01:13:19 PM
I don't thing the liquidator would refuse if someone offered to pay a few hundred quid for Dave's drawings, files, notes etc. for the King.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 04, 2019, 01:24:30 PM
But why would a manufacturer do that? It's always said that the CADs are cheap, imagine another brand took them on, then discovered some glaring omission, or that their intended mechanism required significant re-working or anything like that. Given that there are no tools or anything, so significant investment will still be required, if I was a manufacturer I'd think long and hard before taking on someone else's CADs.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Papyrus on June 04, 2019, 01:31:42 PM
I never had any dealings with Mr Jones or his products but it seems to me he was a better model-maker than businessman.

All hail RevolutioN, therefore, for doing it properly!

Cheers,

Chris
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: broadsword on June 04, 2019, 01:36:10 PM
Not too surprised by all this, I used to check the website and as the list of models
got bigger the timelines and progress charts got longer. I worked for a company
which did insolvency , administration etc. In a niche business like this the creditors
will probably end up with hee haw.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 04, 2019, 02:01:23 PM
The only hope is if the Chinese company who has done the work so far takes it on, possibly with a new sponsor, and if they are owed money its the only way they might get their money back.

A question that needs answered is did Dave put the IP in his name or the company.  He may have the IP in his name and given a licence to DJ models.  In this case the liquidator wont be able to touch the IP and we might see a new company "Pheonix Ltd" about to produce kings, and he would certainly be able to block the Chinese from making copies.

As I said earlier we do not have enough information.

One point is clear, the business we paid deposits to is dead (or will be very soon) and we should be claiming back our money against our credit card payments if we can regardless.  I am.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Paddy on June 04, 2019, 02:14:59 PM
This is very sad.  Dave did some good work (on models) when at Dapol (no idea if it was profitable) and initially there seemed a lot of promise when he went solo.  For me though, there was too much over promising and not enough delivery from DJM (Shark being a classic example).  I get the impression that the capital costs/risks with model making are just too high for a one man band.

There is no doubt that Dave has talents when it comes to model making so hopefully one of the other companies may give him a job.

My thoughts are with Dave and his family though.  Whatever the cause of these events, I am sure Dave is devastated that his dream did not work out.

Paddy
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: red_death on June 04, 2019, 02:32:58 PM
I can't (and won't) comment on DJM's situation as I don't know the full details.

As general background about model development in China:

- IP ownership has been done to death recently here and on RMweb. Even if it offers any salvation/protection for designs it is only useful if that IP is an asset of a company. Frankly in most cases it is worthless without the next stage...
- which is CAD, which should be a tangible asset of the company but CAD is relatively cheap and you'd want to be sure how accurate it is and whether both the tool design and mechanical/electrical design was sound. Ownership of the CAD will depend on the agreement between a designer and a commissioner - for example Revolution has ownership of the CAD (which has allowed us to move projects when necessary). Which leads on to...
- tooling - this is where the big money is both in terms of cash investment and in terms of potential assets. Like CAD depending on the agreement between commissioner and factory there are different possibilities about who owns the tooling - for Revolution (apart from the Pendolino which is Rapido's) we own the tooling and again can use it as we want even with different factories. If there is any question of ownership then proof of ownership should be relatively straightforward - we set out arrangements for each project, we are invoiced at agreed stages and can demonstrate proof of the various invoices. Final part...
- production - production won't begin until tooling is complete and agreed (and presumably paid for). Production is a unit cost per model with normally minimum numbers for totals and variants (of: model, details, liveries and/or numbers). Normally a deposit is asked for following a purchase order with the balance due at a final agreed date once production is complete.

There is a caveat to all of the points about moving CAD and tooling etc - there is an element of trust at both ends whether China or the UK ie the various factories often invest a lot of effort and money before they are paid and trust that they will be paid as agreed. Conversely we all have to be aware that China is a considerable distance away and that poses potential problems and risks of itself (as well as differences in language and legal systems). 

For the sake of brevity (in an already lengthy post!) I haven't included every little stage as there are a lot of approval stages, nor have I included research stages.

Our experience has been (bearing in mind we are working with a number of different sources now) that everyone we have dealt with has been very professional, taken a huge amount of pride in their work, done what they said they would in return for fair payment.

As I said none of that is meant as any comment on DJM, other than to set out both our experiences and to hopefully give anyone concerned some more background as to what the situation is like when commissioning model trains from China.

Cheers, Mike
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bob G on June 04, 2019, 03:00:19 PM
Since all this kicked off with the issues over the tooling of the 17 and IIRC the OO 74, I hope it doesnít put the fear of whatsit up all the people who have successfully crowdfunded other very successful projects.
It is obvious in any business relationship that trust between parties is essential. As soon as this breaks down, for whatever reason, I canít see a good outcome.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 04, 2019, 03:05:53 PM
Yes, you have to imagine that this will lead people to be more reticent to part with funds for future models, which is unlikely to be good, particularly for new entrants to the market.

FWIW - Phil Parker over on RMWeb has spoken to CG&Co who have said that they've not yet been formally appointed and aren't providing any information. Clearly this is at odds with what Snowwolflair was told.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 04, 2019, 03:09:19 PM
Yes, you have to imagine that this will lead people to be more reticent to part with funds for future models, which is unlikely to be good, particularly for new entrants to the market.

FWIW - Phil Parker over on RMWeb has spoken to CG&Co who have said that they've not yet been formally appointed and aren't providing any information. Clearly this is at odds with what Snowwolflair was told.

Try reading my post before spouting rubbish.

Quote
I wanted to establish if it was a prepackaged administration or an insolvency.  Looks to be the latter but itís not finalised yet.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: themadhippy on June 04, 2019, 03:10:35 PM
Quote
I assume that the liquidator's job is to sell the assets of DJM in order to pay the creditors.
:smiley-laughing:
First grab goes to the tax man and custom and excise,theoretically creditors come next,but in my experience the company doing the insolvency make sure they get there  lump next,regardless that the small amount owed  to a small businesses can often mean the difference between sink or swim.Even more galling is when the "insolvent" company  re emerges a few months later with the same management and equipment but under a slightly different name.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 04, 2019, 03:14:24 PM
Try reading my post before spouting rubbish.

Quote
I wanted to establish if it was a prepackaged administration or an insolvency.  Looks to be the latter but itís not finalised yet.

Calm down love - that appears to be more information than Phil was given, that's all I said, I didn't say either of you were wrong!

Quote
I assume that the liquidator's job is to sell the assets of DJM in order to pay the creditors.
:smiley-laughing:
First grab goes to the tax man and custom and excise,theoretically creditors come next,but in my experience the company doing the insolvency make sure they get there  lump next,regardless that the small amount owed  to a small businesses can often mean the difference between sink or swim.Even more galling is when the "insolvent" company  re emerges a few months later with the same management and equipment but under a slightly different name.

Not anymore, HMRC are now unsecured. Companies House article here (https://companieshouse.blog.gov.uk/2019/02/27/what-does-going-into-administration-mean/). Administrators are first, then secured creditors, then unsecured creditors, which is most people, then any shareholders get the scraps of the scraps of the scraps.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 04, 2019, 03:20:53 PM
Try reading my post before spouting rubbish.

Quote
I wanted to establish if it was a prepackaged administration or an insolvency.  Looks to be the latter but itís not finalised yet.

Calm down love - that appears to be more information than Phil was given, that's all I said, I didn't say either of you were wrong!

Quote
I assume that the liquidator's job is to sell the assets of DJM in order to pay the creditors.
:smiley-laughing:
First grab goes to the tax man and custom and excise,theoretically creditors come next,but in my experience the company doing the insolvency make sure they get there  lump next,regardless that the small amount owed  to a small businesses can often mean the difference between sink or swim.Even more galling is when the "insolvent" company  re emerges a few months later with the same management and equipment but under a slightly different name.

Not anymore, HMRC are now unsecured. Companies House article here (https://companieshouse.blog.gov.uk/2019/02/27/what-does-going-into-administration-mean/). Administrators are first, then secured creditors, then unsecured creditors, which is most people, then any shareholders get the scraps of the scraps of the scraps.

It's all about asking the correct questions, and paying attention to detail.  :D
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: themadhippy on June 04, 2019, 03:21:31 PM
Quote
Not anymore, HMRC are now unsecured.
so an even bigger slice of the pie for the  liquidators
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 04, 2019, 03:22:32 PM
The administrators are always going to get their slice!


It's all about asking the correct questions, and paying attention to detail.  :D

You did also say "the company goes insolvent today", which is quite a different claim to what Phil Parker has said.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: red_death on June 04, 2019, 03:31:40 PM
One thing that is important to add is that crowdfunding is a tool and not normally the cause of a business failure (though obviously it has different impacts).  Like any business tool it can be used well or badly.


Cheers Mike
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 04, 2019, 03:48:31 PM
The administrators are always going to get their slice!


It's all about asking the correct questions, and paying attention to detail.  :D

You did also say "the company goes insolvent today", which is quite a different claim to what Phil Parker has said.

I phoned much earlier in the day than Phil and when I phoned it had not happened and there were discussions whether they or another liquidator would be engaged.  The view was it was going to happen today (or rather it would probably be unlawful if it did not).  As we speak the company may not yet be in administration which is the first step.

What I was trying to establish was the ownership, and or hostage takers (creditors) of the IP, tooling or CAD and the chap was quite open and helpful. 

As the day has gone on and the number of calls to them has increased I suspect they have become circumspect with what they are saying.

Bottom line, make any claims to cards or PayPal ASAP.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: class37025 on June 04, 2019, 03:58:24 PM
I am just very glad that I stuck with my gut, and didn't stump up any cash towards any of these.

my decision was to wait till something was available, and then buy.

unfortunately, it seems my gut was right in this case. :(
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Thorpe Parva on June 04, 2019, 04:09:05 PM
Such a shame. I was looking forward to additional Mermaids plus the Sharks. Maybe these can be resurrected? I'll have to dig out the NGS Shark kits I had put on hold.

David
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: acko22 on June 04, 2019, 04:25:35 PM
Hi All,

Well this is a bolt out of the blue, even after his ill advised announcement last month I wasn't expecting this!
While everyone tries to dissect the future I see no point as it could still go a number of ways and we need to see how CG and CO feel is the most viable solution and go from there.

He was offering a few models I would have liked some of the models he was offering and suggesting he was planning to do but, given previous history unless I could see it in the flesh and it was positive reviews I wasn't going to give him any monies.

Given past events with Mr Jones, I shouldn't be shocked by this really with him blaming everything and everyone else despite the only common factor been him and him alone! It was a matter of time before things came to ahead in my honest opinion!






Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bartercode on June 04, 2019, 04:29:29 PM
Even if something can be recovered from this mess, confidence in DJM and its owner must surely be totally dead forever.

Just wondering how this affects Digitrains after their agreement to buy Kings - lets hope they didn't give DJM lots of money up front
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 04, 2019, 04:31:57 PM
Random thought.

Does anyone think this might be a pre-pack (an insolvency with a buyer in the wings).

This would explain the fuss over IP, as no buyer would step in until this was secure.

We shall see.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Roy L S on June 04, 2019, 05:36:10 PM

It'll be more interesting to see what happens to the tooling that does exist - Mermaids and the disputed class 17.

Steven B

And the Shark
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: joe cassidy on June 04, 2019, 05:38:08 PM
I don't know how things work in the UK but in France redundant staff get priority over other creditors.

Hopefully Dave was salaried by DJM so he will not be totally wiped out financially by the bankruptcy of DJM.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Roy L S on June 04, 2019, 06:01:02 PM
If a company is insolvent it cannot legally continue to trade, definition of "insolvent" being to be unable to meet their debts as they fall due. If this is the case here, unless there is an external injection of cash to provide liquidity (unlikely?) it looks to me as though the company is destined to be liquidated. Realisation of assets will depend on a number of factors, not least whether a Liquidator is in funds sufficient to pursue them. I suspect it will be very costly to pursue ownership of tooling in China.


Personally I am gutted for all those who appear likely to lose money, in some cases doubtless a not insignificant portion of their modelling budgets.

However, as has been mentioned elsewhere and I agree, it is not Crowdfunding that is the issue here, it is how professionally and diligently the process is managed that is the issue and if done well as it is with the likes of RevolutioN it is a great way to bring particularly niche products to Market.


Roy


Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: idlemoor on June 04, 2019, 08:30:02 PM
Random thought.

Does anyone think this might be a pre-pack (an insolvency with a buyer in the wings).

This would explain the fuss over IP, as no buyer would step in until this was secure.


Those design registrations are complete moonshine, and anybody daft enough to look on them with envy and avarice is unlikely to be more successful in business than Mr Jones.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 04, 2019, 08:41:07 PM
Random thought.

Does anyone think this might be a pre-pack (an insolvency with a buyer in the wings).

This would explain the fuss over IP, as no buyer would step in until this was secure.


Those design registrations are complete moonshine, and anybody daft enough to look on them with envy and avarice is unlikely to be more successful in business than Mr Jones.

Agreed, but if there is also a complete set of CAD to go with it (forget tooling),  a buyer (like a Mr Bachman) might offer £1 and guarantee to honer the customer deposits, a liquidator would look at it seriously as that could eliminate the majority of the creditor position.   I have seen worse positions than this work out.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Roy L S on June 04, 2019, 08:52:40 PM
Random thought.

Does anyone think this might be a pre-pack (an insolvency with a buyer in the wings).

This would explain the fuss over IP, as no buyer would step in until this was secure.


Those design registrations are complete moonshine, and anybody daft enough to look on them with envy and avarice is unlikely to be more successful in business than Mr Jones.

Agreed, but if there is also a complete set of CAD to go with it (forget tooling),  a buyer (like a Mr Bachman) might offer £1 and guarantee to honer the customer deposits, a liquidator would look at it seriously as that could eliminate the majority of the creditor position.   I have seen worse positions than this work out.

But the value of the CAD is negligible in the grand scheme of things and companies like Bachmann and Dapol will want to do their own development work from scratch. I'm also not sure why any company would take the risk of guaranteeing deposits with no assets of significant value on offer?


Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 04, 2019, 09:08:28 PM
Random thought.

Does anyone think this might be a pre-pack (an insolvency with a buyer in the wings).

This would explain the fuss over IP, as no buyer would step in until this was secure.


Those design registrations are complete moonshine, and anybody daft enough to look on them with envy and avarice is unlikely to be more successful in business than Mr Jones.

Agreed, but if there is also a complete set of CAD to go with it (forget tooling),  a buyer (like a Mr Bachman) might offer £1 and guarantee to honer the customer deposits, a liquidator would look at it seriously as that could eliminate the majority of the creditor position.   I have seen worse positions than this work out.

But the value of the CAD is negligible in the grand scheme of things and companies like Bachmann and Dapol will want to do their own development work from scratch. I'm also not sure why any company would take the risk of guaranteeing deposits with no assets of significant value on offer?

Don't take "negligible" as no value, it's worth a lot especially if you own your own factories and have in house tooling.  DJ's portfolio of designs is larger than a years new  model releases for Farish and/or Dapol and to get that for the value of the deposits £67,500 (say 1000 models at £67.50) equal to two relatively junior staff salaries including NI, would be a good deal especially if you get a class 92 and a King, possibly a class 17 and so on.  Also the balance payments will be equivalent to the factory cost so it's a nil sum gain.

We just have to wait and see.


Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bartercode on June 04, 2019, 09:10:04 PM
I get the impression that Dave was struggling to find customers for many of his proposed models, even under crowdfunding. That suggests to me that a manufacturer might do well to steer clear of such models funded in a conventional way - there just wouldn't be the sales for them.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 04, 2019, 09:39:56 PM
I can't see a pre-pack working, I'm just not sure there would be enough of interest and taking on liabilities of disgruntled customers who risk being out of pocket isn't a compelling prospect. People are clearly pursuing methods to withdraw their funds, arguably you'd get an established customer base, but it's not one I'd be keen to take on.

The 92 is a white elephant because you've got Hornby doing the "trainset" model and Accurscale stealing a march on the high end one in OO, and obviously Revolution in N. It's also just some CAD drawings. Dave has a big portfolio for sure, but much of it is the same stage as my portfolio of models. There's zero value to a manufacturer of one man's intention to deliver a product at some indeterminate point in the future!
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Fardap on June 04, 2019, 10:30:48 PM
One of the first steps they would take would be to put a holding page or message on the website.
Currently it is still live as are the pre orders on the dcc site. Maybe dcc are taking it on?
Shame it has happened but there seem to be a lot of models in the pipeline but not a lot being finished other companies have got each model to production before starting another.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 04, 2019, 10:36:38 PM
Nope, you can't actually place orders apparently, it says "no payment methods available" once you try to check out.

I imagine a holding message will go up shortly once the administrators are appointed.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: longbow on June 04, 2019, 11:13:51 PM
No doubt Digitrains will shortly suspend King pre-orders. Previously they have assured customers that monies paid to them would be fully refundable in the event of non-delivery.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Pete @ EGLM on June 04, 2019, 11:32:39 PM
You can still get as far as checkout on Digitrains website.  Obviously I didnít try to go any further..
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Graham on June 04, 2019, 11:39:48 PM
this is a shame, anything which diminishes the variety in our hobby is not a good thing. I feel sorry for all the people involved customers and staff if there were any. In any case like this it is always the management which takes the blame, regardless of who is at fault. I can only feel lucky as I have procrastinated for a long while over ordering the limited edition 92 in Stobart livery and decided those on order from Revolution were enough for now.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: dave_b on June 05, 2019, 09:38:21 AM
I get the impression that Dave was struggling to find customers for many of his proposed models, even under crowdfunding. That suggests to me that a manufacturer might do well to steer clear of such models funded in a conventional way - there just wouldn't be the sales for them.
I'm not sure that I agree with this.  There have been a number of people, both on here and on rmweb who have posted that they would have signed up for an N gauge King, but weren't prepared to take the gamble regarding whether DJM would be able to deliver or not.  Were someone else to take the King over, I'm sure it would sell.  I'm also sure that the N gauge GW mogul would have sold.  Again people were posting saying that they were interested, but were waiting on delivery of the King first.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 05, 2019, 09:45:17 AM
It's very tough to call, I followed a number of his projects but was never prepared to pay for anything upfront because I didn't like what I saw. I'd have had a 92 when it appeared (assuming it looked good), and was seriously considering an APT as 'rule 1'.

With Digitrains on board the King seems less of a gamble, and I'm sure Dave has done himself no favours with the Kernow situation on whichever model that was, but it would be hard to quantify how many people were perhaps withholding orders purely because he was the manufacturer.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bealman on June 05, 2019, 09:53:31 AM
Too many promises, not enough concrete results.

Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bob G on June 05, 2019, 10:17:29 AM
The market is very dynamic at the moment with many new crowdfund financed developers entering the OO and N markets. Hornby seems to be taking these on by pushing through their new models faster than the competitors can keep up, eg faster than the Rails terrier, DJM class 71, Dapol 61xx. I donít see Bachmann doing same, but then Hornby needs to get back into profit somehow.

If I was Dapol, Iíd see this as a good opportunity to start work on an N gauge GW mogul as they have done the cad for their OO model.
Whatever happens the N gauge market is not big enough for more than one developer to produce any loco other than a class 66. Iím not sure about the king. It still feels a bit niche even for GW modellers.

Cavalex and Accurascale have history, but as far as GT3 goes, itís another unproven developer so Iíd imagine folk would be very wary of the same happening, unless it was produced with a known partner.

Bob
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bealman on June 05, 2019, 10:29:44 AM
Bob, I agree with your points, but post #66 remains.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bartercode on June 05, 2019, 10:33:17 AM
I get the impression that Dave was struggling to find customers for many of his proposed models, even under crowdfunding. That suggests to me that a manufacturer might do well to steer clear of such models funded in a conventional way - there just wouldn't be the sales for them.
I'm not sure that I agree with this.  There have been a number of people, both on here and on rmweb who have posted that they would have signed up for an N gauge King, but weren't prepared to take the gamble regarding whether DJM would be able to deliver or not.  Were someone else to take the King over, I'm sure it would sell.  I'm also sure that the N gauge GW mogul would have sold.  Again people were posting saying that they were interested, but were waiting on delivery of the King first.

I was referring to the progress report dated 6th April on the DJM website. Most products, (but not the King) are way below target...

DJM N gauge product update April 2019
Here is a product update of all Ďin progressí DJM N gauge projects.
N gauge APT Current orders of 118 of 400 needed.
N gauge J94 current orders of 112 of 800 needed.
N gauge Mogul Current orders 236 of 1000 needed.
N gauge shark delivery November 19.
N gauge Mermaids Delivery November 19.
N gauge King minimum order number reached, tooling to commence imminently.
N gauge class 92 tooling imminent.
N gauge MK5 coaches licence granted.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Shropshire Lad on June 05, 2019, 10:42:45 AM
I would probably buy an APT if there was a decent model of it in front of me or if I could see progress before I ordered it. Likewise if they were available now I would buy a couple of Sharks and some Mermaids.
I would crowdfund some Sharks and Mermaids but only if I thought there would be a reasonable chance of delivery, I certainly wouldn't blindly give DJM any money!
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bob G on June 05, 2019, 10:46:40 AM
Bob, I agree with your points, but post #66 remains.
My post and post 66 are not exclusive.
Iím trying to judge the business potential not the man.
There have been too many comments about Daveís marmite personality and Iím trying to see past that, to where the market will go next.
We are where we are.
Bob
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: DCCDave on June 05, 2019, 10:47:21 AM
Too many promises, not enough concrete results.

Two years ago I commented that Dave was producing 'vapourware' , with lots promised for N Gauge but little delivered. On both this forum and RMWeb. I was royally slated for it.

I feel somewhat vindicated now, but also deeply sad. I was at Tings in (I think 2013) when Dave announced the Class 17, and 23 both of which I was really excited for. I hope Dave can recoup some of his losses and sell the IP for these projects to someone with the wherewithal to deliver them, but given the dispute around the Class 17 I don't hold out much hope.

Business is tough, if it only depended on enthusiasm and vision then DJM would have been onto a winner, shame really.

Cheers
Dave
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 05, 2019, 10:51:50 AM
Cavalex and Accurascale have history, but as far as GT3 goes, itís another unproven developer so Iíd imagine folk would be very wary of the same happening, unless it was produced with a known partner.

Yet people seem happy to throw money at KR Models, there doesn't (yet) seem to be that reluctance, and he's even more bristly than Dave!

Trust should be hard won and easily lost, but a lot of people don't seem to feel this!

Too many promises, not enough concrete results.

Two years ago I commented that Dave was producing 'vapourware' , with lots promised for N Gauge but little delivered. On both this forum and RMWeb. I was royally slated for it.

Dave has a huge number of detractors for whatever reason; his long lists of announcements and lack of delivery, missed deadlines, weird PR processes, lack of professionalism and 'matey' tone online etc etc, and plenty of people have been upfront for a long time in calling him out on what appears to be outright lies. There are a few posters on RMWeb who just seem to troll any thread about his products, which isn't helpful, but a lot of people have been warning about his conduct for a long time, and whilst some ardent supporters can be defensive I've not seen anyone royally slated for raising genuine concerns.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bealman on June 05, 2019, 10:54:08 AM
Indeed, to both the posts above the last one.

My post refers to the business, not the man, though in this case, I don't see how you could separate the two
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Roy L S on June 05, 2019, 11:10:33 AM
I was thinking about this last night, and without wishing to be seen as trying to stir things up, a genuine question arose the answer to which I cannot reconcile.

IF there is little cash/liquidity left in the business, and no tooling has been started on any of the crowdfunding projects, what have deposits paid to date actually been spent on?

In the case of the King as an example, we know the research had already been done for the abortive Hattons model so new CADs were needed and we have seen a 3D printed dummy model from that, but if MOQ of 1000 were needed (and we know Digitrains' 200 got it over the line) that is circa 800 x £62.50 from crowdfunders which is £50k. If the factory has not yet been instructed to commence tooling has there really been any evidence of this amount all being spent, and if it has been, how was the second tranche of £50k when requested ever going to cover tooling costs reputed as being £100k, never mind production, shipping etc.

It just doesn't stack up to me, and based on this (unless I am missisng something which I could be) it feels like it should have been pretty clear to the company that there would not be enough cash in the pot after the second tranche to deliver this model.

The micro-accounts from July 2018 are too old to provide any clarity, so again, I am not saying my conclusions are necessarily correct but if they are not what am I missing??


Roy

Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bealman on June 05, 2019, 11:19:33 AM
What I said, bottom of last page.

The company didn't work!
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bob G on June 05, 2019, 11:29:24 AM
In my business (consultancy) every project has itís own P&L account so the project manager can keep tabs on revenue and spend within each project.
Projects go wrong when lead times stretch beyond those planned, as unplanned costs will always accrue - eg salaries and dividends.
I fear this is where everything went wrong but I doubt we will ever know (nor are we entitled to know) and this then leads into one project funding a previous one. Even big businesses are guilty of this.

Bob
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: DCCDave on June 05, 2019, 11:38:39 AM
Indeed, to both the posts above the last one.

My post refers to the business, not the man, though in this case, I don't see how you could separate the two

Nope, with one man bands they are the same thing.

Cheers
Dave
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bealman on June 05, 2019, 11:44:31 AM
Thank you, Bob.  :thumbsup:

Sorry for my naive attitude, but I see it as it is, just my opinion.

I wouldn't think about any venture like that if I couldn't manage it comfortably.

It's been mismanaged.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Steven B on June 05, 2019, 12:36:33 PM
Whatever happens the N gauge market is not big enough for more than one developer to produce any loco other than a class 66. Iím not sure about the king. It still feels a bit niche even for GW modellers.

A King (30 built) is no more niche than an A4 (35 built), Merchant Navy (30 built) or a Princess Coronation (38 built). Farish felt there was a market for the Poole-era King and built & sold several thousand, before and after the Bachmann take over of the company.

If one were to be produced by Farish, Dapol or AN Other, then my guess is that it would sell well. DJ Model's could have sold well if it and other DJM models had been better managed. DJ Models promised lots but didn't deliver much - either actual models that could be bought and run, or visual progress that projects were going forward.

Duplication has happened before without manufacturers collapsing:
A4 - Farish & Minitrix
Class 47 - Farish & Minitrix
B17 - Dapol & Farish
Class 66 - Dapol & Farish
Class 220 Voyager - Dapol & Farish
(note I'm ignoring duplicates where the standard of the model was improved - e.g. Dapol A4, HST etc).

Personally, I feel there was little choice in Dave Jones' choice of models. They all could and should have sold well. When he left Dapol, Dave obviously thought he had the ability to manage the production of models without the back-office support he had at Dapol. Sadly that's proven not to be the case.

Steven B.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: class37025 on June 05, 2019, 12:56:42 PM
I see that Hattons are still listing the class 17 and class 23

https://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklist/3094212/1000589/1000635/0/dj_models_dave_jones_n_gauge_diesel_locos/prodlist.aspx (https://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklist/3094212/1000589/1000635/0/dj_models_dave_jones_n_gauge_diesel_locos/prodlist.aspx)

I sent this to them

do you feel you will still receive the class 17 and class 23 in N scale from DJ Models in view of recent announcements on line

the response was

Hi, we have not been given any information to say we will not be receiving our allocation from DJ Models. If we do get any feedback from DJ that they will not be supplying us with the models then we will let people know.

just for info
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 05, 2019, 12:57:40 PM
DJ Models Ltd has now gone into administration and a notice will be appearing in the London Gazette in a few days. 

There will not be any immediate information available and I have been told it will be about three weeks before any visible actions. 

There have been a number of enquiries about the business and these will be pursued, however, as you would expect they cannot be more forthcoming than that. 

Expect a notice requesting creditors to contact them, but not yet, and their intent is also to make contact directly.

The Administrator contact is Mr Steven Mason, although he asks at this stage not to be contacted as there is nothing more he can say at this time.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Cape Town Trev on June 05, 2019, 01:07:59 PM
I was thinking about this last night, and without wishing to be seen as trying to stir things up, a genuine question arose the answer to which I cannot reconcile.

IF there is little cash/liquidity left in the business, and no tooling has been started on any of the crowdfunding projects, what have deposits paid to date actually been spent on?

In the case of the King as an example, we know the research had already been done for the abortive Hattons model so new CADs were needed and we have seen a 3D printed dummy model from that, but if MOQ of 1000 were needed (and we know Digitrains' 200 got it over the line) that is circa 800 x £62.50 from crowdfunders which is £50k. If the factory has not yet been instructed to commence tooling has there really been any evidence of this amount all being spent, and if it has been, how was the second tranche of £50k when requested ever going to cover tooling costs reputed as being £100k, never mind production, shipping etc.

It just doesn't stack up to me, and based on this (unless I am missisng something which I could be) it feels like it should have been pretty clear to the company that there would not be enough cash in the pot after the second tranche to deliver this model.

The micro-accounts from July 2018 are too old to provide any clarity, so again, I am not saying my conclusions are necessarily correct but if they are not what am I missing??


Roy

Perhaps Dave saw the above situation or someone pointed it out to him and hence the help of an Administrator / Liquidator was sought.
I suspect cash was spent in dribs and dabs on legitimate expenses but as you point out the remaining cash became too little for the tooling cost.  So either ask for EXTRA cash from crowd funders or "close up shop".

The main stream manufacturers can spread their overheads over a larger base of models.  Dave was announcing ever more models and in some cases getting deposits for them but..............Peter could not pay Paul
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Karhedron on June 05, 2019, 01:08:28 PM
DJ Models Ltd has now gone into administration and a notice will be appearing in the London Gazette in a few days. 

Thanks for the info. For people who paid by credit card, does going into administration mean we can start the process of attempting to claim back from our credit card companies under section 75?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 05, 2019, 01:11:20 PM
DJ Models Ltd has now gone into administration and a notice will be appearing in the London Gazette in a few days. 

Thanks for the info. For people who paid by credit card, does going into administration mean we can start the process of attempting to claim back from our credit card companies under section 75?

I have started by requesting forms from my card provider. 

The London Gazette notification is the evidence they should look for to confirm the legal situation.  the card provider will try and drag it out but you need to persist.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: austinbob on June 05, 2019, 01:12:18 PM
Don't know if anyone else has noticed but DJ website appears to be still accepting payments. Odd for a Company supposedly in administration?
 :hmmm:
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bob G on June 05, 2019, 01:13:33 PM
Sorry for my naive attitude, but I see it as it is
Gut feeling is often the best guide in absence of other information
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bob G on June 05, 2019, 01:21:12 PM
Whatever happens the N gauge market is not big enough for more than one developer to produce any loco other than a class 66. Iím not sure about the king. It still feels a bit niche even for GW modellers.

A King (30 built) is no more niche than an A4 (35 built), Merchant Navy (30 built) or a Princess Coronation (38 built). Farish felt there was a market for the Poole-era King and built & sold several thousand, before and after the Bachmann take over of the company.

Duplication has happened before without manufacturers collapsing:
A4 - Farish & Minitrix
Class 47 - Farish & Minitrix
B17 - Dapol & Farish
Class 66 - Dapol & Farish
Class 220 Voyager - Dapol & Farish

Personally, I feel there was little choice in Dave Jones' choice of models.

Iím thinking about todays market of £150+ models, not the kettles put out by Poole Farish, and the MN has not sold well.

And I think DJMs portfolio was ok if only it had delivered earlier on its promises.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Cape Town Trev on June 05, 2019, 01:24:48 PM
Don't know if anyone else has noticed but DJ website appears to be still accepting payments. Odd for a Company supposedly in administration?
 :hmmm:
When you try to make the actual payment does it say something like "no payment method available"?  Someone on the RMWeb page said actual payment could NOT be made although the items are in the basket.

Just clarifying - or is the Administrator trying to run the company so as to sell it as a going concern - doubt it  :)
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: eddief83 on June 05, 2019, 01:32:51 PM
https://www.digitrains.co.uk/events/d-j-models-king-george-v/ (https://www.digitrains.co.uk/events/d-j-models-king-george-v/) Digitrains are saying they are in receivership now and their King model is cancelled
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Tfc49 on June 05, 2019, 02:06:33 PM
For avoidance of doubt, Digitrains are saying that DJM are in receivership and that the King project is no more.

For more information, see https://www.digitrains.co.uk/events/d-j-models-king-george-v/ (https://www.digitrains.co.uk/events/d-j-models-king-george-v/)

Digitrains are still going strong.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Shiney Sheff on June 05, 2019, 02:18:10 PM
Just read the thread on RMweb, they are saying an official announcement will be published by DJ on his website at 7.00pm tonight. Hopefully this will stop all speculation as to what has happened and what will happen in the future.

Bob
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: austinbob on June 05, 2019, 02:20:40 PM
https://www.digitrains.co.uk/events/d-j-models-king-george-v/ (https://www.digitrains.co.uk/events/d-j-models-king-george-v/) Digitrains are saying they are in receivership now and their King model is cancelled
That link also says that refunds should be forthcoming.  :)
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: NGS-PO on June 05, 2019, 02:27:57 PM
https://www.digitrains.co.uk/events/d-j-models-king-george-v/ (https://www.digitrains.co.uk/events/d-j-models-king-george-v/) Digitrains are saying they are in receivership now and their King model is cancelled
That link also says that refunds should be forthcoming.  :)

Of course that statement only applies to orders made with digitrains.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Only Me on June 05, 2019, 02:42:27 PM
Tbh not that no one saw this coming surely after the rants and strange press releases....?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Roy L S on June 05, 2019, 02:48:08 PM
Just read the thread on RMweb, they are saying an official announcement will be published by DJ on his website at 7.00pm tonight. Hopefully this will stop all speculation as to what has happened and what will happen in the future.

Bob

If the company is in Administration now the future is no longer in Dave's hands, the Administrator now has control of the company in it's entirety, and while they may elicit help from former directors to realise assets etc, directors no longer control it or have any say.


Actually I am surprised that the Adminstrators are allowing Dave to make a statment on the website and haven't already put up a banner saying that the company is now in Admin and who the Admins are.


Roy





Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: austinbob on June 05, 2019, 03:23:35 PM
https://www.digitrains.co.uk/events/d-j-models-king-george-v/ (https://www.digitrains.co.uk/events/d-j-models-king-george-v/) Digitrains are saying they are in receivership now and their King model is cancelled
That link also says that refunds should be forthcoming.  :)

Of course that statement only applies to orders made with digitrains.
>:(
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 05, 2019, 03:33:19 PM
Quote
Actually I am surprised that the Adminstrators are allowing Dave to make a statement on the website and haven't already put up a banner saying that the company is now in Admin and who the Admins are.


Roy

This, the securing of IP, and the fact the company address was moved well in advanced are not what I would expect and is why, especially with the administrators comments on interested parties, I am left wondering if this is a pre-pack.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Karhedron on June 05, 2019, 03:55:03 PM
This, the securing of IP, and the fact the company address was moved well in advanced are not what I would expect and is why, especially with the administrators comments on interested parties, I am left wondering if this is a pre-pack.

Interesting thought. If that were the case though, would Digitrains be cancelling orders already?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 05, 2019, 03:56:49 PM
This, the securing of IP, and the fact the company address was moved well in advanced are not what I would expect and is why, especially with the administrators comments on interested parties, I am left wondering if this is a pre-pack.

Interesting thought. If that were the case though, would Digitrains be cancelling orders already?

They cannot be told, just as we cannot be told (yet).
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bob G on June 05, 2019, 04:48:38 PM
Iím feeling more and more grateful as this thread pans out that Iíve got the OO 71 I wanted, got back my money for the OO 74 (although Iíd rather have had one) and have a rake of 8 mermaids.
Iíd have had two moguls and two sharks but everything else was just the wrong era or region.

Iím sorry for all the modellers who now have to try to get back their deposits.

Bob
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Roy L S on June 05, 2019, 04:55:31 PM
It is an interesting thought, but even having shed the liabilities I am not sure I understand what assets have value and are worth saving via a pre-pack Admin, certainly not the name or goodwill.


It would also seem unlikely that the former Director would purchase the assets as I doubt many in our pretty tight knit modelling community would be prepared to deal with such a "newco" knowing the history.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Roy L S on June 05, 2019, 05:20:39 PM
I
I’m feeling more and more grateful as this thread pans out that I’ve got the OO 71 I wanted, got back my money for the OO 74 (although I’d rather have had one) and have a rake of 8 mermaids.
I’d have had two moguls and two sharks but everything else was just the wrong era or region.

I’m sorry for all the modellers who now have to try to get back their deposits.

Bob

I may in time need to look upon my four Mermaids a collector's items. I'm glad I kept the boxes.


That said this sad event is probably going to see any remaining "Dutch" ones that were sticking in shops become very saleable now, be it for repainting or otherwise. They really are very nice wagons and to be fair do show what Dave could deliver.


Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: idlemoor on June 05, 2019, 05:44:27 PM
Quote
Actually I am surprised that the Adminstrators are allowing Dave to make a statement on the website and haven't already put up a banner saying that the company is now in Admin and who the Admins are.


Roy

This, the securing of IP, and the fact the company address was moved well in advanced are not what I would expect and is why, especially with the administrators comments on interested parties, I am left wondering if this is a pre-pack.

Let's try again :(

There has been no 'securing of IP' -- zero, zilch, nada -- except in Mr Jones' head.

People who refer to 'Intellectual Property' (don't get me started on 'IP') need to understand understand that it's meaningless except as an umbrella term. Copyrights, trade marks, registered designs, unregistered design rights, moral rights, database rights, patents, trade secrets, or, god help us, geographical indications and plant breeders' rights, are all different and need to be discussed with specificity.

At a superficial glance there does not appear to be a trademark registration for 'DJ Models' -- nothing to be secured.

The recent design registrations are a complete nullity. They absolutely do not cover "the CAD". Even ten minutes googling will show what a folly they are [1]. Surely nobody plotting an acquisition would be that daft.

Any copyrights (which would include CAD) exist inherently and ab initio from the creation of the works. Copyrights do not need securing. Under the Berne Conventions they are inherent. We haven't witnessed any 'securing' of copyrights because in Europe there is no procedure for that. On a work by work basis, if DJ Models commissioned any CAD, the business (and therefore the Administrators) may have exclusive licences, or DJ Models may have taken ownership on delivery. The business may have sold it on, or some copyrights may be subject to a trade dispute. Or, if Mr Jones created any CAD, he may have licensed, transferred or sold it on to the business. We simply do not know.  Edit: I originally wrote Mr Jones where I should have said DJ Models :(

Unregistered design rights are inherent, like copyrights. It's possible that unregistered design rights may subsist in any moulds or tools that exist, but whether these are assets of the business appears to be a matter of some speculation and dispute. Another complicating factor would be jurisdiction, nudge nudge wink wink.

I'm not sure whether his moral right as creator not to have his work subjected to derogatory treatment would apply to registered or unregistered designs, but to be on the safe side it might not be a good idea to make 1:148 stop-motion pr0nz with a Mermaid. I haven't looked for patents (that used to be Peco, lol) and I'm guessing that we can neglect plant breeders' rights :)

Your speculation, esteemed Mr Lair [2], about pre-pack may or may not be true, but there exists no evidence in the form of 'securing IP'.

[1] Registered designs cover the novel, non-functional aspects of a product -- the shape and the decoration. But an accurate scale model is, by definition, not novel in any of those aspects. I suspect Mr Jones' registrations  would mostly only achieve protection for a model painted in exactly the puce, cyan, yellow, etc of those CAD renderings, if such a bizarre thing ever came into existence. Just because the UK's Intellectual Property Office takes your money and puts the picture you uploaded on its website, this does not constitute validation or endorsement; they will take registration money from anybody, and similarly they will take £48 from anybody who wants to object to any of Mr Jones' registrations on a Form DF19A.

[2] No sarcasm -- I really do admire your work immensely, and hope to imitate some of it soon (poorly) -- which is why I'm here, obsessively reading your old posts :D
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Chris Morris on June 05, 2019, 06:13:53 PM
It's possible or even probable that we will see more of the models where the tooling is complete.
When LGB went belly up ( before being bought by Marklin) some copies of a few LGB models started to appear. There was much gnashing of teeth when these "fakes" came on sale but it turned out they were legal copies. Likewise aristocraft decided to call it a day some years ago while still owing money to Kadar. Since then one railcar and one power truck have been produced under the Bachmann banner. 
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 05, 2019, 06:24:45 PM
Quote
Actually I am surprised that the Adminstrators are allowing Dave to make a statement on the website and haven't already put up a banner saying that the company is now in Admin and who the Admins are.


Roy

This, the securing of IP, and the fact the company address was moved well in advanced are not what I would expect and is why, especially with the administrators comments on interested parties, I am left wondering if this is a pre-pack.

Let's try again :(

There has been no 'securing of IP' -- zero, zilch, nada -- except in Mr Jones' head.

People who refer to 'Intellectual Property' (don't get me started on 'IP') need to understand understand that it's meaningless except as an umbrella term. Copyrights, trade marks, registered designs, unregistered design rights, moral rights, database rights, patents, trade secrets, or, god help us, geographical indications and plant breeders' rights, are all different and need to be discussed with specificity.

At a superficial glance there does not appear to be a trademark registration for 'DJ Models' -- nothing to be secured.

The recent design registrations are a complete nullity. They absolutely do not cover "the CAD". Even ten minutes googling will show what a folly they are [1]. Surely nobody plotting an acquisition would be that daft.

Any copyrights (which would include CAD) exist inherently and ab initio from the creation of the works. Copyrights do not need securing. Under the Berne Conventions they are inherent. We haven't witnessed any 'securing' of copyrights because in Europe there is no procedure for that. On a work by work basis, if DJ Models commissioned any CAD, the business (and therefore the Administrators) may have exclusive licences, or DJ Models may have taken ownership on delivery. The business may have sold it on, or some copyrights may be subject to a trade dispute. Or, if Mr Jones created any CAD, he may have licensed, transferred or sold it on to the business. We simply do not know.  Edit: I originally wrote Mr Jones where I should have said DJ Models :(

Unregistered design rights are inherent, like copyrights. It's possible that unregistered design rights may subsist in any moulds or tools that exist, but whether these are assets of the business appears to be a matter of some speculation and dispute. Another complicating factor would be jurisdiction, nudge nudge wink wink.

I'm not sure whether his moral right as creator not to have his work subjected to derogatory treatment would apply to registered or unregistered designs, but to be on the safe side it might not be a good idea to make 1:148 stop-motion pr0nz with a Mermaid. I haven't looked for patents (that used to be Peco, lol) and I'm guessing that we can neglect plant breeders' rights :)

Your speculation, esteemed Mr Lair [2], about pre-pack may or may not be true, but there exists no evidence in the form of 'securing IP'.

[1] Registered designs cover the novel, non-functional aspects of a product -- the shape and the decoration. But an accurate scale model is, by definition, not novel in any of those aspects. I suspect Mr Jones' registrations  would mostly only achieve protection for a model painted in exactly the puce, cyan, yellow, etc of those CAD renderings, if such a bizarre thing ever came into existence. Just because the UK's Intellectual Property Office takes your money and puts the picture you uploaded on its website, this does not constitute validation or endorsement; they will take registration money from anybody, and similarly they will take £48 from anybody who wants to object to any of Mr Jones' registrations on a Form DF19A.

[2] No sarcasm -- I really do admire your work immensely, and hope to imitate some of it soon (poorly) -- which is why I'm here, obsessively reading your old posts :D

I don't disagree with any of this, however, if the registrations he has made are sufficient to lodge a dispute resulting in a court order preventing the sale of products prior to resolution, that threat would almost certainly stop anyone trying to "use" any of his drawings, CAD tooling etc. as it would risk a significant financial loss.

As you understand the rules of IP, as I do from years of experience, you will recognise that the majority of IP, in all its forms, are used as the basis of a negotiation position and not as a breach leading to remedy.  The legal equivalent of a spanner in the works.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 05, 2019, 06:53:01 PM
One day youíll say ďI stand correctedĒ or something, itís truly miraculous the subjects you have an extensive knowledge of. Youíve worked in IT, CAD, run factories in China, been an IP expert (despite seemingly being schooled here!); many for your entire career, amazing!  :smiley-laughing:

I do agree with you that the order of events is curious, Iíd have expected the first we knew to be a banner on the website or something. I await the 7pm announcement with curiosity.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 05, 2019, 07:01:27 PM
One day youíll say ďI stand correctedĒ or something, itís truly miraculous the subjects you have an extensive knowledge of. Youíve worked in IT, CAD, run factories in China, been an IP expert (despite seemingly being schooled here!); many for your entire career, amazing!  :smiley-laughing:


Its the result of being a Chartered Engineer a Fellow of the IET and having spent most of my forty year career here and in the Far East at the leading edge of technology, along with running companies public and private.

Having done all of that I would expect to know what I know.


Should I ask what your experience is.  :)
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: portland-docks on June 05, 2019, 07:05:09 PM
well 7pm been and gone, still no "official announcement" on dj models website....
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: snitchthebudgie on June 05, 2019, 07:15:25 PM
[Should I ask what your experience is.  :)

I got a silver Blue Peter badge....   8)
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: emjaybee on June 05, 2019, 07:18:36 PM
[Should I ask what your experience is.  :)

I got a silver Blue Peter badge....   8)

Nice!

I got a Gold Duke of Edinburgh's Award.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 05, 2019, 07:19:08 PM
A few observations from the DJ website.

the King refers to "Pre order" and "deposit" and does not refer to crowdfunding.  We were purchasing part paid goods not investing on speculation.

"Your deposit is therefore invested in this tooling"  Can this be used legally as a statement of ownership of the tooling. Probably not but worth considering.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: idlemoor on June 05, 2019, 07:24:57 PM
I don't disagree with any of this, however, if the registrations he has made are sufficient to lodge a dispute resulting in a court order preventing the sale of products prior to resolution, that threat would almost certainly stop anyone trying to "use" any of his drawings, CAD tooling etc. as it would risk a significant financial loss.

As you understand the rules of IP, as I do from years of experience, you will recognise that the majority of IP, in all its forms, are used as the basis of a negotiation position and not as a breach leading to remedy.  The legal equivalent of a spanner in the works.

As a veteran of community efforts against The SCO Group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO_Group,_Inc._v._International_Business_Machines_Corp.), I recognise that an entity that is inventing purported intellectual property rights and using them to frighten and bully others should be exposed and resisted and hung out to dry 'pour dťcourager les autres'.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: alibuchan on June 05, 2019, 07:26:50 PM
Does anyone else find the irony baffling, canít get a model out, nor the end is nigh official announcement.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 05, 2019, 07:31:49 PM
I don't disagree with any of this, however, if the registrations he has made are sufficient to lodge a dispute resulting in a court order preventing the sale of products prior to resolution, that threat would almost certainly stop anyone trying to "use" any of his drawings, CAD tooling etc. as it would risk a significant financial loss.

As you understand the rules of IP, as I do from years of experience, you will recognise that the majority of IP, in all its forms, are used as the basis of a negotiation position and not as a breach leading to remedy.  The legal equivalent of a spanner in the works.

As a veteran of community efforts against The SCO Group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCO_Group,_Inc._v._International_Business_Machines_Corp.), I recognise that an entity that is inventing purported intellectual property rights and using them to frighten and bully others should be exposed and resisted and hung out to dry 'pour dťcourager les autres'.

I don't condone the morality just reflecting the reality.  :D

SCO vs IBM that brings back memories, fortunately as a spectator.  8)
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: class37025 on June 05, 2019, 07:32:50 PM
I am disappointed that Hattons are still listing DJM products a 'pre-orders', with the exception of

https://www.hattons.co.uk/171062/dj_models_dave_jones_djm_n_rs_100013c_mermaid_side_tipping_ballast_wagon_zjv_db989466_in_civil_engineers_dutch_grey_an/stockdetail.aspx (https://www.hattons.co.uk/171062/dj_models_dave_jones_djm_n_rs_100013c_mermaid_side_tipping_ballast_wagon_zjv_db989466_in_civil_engineers_dutch_grey_an/stockdetail.aspx)

and

https://www.hattons.co.uk/171063/dj_models_dave_jones_djm_n_rs_100013d_mermaid_side_tipping_ballast_wagon_zjv_db989484_in_civil_engineers_dutch_grey_an/stockdetail.aspx (https://www.hattons.co.uk/171063/dj_models_dave_jones_djm_n_rs_100013d_mermaid_side_tipping_ballast_wagon_zjv_db989484_in_civil_engineers_dutch_grey_an/stockdetail.aspx)

surely they must be aware of the situation, and yet nothing on their site that I can see to suggest that they are prepared to stop taking pre-orders for his items.

while they only take payment when items are shipped, it would be nice if they were a bit more up front with the chances, or not, of ever seeing these items.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Only Me on June 05, 2019, 07:36:34 PM
Quite a lot of people have seen the ďepĒ of the 17, theres so much wrong with the body that to make it viable it would need about 30% or more of the cad modifying and re tooling so technically a new design not covered by ip anyway and big cost to retool..... so if someone wanted to do the 17 then IMO they would surely just do a complete recad with correct dimensions and curves and make their own tooling
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: acko22 on June 05, 2019, 07:51:34 PM
Well when it was said 7pm guess thats not 7pm BST.......
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 05, 2019, 08:01:22 PM

Should I ask what your experience is.  :)

You're very welcome to, but it's irrelevant because I'm not the one who seems to know everything!

Well when it was said 7pm guess thats not 7pm BST.......

I don't know why but I actually thought he'd meet this deadline!

surely they must be aware of the situation, and yet nothing on their site that I can see to suggest that they are prepared to stop taking pre-orders for his items.

while they only take payment when items are shipped, it would be nice if they were a bit more up front with the chances, or not, of ever seeing these items.

Given this still hasn't been officially confirmed it would be inappropriate for Hatton's to have a notice saying "FYI - it looks like Dave's gone belly up, so don't order one of these".
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: joe cassidy on June 05, 2019, 08:04:49 PM
[Should I ask what your experience is.  :)

I got a silver Blue Peter badge....   8)

I got a Gold Duke of Edinburgh's Award.


Anyone have a Crackerjack pencil?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: class37025 on June 05, 2019, 08:06:36 PM
just checked this website, ....

and absolutely NOTHING about going into liquidation, etc.

not exactly being up front about things, IMHO.

as for the 19:00 deadline, seems to me, an ex furbox mechanic with no DOE or Blue Peter badges, it seems to be gone, but what would I know ?

not even a crackerjack pencil, but always tried to watch Tis-Was, mainly for Sally James, though with SWMBO around, I would have to decline to say why  :smiley-laughing:
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: joe cassidy on June 05, 2019, 08:10:00 PM
If I were Dave updating my website would not be my number 1 priority.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: emjaybee on June 05, 2019, 08:10:42 PM
[Should I ask what your experience is.  :)

I got a silver Blue Peter badge....   8)

I got a Gold Duke of Edinburgh's Award.


Anyone have a Crackerjack pencil?

Crackerjack!

Sorry, old habits an' all that.

 :-[
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 05, 2019, 08:13:22 PM
If I were Dave updating my website would not be my number 1 priority.

Strictly speaking it is no longer his website and legally he should have been instructed not to touch it.  The administrator might have started to get a grip on the situation.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: emjaybee on June 05, 2019, 08:15:01 PM
Maybe it's 7pm in South America?

I understand that extradition is tricky from there.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: port perran on June 05, 2019, 08:15:31 PM
Well, from someone who has absolutely no interest in this, I must say all this speculation is......deadly dull.
Iím in the camp of never having had any faith that DJM would deliver so I certainly didnít pre order anything.
Having said that, if they have gone into liquidation, I feel sorry for Dave Jones and his family, it must be a torrid time for them and I hope that they manage to recover from it.
In the meantime, I would suggest that we stop all the speculation until we get a firm announcement one way or the other.
By the way, I have no DOE, Blue Peter badges or Crackerjack pencils  :D
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Karhedron on June 05, 2019, 08:21:07 PM
Where did information come from that we should expect a 7pm announcement?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Newportnobby on June 05, 2019, 08:22:15 PM
Global Moderator Comment The slinging of mud between certain folks is certainly more interesting than the endless speculation but desist please. Everyone is entitled to an opinion regardless of their 'credentials' but personal abuse will not be tolerated. Whether or not person X has experience they can talk from is not open to question. Only they know the truth of that and do not have to bare themselves to others
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: ntpntpntp on June 05, 2019, 08:22:36 PM
I got a silver Blue Peter badge....   8)

Ah yes, I have one of those... and the regular one.... and 3 or 4 "Competition Winner" badges....  and a signed postcard from Val, Pete and John.   I reckon they probably got fed up with me writing to them as a youngster in the 70s  :D

I wonder if the badge still counts for free entry to museums and stuff?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Roy L S on June 05, 2019, 08:23:17 PM
Where did information come from that we should expect a 7pm announcement?

Phil Parker on RM Web.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Only Me on June 05, 2019, 08:23:24 PM
Ill just bring the topic back as facts show:-

Company address  has changed name to that of a company which could be construed as dealing with insolvency

Djm contact number appears blocked

Companies house has a two page pdf file on address change and the contact name if googled says well known insolvency specialist

digitrains have listed on their website that djm has gone into receivership
https://www.digitrains.co.uk/events/d-j-models-king-george-v/ (https://www.digitrains.co.uk/events/d-j-models-king-george-v/)

There are allegedly no responses to his customer emails

Lets wait and see what occurs
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: emjaybee on June 05, 2019, 08:23:31 PM
I got a silver Blue Peter badge....   8)

Ah yes, I have one of those... and the regular one.... and 3 or 4 "Competition Winner" badges....  and a signed postcard from Val, Pete and John.   I reckon they probably got fed up with me writing to them as a youngster in the 70s  :D

I wonder if the badge still counts for free entry to museums and stuff?

I believe it does.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Karhedron on June 05, 2019, 08:42:24 PM
It is an interesting thought, but even having shed the liabilities I am not sure I understand what assets have value and are worth saving via a pre-pack Admin, certainly not the name or goodwill.

I would guess the existing completed models just as the OO gauge J94, the mermaids etc are all valuable as the owner could bash out fresh production runs quite easily. Whether there are any ownership issues ala Class 17, I do not know. But in theory those assets have value and could be of interest to potential buyers.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Roy L S on June 05, 2019, 09:01:03 PM
It is an interesting thought, but even having shed the liabilities I am not sure I understand what assets have value and are worth saving via a pre-pack Admin, certainly not the name or goodwill.

I would guess the existing completed models just as the OO gauge J94, the mermaids etc are all valuable as the owner could bash out fresh production runs quite easily. Whether there are any ownership issues ala Class 17, I do not know. But in theory those assets have value and could be of interest to potential buyers.


True, but a look at the July 2018 Micro accounts does not reveal assets of anything like the value of such tooling even allowing for amortisation. I would also refer to Mr Jones's early May "announcements" where he bemoans the fact that he has spent £250k on tooling he cannot use or access, that would suggest (I do not know for a fact) that not only the Clayton tooling is/was subject to dispute and held by the factory.

As regards the Clatyton, the tooling wasn't actually finished, detail needed adding before the 2nd EP could be produced. If what "Only Me" says is correct (and I have no reason to doubt it) the first EP was also not actually very accurate model such that it would be better to start again from scratch.


The cost of trying to resolve a dispute with China over the tooling would very likely be beyond the resources that the Admin will have available.


Roy
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: ScottishModeller on June 05, 2019, 11:46:35 PM
Hi all,

It appears that the insolvency company have been busy today and contacted all the shows that DJM were committed to and withdrawn from them.

Apparently there will be more on this at some point tomorrow.

Thanks
Phil H
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: jmupton2000 on June 05, 2019, 11:56:40 PM
It comes as no surprise that the 7pm announcement never turned up (as at time of writing, nearly midnight!)

To use the (printable) train crew official terminology:

'What a shambles!!'
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: 5944 on June 06, 2019, 12:42:21 AM
It is an interesting thought, but even having shed the liabilities I am not sure I understand what assets have value and are worth saving via a pre-pack Admin, certainly not the name or goodwill.

I would guess the existing completed models just as the OO gauge J94, the mermaids etc are all valuable as the owner could bash out fresh production runs quite easily. Whether there are any ownership issues ala Class 17, I do not know. But in theory those assets have value and could be of interest to potential buyers.
When was the last DJ product produced? There are literally hundreds of liveries the Austerities could be made in, yet none have appeared. It's been months since anything new came from the factory, but more and more models were being promised. Actually, has it been a couple of years since the 14xx appeared. Anything since?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bingley Hall on June 06, 2019, 03:31:01 AM
It comes as no surprise that the 7pm announcement never turned up (as at time of writing, nearly midnight!)

To use the (printable) train crew official terminology:

'What a shambles!!'
I can find nowhere where Dave Jones has said that he was making any announcement. All we have is a third party on another forum in a highly speculative environment saying they were 'told' there would be announcement.

I read it on the internet so it must be true  :laugh3:
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Paul-H on June 06, 2019, 08:55:15 AM
Interesting to note that their website is still taking deposits, should that not have been one of the first things the insolvency company shut down, surly that is now fraud?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: woodbury22uk on June 06, 2019, 08:57:21 AM
The website cannot take money. The ordering process stops before the payment gateway. No fraud....but who would want to order anyway?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bingley Hall on June 06, 2019, 09:49:52 AM
Interesting to note that their website is still taking deposits, should that not have been one of the first things the insolvency company shut down, surly that is now fraud?
Are you sticking by that statement - despite the fact it's already been posted and answered twice in the thread already.

Given that it's already been clearly established that Mr Jones' web site is NOT taking money, surly that is now defamation?  :D
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 06, 2019, 10:06:51 AM

I can find nowhere where Dave Jones has said that he was making any announcement. All we have is a third party on another forum in a highly speculative environment saying they were 'told' there would be announcement.

I read it on the internet so it must be true  :laugh3:

To be fair Phil Parker isn't just a bloke on RMWeb - he's one of the senior moderator team, and works for Warner Group Publications (who produce BRM etc).

Clearly his source was (theoretically) accurate. Still nothing this morning though.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 06, 2019, 10:55:51 AM

I can find nowhere where Dave Jones has said that he was making any announcement. All we have is a third party on another forum in a highly speculative environment saying they were 'told' there would be announcement.

I read it on the internet so it must be true  :laugh3:

To be fair Phil Parker isn't just a bloke on RMWeb - he's one of the senior moderator team, and works for Warner Group Publications (who produce BRM etc).

Clearly his source was (theoretically) accurate. Still nothing this morning though.



His concern must be guilt about the poor way they moderated the RMweb over many years allowing the Trolls to undermine the DJ models business, since it was formed. 

The main organ of anti DJ Models rhetoric has been RMweb postings, something commented on before on this forum.

Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 06, 2019, 11:00:32 AM
The moderating team that banned you for being racist? You may not be wholly impartial in your assessment of them! I have no issues with their moderation. ;)

As I've already said, there are a few people who seem to just deliberately troll Dave's threads, but actually the vast majority of people simply raised legitimate concerns in my opinion. Dave was not brought down by a few naysayers on a forum.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: acko22 on June 06, 2019, 11:07:14 AM

His concern must be guilt about the poor way they moderated the RMweb over many years allowing the Trolls to undermine the DJ models business, since it was formed. 


Really?? So its the fault of RMweb and people who dont trust him that this has happened? I am certain others have face sceptisim on there and they arent do to badly!
Maybe and more realistic is people had been stung by his previous ventures and had no trust from the start which, frankly they have been proven right by!
How many announcements had he made that proved to be nothing but hot air and wishful thinking?

It appears that the insolvency company have been busy today and contacted all the shows that DJM were committed to and withdrawn from them.

Well this makes sense that of they are acting point of contact and now control DJM they will also have ownership of the website and Mr. Jones will not be allowed to make a statement on there, although we may see something through other less official means. But we shall wait and see.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: broadsword on June 06, 2019, 11:09:30 AM
Like DJ Models, I think this thread is going off the rails...ÖÖÖ.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 06, 2019, 11:14:22 AM
The moderating team that banned you for being racist? You may not be wholly impartial in your assessment of them! I have no issues with their moderation. ;)

As I've already said, there are a few people who seem to just deliberately troll Dave's threads, but actually the vast majority of people simply raised legitimate concerns in my opinion. Dave was not brought down by a few naysayers on a forum.

Yes, I warned that Chinese companies do not trade to the same commercial standards as we do and to be careful.

Remember the HSBC TV adverts telling their customer they could help them when they have to trade in different countries, no more racist than that.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: red_death on June 06, 2019, 11:27:02 AM
Yes, I warned that Chinese companies do not trade to the same commercial standards as we do and to be careful.


That may be your experience, but that certainly isn't our experience.  The factories and designers we work with are incredibly professional and work to exactly the same commercial standards that we would.

I don't know if that is a case of times changing or different sectors, but there are bad apples in all walks of life.

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bealman on June 06, 2019, 11:29:51 AM
Thanks, Mike.

Positive comment!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 06, 2019, 11:31:08 AM
Yes, I warned that Chinese companies do not trade to the same commercial standards as we do and to be careful.


That may be your experience, but that certainly isn't our experience.  The factories and designers we work with are incredibly professional and work to exactly the same commercial standards that we would.

I don't know if that is a case of times changing or different sectors, but there are bad apples in all walks of life.

Cheers Mike

Mike

I think you have been lucky especially as your first exposure was through Revolution as I recall and the path was smooth.

You cannot get away from the fundamental fact that Chinese commercial law is different and that Chinese companies use it to the full, just as we use our commercial law to the full.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Paul-H on June 06, 2019, 12:21:41 PM
Interesting to note that their website is still taking deposits, should that not have been one of the first things the insolvency company shut down, surly that is now fraud?
Are you sticking by that statement - despite the fact it's already been posted and answered twice in the thread already.

Given that it's already been clearly established that Mr Jones' web site is NOT taking money, surly that is now defamation?  :D

Ok so just double checked and sure enough after going through all the ordering options when you get to pay it says

"Sorry, it seems that there are no available payment methods for your state. Please contact us if you require assistance or wish to make alternate arrangements."

Is not the same as we have gone bust so cannot take your money is it?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Newportnobby on June 06, 2019, 12:26:44 PM
Sadly, and despite a comment from me about personal attacks on fellow members, some seem determined to persist so I'm locking this thread. If anyone wants it unlocked please apply to @Tank (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2)
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Only Me on June 06, 2019, 10:18:15 PM
Ive unlocked the topic now its out

https://m.thegazette.co.uk/notice/3296156

However we are all watching (the mod team) personal attacks will attract a 24 hr posting ban...

Im sure once court papers are stamped etc more laundry will appear
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: NinOz on June 06, 2019, 11:45:31 PM
Had a note from Digitrains noting DJM troubles and advising a refund of preorder will be made.
Wonder what will happen to my other 270 quid.
Ah well, take a punt sometimes ok other times not.
Would have liked the odd King though. :(
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: ohlavache on June 07, 2019, 07:45:33 AM
I feel really sad for Dave. I do hope he will soon revover from this situation.
The photos I've seen of his OO models looked so great.
 :(
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Peter K on June 07, 2019, 09:43:28 AM
Personally, I don't have a particularly good impression of him. A major model shop manager told me that DJ Models take your deposit for preorders and don't return it to you if it fails. Caveat Emptor!

On another note, Companies House still has him down as a 'toys manufacturer'.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 07, 2019, 10:41:21 AM
Thatís pretty meaningless, one project failed that I know of, and Kernow returned deposits. Nothing else had formally failed once monies were taken.

All bets are off on whatís happening now, but what the ďmajor model shop managerĒ said isnít really true.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: woodbury22uk on June 07, 2019, 10:58:38 AM
When Dave pulled the plug on the Class 17 my money was refunded instantly..
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Cape Town Trev on June 07, 2019, 11:09:41 AM
Personally, I don't have a particularly good impression of him. A major model shop manager told me that DJ Models take your deposit for preorders and don't return it to you if it fails. Caveat Emptor!

On another note, Companies House still has him down as a 'toys manufacturer'.
I have made payments for the N gauge cl92 and King.
King - 50% upfront and I believed 50% when into production.  I rightly or wrongly believed first 50% for CAD and tooling.  Monies spent upto tooling so NO refund if no production.
Class 92 - 30 Pound upfront for CAD.  Next tranche when tooling due.  As I only paid 30 Pound and CAD produced then NO refund if no tooling.
If I can I will lodge a claim with the liquidator but I think the crowdfunding had risks which MAY have been understated or I placed TOO MUCH faith in DJ Models.  I believe the King said only order if accepting the risk.
In my view DJ Models were TOO optimistic and once monies for one model could not cover next stage, another model was announced and a staged payment was requested.
Revolution were using an established manufacturer / facilitator - Rapido whereas DJ Models were sourcing manufacturer.  In hindsight DJ Models should have "self funded" delivered one model quickly and proved capable.

 
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bob G on June 07, 2019, 11:30:17 AM
Thatís pretty meaningless, one project failed that I know of, and Kernow returned deposits. Nothing else had formally failed once monies were taken.

All bets are off on whatís happening now, but what the ďmajor model shop managerĒ said isnít really true.

Fully agree.

Dave said to me, after producing several OO models for clients like Hattons and Kernow that he didnít make enough from these commissions to fund the core DJM business and they were more distractions although he took them on as guaranteed income rather than helping build the business.

I do feel he would have been better off if he had kept focus on what he wanted to do, but half way through his business plan the funding model was changed as crowdfunding became popular, and that I think was the start of the problem.
The reason the OO 74 was refunded in full was he didnít have access to the funds (Kernow held them in a separate account) but the refund on the N class 17 was from the DJM company. from that point on, without the wherewithal to realise projects from either of those dies, I believe the die was well and truly cast.

Bob
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 07, 2019, 11:34:37 AM
Personally, I don't have a particularly good impression of him. A major model shop manager told me that DJ Models take your deposit for preorders and don't return it to you if it fails. Caveat Emptor!

On another note, Companies House still has him down as a 'toys manufacturer'.
I have made payments for the N gauge cl92 and King.
King - 50% upfront and I believed 50% when into production.  I rightly or wrongly believed first 50% for CAD and tooling.  Monies spent upto tooling so NO refund if no production.
Class 92 - 30 Pound upfront for CAD.  Next tranche when tooling due.  As I only paid 30 Pound and CAD produced then NO refund if no tooling.
If I can I will lodge a claim with the liquidator but I think the crowdfunding had risks which MAY have been understated or I placed TOO MUCH faith in DJ Models.  I believe the King said only order if accepting the risk.
In my view DJ Models were TOO optimistic and once monies for one model could not cover next stage, another model was announced and a staged payment was requested.
Revolution were using an established manufacturer / facilitator - Rapido whereas DJ Models were sourcing manufacturer.  In hindsight DJ Models should have "self funded" delivered one model quickly and proved capable.

Strictly speaking DJ actually took a deposit on goods, not crowdfunding. 

This is very important as it affects whether we are entitled to credit card refunds under the sale of goods act and other consumer legislation.

Best advice take screen shots of the sales pages on his website which appear to be worded in our favour on this.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Lawrence on June 07, 2019, 07:45:06 PM
It's a good job nobody died!
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: NinOz on June 08, 2019, 03:07:07 AM
So far! >:D


PS not a reference to Dave Jones.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Philip. on June 08, 2019, 10:09:41 AM
I would imagine this way of funding/manufacturing model railway stock is now dead in the water, I can't see anyone stumping up cash up front anymore. I guess the likes of Revolution will be ok but the "one man bands" i'm not so sure?

A sad state of affairs.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Skyline2uk on June 08, 2019, 10:48:33 AM
Having had a scare a couple of years back with Mrs (then to-be) Skyline and her wedding dress, I am now aware that Visa can assist in money being recovered even if a debit card is used.

This link may be of use to some:

https://www.money.co.uk/guides/chargeback-claims-how-to-get-your-money-back.htm (https://www.money.co.uk/guides/chargeback-claims-how-to-get-your-money-back.htm)

As to the impact on the wider hobby; I personally believe if anybody can show results, they will be backed. Revolution is of course sighted as a good example, but Calalex should also be recognised. I donít think this affair should stop new manufactures or market entrants.

Skyline2uk
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: emjaybee on June 08, 2019, 12:05:48 PM
I would imagine this way of funding/manufacturing model railway stock is now dead in the water, I can't see anyone stumping up cash up front anymore. I guess the likes of Revolution will be ok but the "one man bands" i'm not so sure?

A sad state of affairs.

I disagree quite strongly. As previously stated, there's nothing wrong with the funding/manufacturing principle. RevolutioN being a good example of how to do it well. It just needs to move at a measured pace, starting small, working up.

Walk before you run.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Philip. on June 08, 2019, 04:34:19 PM
I would imagine this way of funding/manufacturing model railway stock is now dead in the water, I can't see anyone stumping up cash up front anymore. I guess the likes of Revolution will be ok but the "one man bands" i'm not so sure?

A sad state of affairs.

I disagree quite strongly. As previously stated, there's nothing wrong with the funding/manufacturing principle. RevolutioN being a good example of how to do it well. It just needs to move at a measured pace, starting small, working up.

Walk before you run.

That may be so and I did say the likes of Revolution will be OK, I have no experience with this sort of crowdfunding, but any prospective customers may think twice before parting with hard earned cash thus stifling those projects that "move at a measured pace, starting small, working up."
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 08, 2019, 04:49:50 PM
I would imagine this way of funding/manufacturing model railway stock is now dead in the water, I can't see anyone stumping up cash up front anymore. I guess the likes of Revolution will be ok but the "one man bands" i'm not so sure?

A sad state of affairs.

I disagree quite strongly. As previously stated, there's nothing wrong with the funding/manufacturing principle. RevolutioN being a good example of how to do it well. It just needs to move at a measured pace, starting small, working up.

Walk before you run.

That may be so and I did say the likes of Revolution will be OK, I have no experience with this sort of crowdfunding, but any prospective customers may think twice before parting with hard earned cash thus stifling those projects that "move at a measured pace, starting small, working up."

Strictly DJ did not crowdfund, he called it that but in practice he sold a deposit on custom built goods with a promise to deliver.

Kickstarter et-al which are true crowdfunders wait till the funding "promise" is complete, take all the money up front, and as it is a punt you only get "rewards" if it succeeds. Crowdfunding is all risk and credit card companies treat it like betting and wont refund against it.

Revolution and others are far more responsible, not taking money until they are dammed sure of being able to deliver. (this again is not crowdfunding).
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Philip. on June 08, 2019, 04:54:07 PM
I would imagine this way of funding/manufacturing model railway stock is now dead in the water, I can't see anyone stumping up cash up front anymore. I guess the likes of Revolution will be ok but the "one man bands" i'm not so sure?

A sad state of affairs.

I disagree quite strongly. As previously stated, there's nothing wrong with the funding/manufacturing principle. RevolutioN being a good example of how to do it well. It just needs to move at a measured pace, starting small, working up.

Walk before you run.

That may be so and I did say the likes of Revolution will be OK, I have no experience with this sort of crowdfunding, but any prospective customers may think twice before parting with hard earned cash thus stifling those projects that "move at a measured pace, starting small, working up."

Strictly DJ did not crowdfund, he called it that but in practice he sold a deposit on custom built goods with a promise to deliver.

Kickstarter et-al which are true crowdfunders wait till the funding "promise" is complete, take all the money up front, and as it is a punt you only get "rewards" if it succeeds. Crowdfunding is all risk and credit card companies treat it like betting and wont refund against it.

Revolution and others are far more responsible, not taking money until they are dammed sure of being able to deliver. (this again is not crowdfunding).

You're right of course, my mistake in calling it crowdfunding, I still think people will be wary of paying a deposit to fund a project.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: idlemoor on June 08, 2019, 05:16:26 PM
There are multiple things that could be tried by future new entrants. Examples might include

Consumer's co-op
Proper ring-fenced or escrow crowfunding, not faux-crowdfunding preorders
Time-constrained fundraising
Open book project finances
No more one man bands
Innovative manufacturing to reduce the minimum viable production run
Open source CAD

And yes, I know plenty of those are anathema to old-school entrepreneurs or well-meaning daydreamers. Good.

But there will still be plenty of people who will never again trust any money-up-front product-later enterprise. It'll be a medley of product-specific numbers games between the persuadable, the unpersuadable, and the market size. There's little point, though, in having an abstract debate here and now between the persuadable and the unpersuadable.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: red_death on June 08, 2019, 06:18:17 PM
Wiki's definition of crowdfunding is:

"Crowdfunding is the practice of funding a project or venture by raising small amounts of money from a large number of people"

That seems to me to be a pretty correct definition that covers many possibilities. Crowdfunding has been around much longer than kickstarter! Bands have been using it to record singles and albums for years.

I'll re-iterate what I wrote earlier - crowdfunding is a tool but not the only one you need to get right to deliver a model. It isn't a silver bullet or an easy solution and shouldn't be seen as such but it can be a valuable method to fund models (or other items) that wouldn't be produced otherwise.

Idlemoor and others have raised some interesting points and ideas. We've looked at some of them (e.g. different manufacturing methods; escrow accounts etc). We already project finance every project so that a model only goes ahead if it has sufficient orders. The crucial decision point being when to start tooling - as soon as you pay any money for tooling you have to have the orders (or reserves) to see the project through to production and delivery. Having enough orders/cash to pay the deposit on tooling but relying on future orders to pay for the rest of tooling and/or production is a recipe for disaster.

Cheers Mike

Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 08, 2019, 06:25:46 PM
Wiki's definition of crowdfunding is:

"Crowdfunding is the practice of funding a project or venture by raising small amounts of money from a large number of people"

That seems to me to be a pretty correct definition that covers many possibilities. Crowdfunding has been around much longer than kickstarter! Bands have been using it to record singles and albums for years.

I'll re-iterate what I wrote earlier - crowdfunding is a tool but not the only one you need to get right to deliver a model. It isn't a silver bullet or an easy solution and shouldn't be seen as such but it can be a valuable method to fund models (or other items) that wouldn't be produced otherwise.

Idlemoor and others have raised some interesting points and ideas. We've looked at some of them (e.g. different manufacturing methods; escrow accounts etc). We already project finance every project so that a model only goes ahead if it has sufficient orders. The crucial decision point being when to start tooling - as soon as you pay any money for tooling you have to have the orders (or reserves) to see the project through to production and delivery. Having enough orders/cash to pay the deposit on tooling but relying on future orders to pay for the rest of tooling and/or production is a recipe for disaster.

Cheers Mike

So as not to be argumentative can I simply refer you to The Sale of Goods Act am leave it at that.

Wikiís and laws are not the same.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 08, 2019, 07:00:41 PM
The Sale of Goods Act was replaced by the Consumer Rights Act in 2015, so that's a pretty irrelevant referral. If you think Wikipedia is wrong then edit it, IMO it's a pretty good source of information these days.

I don't profess to have read the CRA cover to cover, but I cannot see exclusion for crowdfunded projects. Indeed the word "crowdfund" doesn't appear in the document. There's an interesting blog here (http://blogs.nottingham.ac.uk/allconsuminginterests/2015/11/17/crowdfunding-and-the-consumer/) which explores whether crowdfunders are investors or consumers, the broad thrust being that as people are generally not professional investors they are, by definition, consumers.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: red_death on June 08, 2019, 07:09:59 PM
I'm not sure whether the Consumer Rights Act has ever been tested vis-a-vis crowdfunding but I don't see them as being mutually exclusive anyway. The fact that funds are raised through crowdfunding doesn't necessarily mean the CRA doesn't apply (I would argue it does for most product reward crowdfunding).

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 08, 2019, 07:12:33 PM
The Sale of Goods Act was replaced by the Consumer Rights Act in 2015, so that's a pretty irrelevant referral. If you think Wikipedia is wrong then edit it, IMO it's a pretty good source of information these days.

I don't profess to have read the CRA cover to cover, but I cannot see exclusion for crowdfunded projects. Indeed the word "crowdfund" doesn't appear in the document. There's an interesting blog here ([url]http://blogs.nottingham.ac.uk/allconsuminginterests/2015/11/17/crowdfunding-and-the-consumer/[/url]) which explores whether crowdfunders are investors or consumers, the broad thrust being that as people are generally not professional investors they are, by definition, consumers.



The provisions defining goods, services, speculations and betting rolled over.

A blog is not case law.

Is there a lawyer on the forum because I just feel it is your want to rubbish anything I say @Tank (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2)
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 08, 2019, 07:16:02 PM
I know, but as Mike says I'm not sure there is case law. I know of US consumers bringing a case (successfully) against organisations who have crowdfunded and subsequent non delivery, but not in the UK and clearly the US legal system is totally different. It'll be interesting when it happens.

I'm simply pointing out that your recommendation doesn't really seem relevant, but unsure if I'm missing something. I don't feel I've been unfair or rubbishing what you say.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 08, 2019, 07:16:42 PM
I'm not sure whether the Consumer Rights Act has ever been tested vis-a-vis crowdfunding but I don't see them as being mutually exclusive anyway. The fact that funds are raised through crowdfunding doesn't necessarily mean the CRA doesn't apply (I would argue it does for most product reward crowdfunding).

Cheers Mike

Mike there is no case law yet but would you not agree itís product that is being sold not rewards.  Thatís the difference.

Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: red_death on June 08, 2019, 07:28:16 PM
I've spent a lot of time reading up on this (and due to my day job I'm well-versed in reading legislation) and I don't see the point/distinction you are trying to make. I've already said my reading of the situation.

Crowdfunding is a method of raising funds, and covers a variety of scenarios. I've been involved in crowdfunding where I got shares - that is clearly an investment; I've also been involved in crowdfunding where the reward has been a product.

I'd hope that anyone involved in crowdfunding something is at least aware of the potential risks (which will vary massively depending on the scenario).

Whether you call it a reward or a product I'm not sure it changes the legal outcome. But we're getting into the realms of law that without case law it is almost impossible to know how a judge would view things.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Only Me on June 08, 2019, 07:38:08 PM
As Mike says this topic has begun to degenerate again into realms of rubbish so thats the end until we see the outcome of the court papers on winding up
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Only Me on June 11, 2019, 11:48:46 AM
Unlocked as @Karhedron (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=207) has some information from the liquidators
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Karhedron on June 11, 2019, 12:03:33 PM
I have just been contacted by the Liquidators and informed that I have been added to the list of creditors. I contacted them last week with details of my order.

Nothing particularly surprising in the correspondence but at least it confirms where we stand. A confirmation that the models will not be produced and that I should contact my credit card company for a refund. They also said they could provide documentation to back up the claim against the credit card company if necessary on request.

If you have not already done so, I recommend anyone who ordered from DJM should register as a creditor with the liquidators. I don't think we will get any money out of them but it is important that they can build up a picture of the company's liabilities and it may help claiming back from your credit card provider.

I did this simply by email them at info@cg-recovery.com
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: anselm on June 11, 2019, 12:16:24 PM
Thank you Karhedron, that's useful supporting evidence for my claim on Barclaycard. 

I wonder if it would be possible to keep this thread running for members to record their success or otherwise with the various credit card companies?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: mickeyflinn on June 11, 2019, 01:06:01 PM
Copied from the home page of the website;

"It is with great sadness that DJModels Ltd has now closed and is in receivership (4th June 2019). Both DJModels e-mail addresses (Ďnthusiast@í, and Ďinfo@í) are now out of use, and all aspects of DJModels Ltd are all in the control of the receivers, CG-recovery of Manchester."

I personally didn't order anything, but feel sorry for both Dave and anyone who had pre-ordered anything.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Delboy on June 11, 2019, 03:29:22 PM
Thanks Karhedron,
I have already written to my credit card company using the standard template that you identified earlier in the thread. I will report back on any progress in due course.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Tim E on June 11, 2019, 07:13:39 PM
I've just spoken to Santander on the phone, the operative asked a few basic questions to make sure time wasn't being wasted and then asked me to send anything relevant (original order, liquidation notice, etc) through to them.

This can be done by letter, email or in branch.  I opted for email and the address given to me to send everything through to is s75.claims@santander.co.uk.  Hope that helps anyone going through this with a Santander Card!
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: REGP on June 12, 2019, 12:39:56 PM
Thanks @Karhedron (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=207), I paid a 50% deposit for a King by credit card

So I spoke with NatWest MasterCard and was directed to an online form in order to claim, (which I duly completed) but was told not to expect a response for 7 to 10 days.

Also emailed CG with orderm details and home address to register as a creditor, received same response as Karhedron within a few hours.

With luck Iíll get a refund which I put towards a Osborns R & R Crane.

Ray
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: pesky badger on June 12, 2019, 12:41:00 PM
Has anyone got a screenshot  of DJM's web page showing the full cost of the King model?  Since the site has been taken over by the creditors the site doesn't allow you to see the models or their costs.  Just thinking this might be needed when trying to claim back the deposit cost, when the receipt for the deposit doesn't mention the future payment amount.

Stu
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Delboy on June 12, 2019, 12:46:52 PM
Has anyone got a screenshot  of DJM's web page showing the full cost of the King model?  Since the site has been taken over by the creditors the site doesn't allow you to see the models or their costs.  Just thinking this might be needed when trying to claim back the deposit cost, when the receipt for the deposit doesn't mention the future payment amount.

Stu

As mentioned in an earlier post, I paid a deposit of £67.50 for one of the Kings, by credit card, and started a claim, but now having read the Article 75, I am not sure I will receive anything as the deposit was below the £100 stated in that article.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Steven B on June 12, 2019, 01:03:36 PM
Article 75 covers you when the final cost of the item is over £100. You could pay just £1 on your credit card and you'd be covered for the full  up to £30000.

There's a thread on RMWeb with some good information:
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/145059-crowdfunding-reclaim-via-credit-card/ (https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/145059-crowdfunding-reclaim-via-credit-card/)

Steven B
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Karhedron on June 12, 2019, 01:04:13 PM
Has anyone got a screenshot  of DJM's web page showing the full cost of the King model?  Since the site has been taken over by the creditors the site doesn't allow you to see the models or their costs.  Just thinking this might be needed when trying to claim back the deposit cost, when the receipt for the deposit doesn't mention the future payment amount.

As mentioned in an earlier post, I paid a deposit of £67.50 for one of the Kings, by credit card, and started a claim, but now having read the Article 75, I am not sure I will receive anything as the deposit was below the £100 stated in that article.

It is not the deposit, it is the total value of the item being ordered that must be over £100. The King was more and so qualifies, even though you only paid a 50% deposit.

I did take a screenshot of the order page before it was taken down. I am happy to share it for the benefit of anyone who needs it as proof of the full purchase price for the Kings but it is in .png format and the forum will not let me attach it.

Perhaps a Mod could advise? @Only Me (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1328)
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Only Me on June 12, 2019, 01:08:46 PM
Sure no problem it was in the public domain before
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: ntpntpntp on June 12, 2019, 01:12:31 PM
The original web page is still online if you need it (I found it via the wayback machine, which hadn't actually archived it but said the real page was still present)

https://djmodels.co.uk/product/gwr-4-6-0-king-6000-class (https://djmodels.co.uk/product/gwr-4-6-0-king-6000-class)

Suggest grab a screen shot sooner rather than later.

[edit] pdf capture of the page is attached.

ps - no I haven't ordered anything from DJM myself.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 12, 2019, 02:43:45 PM
I have a series of documents in my inbox from the liquidator.  Not read them yet. Will post if important later
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Delboy on June 12, 2019, 03:18:51 PM
Thanks guys for putting me straight on that one.
Hopefully I will get some success. I have done as ntpntpntp suggested and taken screenshots of the order page which I will forward on to my credit card company.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: portland-docks on June 12, 2019, 03:22:44 PM
unfortunatly for me my deposit was by debit card rather than credit card, so im boned!
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 12, 2019, 03:26:54 PM
I have a series of documents in my inbox from the liquidator.  Not read them yet. Will post if important later

Its the formal notification of appointment of the Administrators and asking the creditors to approve their fees.  standard stuff and it includes the clam form which needs to be filled in and returned.

FYI. this entire process can take years.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Delboy on June 12, 2019, 03:28:54 PM
I have a series of documents in my inbox from the liquidator.  Not read them yet. Will post if important later

Its the formal notification of appointment of the Administrators and asking the creditors to approve their fees.  standard stuff and it includes the clam form which needs to be filled in and returned.

FYI. this entire process can take years.

Is it better to just pursue the credit card company if we have paid that way?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 12, 2019, 03:37:28 PM
I have a series of documents in my inbox from the liquidator.  Not read them yet. Will post if important later

Its the formal notification of appointment of the Administrators and asking the creditors to approve their fees.  standard stuff and it includes the clam form which needs to be filled in and returned.

FYI. this entire process can take years.



Is it better to just pursue the credit card company if we have paid that way?

I have a £30 deposit for a class 92 that was paid by PayPal and they wont pay up so i'm pursuing that directly.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Fardap on June 12, 2019, 04:13:32 PM
Items priced at more than £100, even if you paid for only some of it on credit card. So if you paid £30 on credit card but the item was for sale at £150, you are entitled to a refund of the full amount.

https://www.finder.com/uk/what-happens-when-you-get-a-credit-card-refund (https://www.finder.com/uk/what-happens-when-you-get-a-credit-card-refund)
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: PaulCheffus on June 12, 2019, 04:46:47 PM
unfortunatly for me my deposit was by debit card rather than credit card, so im boned!

Hi

You could try the chargeback option
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/how-do-i-use-chargeback (https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/how-do-i-use-chargeback)

Cheers

Paul
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Cape Town Trev on June 12, 2019, 05:33:35 PM
Items priced at more than £100, even if you paid for only some of it on credit card. So if you paid £30 on credit card but the item was for sale at £150, you are entitled to a refund of the full amount.

https://www.finder.com/uk/what-happens-when-you-get-a-credit-card-refund (https://www.finder.com/uk/what-happens-when-you-get-a-credit-card-refund)
I presume a full refund of the actual amount paid i.e. 30 Pounds and not 150 Pounds  :)
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Nigel Cliffe on June 12, 2019, 07:10:16 PM
unfortunatly for me my deposit was by debit card rather than credit card, so im boned!

Hi

You could try the chargeback option
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/how-do-i-use-chargeback (https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/how-do-i-use-chargeback)

Cheers

Paul


Try, but don't be overly optimistic.   Credit Cards have legal force (section 75).  Chargeback is where the card provider recovers the money from the retailer and refunds you - in this case the retailer is in liquidation, so the chargeback will, I expect, be stuck as the company being liquidated has no funds to cover the chargeback. 



Items priced at more than £100, even if you paid for only some of it on credit card. So if you paid £30 on credit card but the item was for sale at £150, you are entitled to a refund of the full amount.

https://www.finder.com/uk/what-happens-when-you-get-a-credit-card-refund (https://www.finder.com/uk/what-happens-when-you-get-a-credit-card-refund)
I presume a full refund of the actual amount paid i.e. 30 Pounds and not 150 Pounds  :)

Yes, your losses only - if you paid out a total of £30, you have a loss of £30.   
However, had you paid £30 deposit on credit card, and then subsequent payment of £100 by another method, so were now £130 out of pocket, then your Section 75 claim against the card is for your entire loss of £130 (up to the £30,000 limit under Section 75). 

Section 75 protection is very good, and is one reason to put a car purchase deposit, or other high value transaction deposits (holidays, big ticket home items, etc), on a credit card even if planning to settle the balance through other means - should things go badly wrong, you can take action against the card company for the entire loss.




Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: joe cassidy on June 12, 2019, 08:14:03 PM
I have a series of documents in my inbox from the liquidator.  Not read them yet. Will post if important later

Its the formal notification of appointment of the Administrators and asking the creditors to approve their fees.  standard stuff and it includes the clam form which needs to be filled in and returned.

FYI. this entire process can take years.

In France the process takes 2 years maximum.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Cape Town Trev on June 12, 2019, 08:27:26 PM
Liquidatorís letter refers to tooling in China / Hong Kong and deposits paid by DJM. They say negotiations could be protracted and legal advice needed. Also states someone may be interested in IP rights I think.
Voting form and claim form to be returned by 1 July.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Dickydcc on June 12, 2019, 08:36:08 PM
Does that mean there is a chance someone  could pick up the pecies & actually have some models to sell?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Karhedron on June 12, 2019, 10:06:59 PM
Does that mean there is a chance someone  could pick up the pecies & actually have some models to sell?

It is possible but it most likely refers to something like the Mermaid which is a completed model. Buying the tooling for that could be a canny purchase if the price is right as you could bash off another run every couple of years for minimal investment. It could be a nice little earner.

The projects that were in progress are likely to be more problematic. I would consider them unlikely but anything is possible.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: pesky badger on June 13, 2019, 08:32:12 AM
The original web page is still online if you need it (I found it via the wayback machine, which hadn't actually archived it but said the real page was still present)

https://djmodels.co.uk/product/gwr-4-6-0-king-6000-class (https://djmodels.co.uk/product/gwr-4-6-0-king-6000-class)

Suggest grab a screen shot sooner rather than later.

[edit] pdf capture of the page is attached.

ps - no I haven't ordered anything from DJM myself.

Many thanks

Stu
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: honk843 on June 13, 2019, 10:29:45 AM
I ordered 2 x Kings from DJM and paid the appropriate deposit of £135 by debit card. The problem I think is that the amount should be reclaimed within 120 days and I paid it in August 2018. I had a similar problem with Modelmaster although the amount was under £100.

Does anyone know if there is a way round the time limit or does it apply from the time of liquidation for example?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Nigel Cliffe on June 13, 2019, 10:54:38 AM
I ordered 2 x Kings from DJM and paid the appropriate deposit of £135 by debit card. The problem I think is that the amount should be reclaimed within 120 days and I paid it in August 2018. I had a similar problem with Modelmaster although the amount was under £100.

Does anyone know if there is a way round the time limit or does it apply from the time of liquidation for example?

The law around debit cards is different to credit cards.   So, I think your chances of getting anything are low. 

Credit Cards have "Section 75" protection; when stuff goes wrong, and if the total price of the item is between £100 and £30,000 and some of it was paid on a credit card (ie. a £30 deposit on a £150 loco is covered), then Section 75 applies, and the consumer has an absolute right to pursue either the retailer or the card provider for their losses.  The customer's loss is the total amount of money they paid out. Card companies will end up paying out on the lost deposits under Section 75 claims.
Things get complicated when PayPal rears its head - if people put money into their PayPal account and used that to buy stuff, then its outside Section75, but I think that if they used a Credit Card to pay DJM, and it happens that DJM's payment portal uses PayPal, then it is under Section75.  (In the latter case, DJM's payment portal could be any card payment mechanism). 

Debit Cards have just the standard consumer law.  There is "Charge Back", but that relies on the card issuer being able to recover their money from the retailer (they auto-debit the retailer's bank account for the amount).  As DJ Models is in the hands of the liquidator, there isn't a bank account with money to be debited, so I doubt the Charge Back would go through.    As a result, I think you're a creditor who hasn't been paid. 

Advice is do two things simultaneously:
1  try getting your card provider to refund you, it may work.   (I have low confidence in this).
2  register that you are a creditor with the liquidators for DJ Models - do this promptly, you've got a couple of weeks.  Then, should there be any money left when things are sorted out, you might get something back.

Having done those, go and do some modelling or feed the cat. Assume the money won't come back, be happy if anything does appear. 



( Its situations like this which illustrate just how useful Section 75 protection is to consumers: significant purchase deposits paid with a credit card have automatic protection, even when the retailer is bust.   Usually we see it in small airline failures, retailers (particularly furniture/kitchens) where the deposits have gone - those who used a credit card have Section 75 to refund all losses, those without are lucky to see anything back.   ). 


- Nigel
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: NGS-PO on June 13, 2019, 10:55:24 AM
I ordered 2 x Kings from DJM and paid the appropriate deposit of £135 by debit card. The problem I think is that the amount should be reclaimed within 120 days and I paid it in August 2018. I had a similar problem with Modelmaster although the amount was under £100.

Does anyone know if there is a way round the time limit or does it apply from the time of liquidation for example?

The time limit can only start from when the company went into receivership/liquidation/bankruptcy/whatever it is so there should not be a problem.

sorry, disregard, I mis-read your post. It's a debit card not a credit card.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Thorpe Parva on June 13, 2019, 11:27:02 AM
I have just received delivery of 4 Dutch Livery DJM Mermaids from Hattons. Not suitable for my modelling era but I will repaint in Black and/or Indian Red. I suppose it's possible that further production runs of Mermaids will happen but even so it's hard to imagine that it would be anytime soon. I already had the 4 black-livery models from the original production run so at least I now have 8 in total. 
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: class37025 on June 13, 2019, 11:33:31 AM
dare I hope, without being vilified, that part of the receiver's job will be to investigate where the money has gone ?

this has two advantages ....
1. as long as all above board, then it should stop any accusations of malpractice against Dave Jones,

or

2. if irregularities, then appropriate action can be taken.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: joe cassidy on June 13, 2019, 11:36:03 AM
dare I hope, without being vilified, that part of the receiver's job will be to investigate where the money has gone ?

In my opinion, no.

That's a job for the police.

Best regards,


Joe
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: NGS-PO on June 13, 2019, 11:39:59 AM
Taken from the Liquidators documentation creditors received:

"....I have a duty to consider the conduct of those who have been directors of the Company at any time during the last three years.  I also have a duty to consider whether any civil proceedings should be taken against the directors or others for the recovery of, or contributions to, the Company's assets."
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: class37025 on June 13, 2019, 11:46:53 AM
dare I hope, without being vilified, that part of the receiver's job will be to investigate where the money has gone ?

In my opinion, no.

That's a job for the police.

Best regards,


Joe

can't see the plod getting involved, let's be honest it's hard enough to get them to do anything with real crimes
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bob G on June 13, 2019, 11:48:41 AM
I would imagine that DJM paying in full (or even in part) for dies for two locos (N gauge 17 and IIRC an OO gauge 74) and not having access to those dies to produce models would be sufficient to hurt the business very badly indeed.

I donít think itís a sufficiently complex storyline to warrant a mini series being made.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 13, 2019, 11:48:58 AM
Taken from the Liquidators documentation creditors received:

"....I have a duty to consider the conduct of those who have been directors of the Company at any time during the last three years.  I also have a duty to consider whether any civil proceedings should be taken against the directors or others for the recovery of, or contributions to, the Company's assets."

It almost never happens unless there is evidence of imbeselment or fraud.  As the currency has fluctuated so much he can just point out to bad business decisions made in good faith and they wonít waist their time to pursue it.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bob G on June 13, 2019, 11:59:33 AM
I donít think this thread should continue like this.
Sure discuss your personal losses but speculation about malpractice needs to stop. Mods??? What do you think?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bealman on June 13, 2019, 12:07:54 PM
I'm the only mod online at the moment and am just about to go to bed here in Australia.

I could lock the thread now, but I won't be looking at it again til I get up.

I'm therefore leaving it open but would suggest that everyone cool off a bit.

If it escalates in the meantime, we'll be looking at it.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Only Me on June 13, 2019, 12:17:02 PM
I donít think this thread should continue like this.
Sure discuss your personal losses but speculation about malpractice needs to stop. Mods??? What do you think?

I see nothing wrong other than pure speculation, unless of course the poster is privvy to information the rest of us have no access to in which case I would advise against posting anything you could potentially get in trouble for.

Please  try and stay away from picking at the business ethics unless its proven by liquidators etc eh?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: broadsword on June 13, 2019, 12:20:08 PM
I'm bidding for the movie rights for this saga....titled Big trouble in little China........
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: class37025 on June 13, 2019, 12:44:13 PM
I donít think this thread should continue like this.
Sure discuss your personal losses but speculation about malpractice needs to stop. Mods??? What do you think?

not sure if this is aimed at my post, but surely it would stop speculation if the receivers stated that there was no problem with the way the company was run ?

if, however, there were irregularities, surely all those who have lost money should know.

no speculation was involved, simply a simple question.

but perhaps I don't type in english ?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Karhedron on June 13, 2019, 12:50:31 PM
not sure if this is aimed at my post, but surely it would stop speculation if the receivers stated that there was no problem with the way the company was run ?

They may not be in a position to make that statement yet. Perhaps they cannot issue such a statement now but may do so 3 months down the line once they have had time to check where all the money has gone.

Also a great deal is a matter of opinion. If Dave Jones paid himself a salary during DJM's operation, that might be perfectly legal, even if some people would question why he was taking money out of the business that they would have thought was ring-fenced for development.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: class37025 on June 15, 2019, 08:18:44 PM
bit confused, just had a look on Hatton's website, and they are still listing DJ Models locos etc as 'pre-order'.

do they know something we don't  :hmmm:
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: jpendle on June 15, 2019, 08:29:27 PM
bit confused, just had a look on Hatton's website, and they are still listing DJ Models locos etc as 'pre-order'.

do they know something we don't  :hmmm:

They don't know any more than we do, nor does any other retailer.

This has been done to death on RMWEB. They just haven't updated their website yet.

Regards,

John P
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 18, 2019, 10:58:02 AM
As of yesterday my credit card statement is showing a provisional full refund for the King deposits.  I sent them a copy of the DJ receipt and the London Gazette announcement, and filled in their form to claim.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Karhedron on June 18, 2019, 11:09:18 AM
Great result.  :jealous:

I am still waiting to hear from mine. It has been nearly 10 working days since I started the claim so I should find out soon.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: doug22150 on June 18, 2019, 04:05:58 PM
Interestingly, I've just been able to log on to my DJModels account and download my orders.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Cape Town Trev on June 18, 2019, 08:27:47 PM
Interestingly, I've just been able to log on to my DJModels account and download my orders.
More interestingly, for me is that when I logged in, my order for the class 92 was not there. The King was  >:(
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: trkilliman on June 18, 2019, 09:26:17 PM
Great result.  :jealous:

I am still waiting to hear from mine. It has been nearly 10 working days since I started the claim so I should find out soon.


A third call to my C.C. co. resulted in talking to somebody that has started a claim.

The two previous C.C. people I spoke to were asking me to contact Greggs & co and D.J. models, with no mention or offer to start the re-claim process.

Yesterday's helpful young lady said I would be contacted in 10-15 days, with either a decision on my claim or asking for more details from me.  I have my fingers crossed.

I mention this as it may be that some C.C. staff may be (for some reason) reluctant to start a claim, or maybe unaware of the procedure.. you never know.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 18, 2019, 09:30:50 PM
Great result.  :jealous:

I am still waiting to hear from mine. It has been nearly 10 working days since I started the claim so I should find out soon.


A third call to my C.C. co. resulted in talking to somebody that has started a claim.

The two previous C.C. people I spoke to were asking me to contact Greggs & co and D.J. models, with no mention or offer to start the re-claim process.

Yesterday's helpful young lady said I would be contacted in 10-15 days, with either a decision on my claim or asking for more details from me.  I have my fingers crossed.

I mention this as it may be that some C.C. staff may be (for some reason) reluctant to start a claim, or maybe unaware of the procedure.. you never know.

I just said, the company has gone bust, its in the gazette, I purchased product using your card, its not going to be delivered, send me the form. 

The form was in the post the next day.

Give them a chance they will put you off (they are paid to dissuade you).
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: trkilliman on June 18, 2019, 09:45:04 PM
This has indeed been done to death on RMweb, and it has morphed into being farce.

It has de-railed (no pun intended) into so many things of zilch connection it's beyond belief.

For me RMweb has lost some credibility as a site, mores the pity.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: class37025 on June 19, 2019, 09:51:18 AM
got this today from Hattons re DJM

We are aware of the issues surrounding DJ Models at the moment. We are waiting for confirmation with regards to any pre-orders that customers may have outstanding. As soon as we have any information we will make everyone aware.

of course, they only charge when goods are despatched, so no doubt disappointed customers, but not out of pocket.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Lankyman on June 19, 2019, 09:14:23 PM
I have just had an e-mail from Rails Sheffield informing me that they have just been informed that DJ Models have gone into receivership so my pre-order for a Class 17 has been cancelled. A great pity as I would have loved to have such a loco in my collection. I always had a soft spot for them when they cam onto the Preston Division and I thought they were a brilliant design.
Ron
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Newportnobby on June 19, 2019, 09:30:16 PM
I had a mail from Rails today stating my order for the class 23 had been cancelled owing to what's gone on. I reminded them I also had a class 17 twin pack, 2 Mermaids and 2 Sharks on order so they needed to knock them on the head, too.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 19, 2019, 09:33:17 PM
Quick to catch on  :goggleeyes:
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: emjaybee on June 19, 2019, 09:44:37 PM
I had a mail from Rails today stating my order for the class 23 had been cancelled owing to what's gone on. I reminded them I also had a class 17 twin pack, 2 Mermaids and 2 Sharks on order so they needed to knock them on the head, too.

Good job you were on the ball!

 :D
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: anselm on June 20, 2019, 09:35:50 AM
Thank you Karhedron, that's useful supporting evidence for my claim on Barclaycard. 

I wonder if it would be possible to keep this thread running for members to record their success or otherwise with the various credit card companies?

I'm pleased to report that Barclaycard have refunded my £67.50 without quibble.   :bounce:
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: 1936ace on June 23, 2019, 07:38:40 AM
Hello all
As per my NGF FB post, I can confirm I have received full refunds for my king deposit. Actually did a little better thanks to a different exchange rate.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: daveg on June 23, 2019, 08:39:52 AM
Good to read that the banks are being fairly quick off the mark with refunds.

Sad that some paid deposits by debit card are struggling to get anything back.

I'm instructed by The Boss to use only a CC when buying online other than really low value items.

Sad too that I won't ever get that baby Deltic but with already far too many locos to have on the layout I guess it's time for me to stop buying anything other than scenic bits and pieces.

How many times have I said that?  ;)

Dave G

Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bob Tidbury on June 23, 2019, 09:40:36 AM
daveg,
B H Enterprises are producing the full range of the Silver Fox Models by permission from John  Hazleton  this does include a Baby Deltic if you are interested ,Im not sure if `Ray has one in stock at the moment as we have been at a lot of shows recently .But  he should have some in stock ready for T I N G S
Bob Tidbury
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: emjaybee on June 23, 2019, 09:53:20 AM
I think all of Silver Fox Models are 4mm.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Busybee on June 23, 2019, 10:31:31 AM
Silver Fox produced a N Gauge 66, which I still have.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: honk843 on June 23, 2019, 12:38:50 PM
"I think all of Silver Fox Models are 4mm."

They certainly did two Baby Deltic bodies in 2mm amongst others. I have two of the head code disc ones which I got from BHE but are as Bob says originally from Silver Fox.

If you go down that road make sure you use the Bachman chassis rather than the Poole one which is a bit thicker.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: emjaybee on June 23, 2019, 02:08:29 PM
I think all of Silver Fox Models are 4mm.

Just what I read on their website, happy to be wrong.

Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bob G on June 23, 2019, 07:13:22 PM
Silver Fox started tentatively in N in about 1991-2 with their Hymek and Class 24 resin kits for the Farish 25 chassis. The 24 was very good, actually. The Hymek had thick window pillars in the front (for strength) so it never quite looked right. I think they followed these two with the baby Deltic. I had no idea they did a 66. Never seen one.
The resin moulds were sold to Heritage N IIRC, and I think they then passed to AEM (which are now called Leicester Modeller's) (with the greengrocer's apostrophe which really annoys me) and so now to BHE.
I hope this history is correct - its starting to get lost in the sands of time. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Best
Bob

Sorry about scope creep too!
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: ECMLfan on June 28, 2019, 08:30:49 AM
Sad to see the company go. It appears the model APT is just as troublesome as the real train as I had 2 orders in with Stanley and then with DJM...

I 'm confidant Mike and Ben will be able to pull it off as their RevolutioN brand is well established by now and clearly has a preferable track record.

I can only wish, ask and hope they will at least consider an expression of interest on their website for the APT as it would look pretty good next to the Pendolino's.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bob G on June 28, 2019, 08:48:20 AM
I can only wish, ask and hope they will at least consider an expression of interest on their website for the APT as it would look pretty good next to the Pendolino's.

Which APT?. They have had an EOI out for the APT-E for a while.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: ECMLfan on June 28, 2019, 09:14:17 AM
I can only wish, ask and hope they will at least consider an expression of interest on their website for the APT as it would look pretty good next to the Pendolino's.

Which APT?. They have had an EOI out for the APT-E for a while.
The 370
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 28, 2019, 10:17:54 AM
Given how little interest Dave had in the APT-P in N, I'm not sure I'd be picking that one up. Ok there will inevitably have been a "Dave factor" in there, some people simply didn't want to trust him with their money, but even if you assume Revolution could garner double the orders it was still way short of being viable.

Dave offered too many variants, but IMO you need some variation - as 14 coaches is too long for many.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Karhedron on June 28, 2019, 10:33:49 AM
Dave offered too many variants, but IMO you need some variation - as 14 coaches is too long for many.
The APT-P was a bit of minefield with many different vehicles and it ran in many different configurations both in testing and in revenue-earning service. Finding a compromise that allows a reasonable selection of different lengths without becoming a logistical nightmare would be quite a challenge.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: red_death on June 28, 2019, 10:43:58 AM
The full 14 car APT-P was only about 35m longer than an 11 car Pendolino - the Pendo has longer cars and doesn't have articulation. Of course the APT-P ran quite "regularly" in shorter sets. The level of variation in offering isn't too much of a problem as there isn't so much livery variation.

Way before DJM announced the APT-P a friend and I crawled over the set at Crewe to measure and photograph it with the idea of 3D printing it, then the guys in York got their 3D print on the way and other attractions took me away from the APT (mostly Pendolinos!).

The problem with the APT-P is amount of tooling and size of market - DJM had significantly less than 200 orders for his APT-P.  With the best will in the world that level of interest isn't anywhere near what you would need to make it happen - probably more like 1000 half sets as a minimum.

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on June 28, 2019, 11:06:07 AM
Dave offered too many variants, but IMO you need some variation - as 14 coaches is too long for many.
The APT-P was a bit of minefield with many different vehicles and it ran in many different configurations both in testing and in revenue-earning service. Finding a compromise that allows a reasonable selection of different lengths without becoming a logistical nightmare would be quite a challenge.

Yes sorry, I only really wrote half of that sentence! I know the 5-car Pendolinos weren't popular, but there are plenty of very achievable shorter-APTs that remain wholly prototypical. I'd have been sorely tempted by a 7 or 10 car, but probably not a 14. I take Mike's point though that the variations aren't as awkward as with some things because of livery consistency. I wonder if a Kato-esque "base pack and add-ons" would be a good way to approach the APT.

All firmly in the realms of theory given the apparently low uptake, mind!
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: austinbob on July 10, 2019, 08:32:21 AM
Just received  my King deposit refund from Halifax bank. No questions, no quibble. Very impressed  :) :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: doug22150 on July 10, 2019, 11:28:56 AM
You're very fortunate.  HSBC are refusing to refund my 2 deposits on the basis that, although paid as a single transaction, these were 2 separate orders, each under £100!
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on July 10, 2019, 11:35:15 AM
You're very fortunate.  HSBC are refusing to refund my 2 deposits on the basis that, although paid as a single transaction, these were 2 separate orders, each under £100!

You need to tell them the deposits were for two items each exceeding £100.  This is a try on.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: doug22150 on July 10, 2019, 11:41:22 AM
Thanks - I have just done precisely that but they are suggesting that I need to contact the receivers for confirmation that the models will not be delivered and then refer back to the HSBC Disputes Team.  I'm not very impressed with HSBC's handling of this.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on July 10, 2019, 12:00:21 PM
Contact CG, they'll provide written confirmation that the company is being liquidated, provide this to HSBC, I'd expect all the banks to want this.

As David says, the pertinent thing is that the full value of the product was over £100 (and under £30k). As long as you've paid any amount on credit card you're covered. Pay 5p on a credit card on a £20k car and you're covered.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Fardap on July 10, 2019, 12:25:23 PM
They are wrong see below and at link.

Items priced at more than £100, even if you paid for only some of it on credit card. So if you paid £30 on credit card but the item was for sale at £150, you are entitled to a refund of the full amount.

https://www.finder.com/uk/what-happens-when-you-get-a-credit-card-refund (https://www.finder.com/uk/what-happens-when-you-get-a-credit-card-refund)
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: austinbob on July 10, 2019, 12:44:59 PM
When I made my claim from Halifax bank I submitted....
Companies house record of going into receivership
DJ statement on going insolvent.
DJ Web page showing full price of model & deposit. Email invoice/receipt for deposit paid.
It took Halifax a couple of weeks to credit my card with the deposit.
 :beers:
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on July 10, 2019, 12:47:32 PM
When I made my claim from Halifax bank I submitted....
Companies house record of going into receivership
DJ statement on going insolvent.
DJ Web page showing full price of model & deposit. Email invoice/receipt for deposit paid.
It took Halifax a couple of weeks to credit my card with the deposit.
 :beers:

That's what I did with Barclaycard.  I called them first and got their form and it took two weeks.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: kelstonlad on July 10, 2019, 02:15:13 PM
I had similar problems with American Express, who were clearly keen to find reasons to reject my claim. Supplying them with a copy of my original invoice, and the page from the website, which together made it clear that I'd paid half of the £135 seemed to swing it.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njnall on July 10, 2019, 02:18:32 PM
My Barclaycard account was credited within 4 days of my claim with £67.50 for 1 King, there hasn't been any correspondence as yet on the terms of the refund.  With the claim form I enclosed copies of the initial 4 pages or so of the liquidators letter and the page stating there would be no money in the pot, a copy of my D J Models invoice and a couple of screenshots from the D J Models website.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Delboy on July 10, 2019, 02:23:54 PM
I am expecting a refund from my bank Santander but they are dragging their feet in the matter
They say they are looking into it and will respond in due course, whatever that means
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Delboy on July 10, 2019, 02:25:47 PM
My Barclaycard account was credited within 4 days of my claim with £67.50 for 1 King, there hasn't been any correspondence as yet on the terms of the refund.  With the claim form I enclosed copies of the initial 4 pages or so of the liquidators letter and the page stating there would be no money in the pot, a copy of my D J Models invoice and a couple of screenshots from the D J Models website.
Thatís what I did but still waiting
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njnall on July 10, 2019, 02:34:35 PM
My Barclaycard account was credited within 4 days of my claim with £67.50 for 1 King, there hasn't been any correspondence as yet on the terms of the refund.  With the claim form I enclosed copies of the initial 4 pages or so of the liquidators letter and the page stating there would be no money in the pot, a copy of my D J Models invoice and a couple of screenshots from the D J Models website.
Thatís what I did but still waiting

Hope your refund comes through soon
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Delboy on July 15, 2019, 03:59:10 PM
Just had a phone call from Santander to say I will receive a full refund within 5 days
Perhaps this should go in the happy thread
😀
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: honk843 on July 15, 2019, 05:35:56 PM
I wish people would stop celebrating the fact that they have got money back. I have lost £135 to DJM and will not get anything back from Barclays. had I have done so, or better still got the Kings from DJM, I would have ordered two 66xx from Revolution.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Karhedron on July 15, 2019, 05:39:17 PM
I wish people would stop celebrating the fact that they have got money back. I have lost £135 to DJM and will not get anything back from Barclays. had I have done so, or better still got the Kings from DJM, I would have ordered two 66xx from Revolution.

If you don't mind me asking, what reason did Barclays give for refusing? Section 75 would seem to be pretty watertight grounds for claiming.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: honk843 on July 15, 2019, 05:43:23 PM
The deposit was paid over 120 days before the Company collapsed and I should have claimed before that period had elapsed.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: red_death on July 15, 2019, 05:45:23 PM
I wish people would stop celebrating the fact that they have got money back. I have lost £135 to DJM and will not get anything back from Barclays.

I don't think anyone is celebrating getting money back, just sharing information that they have - that information is potentially valuable.  For example there are 3 or 4 people that have received refunds from Barclaycard - that is useful for you to know if you'd like to take things further with Barclaycard.

My quick summary is that the crucial points are:
- whether you paid by credit (Section 75) or debit card (chargeback);
- whether it was through Paypal or not;

and that you have to demonstrate to the card issuer that:
- the total amount was greater than £100 (for credit cards) even if only a smaller deposit had been paid;
- the time limits only apply from when you could reasonably have known that DJM was in liquidation. IIRC S.75 time limits are more generous than chargeback time limits.

Anyway, good luck!

Mike
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: tunneroner61 on July 15, 2019, 05:51:04 PM
I put down my deposit for a King in August 2018. I claimed the refund from Barclaycard late June 2019. That's most definitely more that 120 days. I got the refund last week with no quibbles.

Norman
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on July 15, 2019, 06:15:58 PM
The deposit was paid over 120 days before the Company collapsed and I should have claimed before that period had elapsed.

Push them on that - the 120 day limit is to stop apathy as much as anything.  You had no ability to claim sooner (within their time scale) because the company was still solvent and the delivery date of the product was not due. 
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on July 15, 2019, 06:39:23 PM
The deposit was paid over 120 days before the Company collapsed and I should have claimed before that period had elapsed.

That is wrong.  The claim date is 120 days from the day you became aware of the default not the day of payment.  Barclaycard has already paid out to several of us.

Unless of course you paid by a debit card.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Karhedron on July 15, 2019, 06:42:16 PM
The deposit was paid over 120 days before the Company collapsed and I should have claimed before that period had elapsed.

Did you pay on a credit card? If so, the 120 day limit does not apply. The statute limit for Section 75 is 6 years. It sounds to me like Barclays are making excuses in the hope that you will give up and go away.

Do not let them fob you off. Threaten to take them to the financial ombudsmen if they do not pay up. That should get a result. They really have no basis in law to dispute you.

All the above assumes that you paid on a credit card.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Delboy on July 15, 2019, 06:50:30 PM
I wish people would stop celebrating the fact that they have got money back. I have lost £135 to DJM and will not get anything back from Barclays. had I have done so, or better still got the Kings from DJM, I would have ordered two 66xx from Revolution.
Naturally I feel for anyone who has lost money on the venture and was just responding to previous posts that wished me luck.
If I have offended you because I am happy to get a refund, that was never my intention.
As Karhedron states, if it is Barclaycard you have used, then the law is on your side. Good luck.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: class37025 on July 15, 2019, 07:11:59 PM
as someone who is very grateful not to be in this position, it seems to me that those who have managed to get a refund, far from gloating, are simply saying how they managed, for the help of others.

I do not believe anyone on here would 'gloat' over those who are having problems getting their refunds, but are only supplying ammunition to those who are having problems with their banks.

just, for what it is worth, my view.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: red_death on July 15, 2019, 07:18:20 PM
The deposit was paid over 120 days before the Company collapsed and I should have claimed before that period had elapsed.

That is wrong.  The claim date is 120 days from the day you became aware of the default not the day of payment.  Barclaycard has already paid out to several of us.

Unless of course you paid by a debit card.

According to Martin Lewis the 120 days is irrelevant for credit cards and S75 and even for debit cards the 120 days is from date of failed delivery or date of company going bust - the crucial part is that you were paying for something with an extended delivery date. So there should be hope for most people.

See: https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/visa-mastercard-chargeback/ (https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/visa-mastercard-chargeback/)

Cheers Mike
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: honk843 on July 15, 2019, 07:25:05 PM
I will try again but this happened to me with Modelmaster too when they collected an unauthorised payment from my card. I foolishly took it up with Modelmaster initially trying to avoid getting them into trouble but that was only £15 or so.

I am sure it is just me as I seem to be the one who for some reason is not entitled but I will let you know the outcome in due course
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Rabbitaway on July 15, 2019, 09:56:21 PM
Changing subject, the reference to DJ Models being in receivership in the August issues of the railway modeller and hornby magazines is very brief and limited to a few lines in the edge column. You have to look hard to even find this. I could not even find the news in Model Rail.

Is this a case of political sensitivity to report a key news item in the world of model railways considering not everyone spends their time on the internet

Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bob G on July 15, 2019, 10:24:09 PM
Changing subject, the reference to DJ Models being in receivership in the August issues of the railway modeller and hornby magazines is very brief and limited to a few lines in the edge column. You have to look hard to even find this. I could not even find the news in Model Rail.

Is this a case of political sensitivity to report a key news item in the world of model railways considering not everyone spends their time on the internet

In the grand scheme, its not going to make a great bit of difference to the majority of modellers (who model in OO).
DJ Models was a small supplier, at the end of the day. Many DJM OO designs were done for other players, who are still solvent.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on July 15, 2019, 10:49:16 PM
And whilst people may not be all over the Internet theyíre unlikely to have had pre-orders with Dave if theyíre not at least vaguely aware of whatís going on and/or know people who do know about it.

Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: crewearpley40 on July 15, 2019, 10:56:29 PM
there was a very small piece in model rail but maybe 30 words
i cannot remember which copy. but the main focus should be on recovering money and following the various links on the steps on documentation, how to claim and what to submit to banks etc. wish you well, be honest im more interested in layouts, product reviews. wish you well
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Tim E on July 15, 2019, 11:09:43 PM
Just had a phone call from Santander to say I will receive a full refund within 5 days
Perhaps this should go in the happy thread
😀

I'm afraid I have not been as lucky, I paid for 2 Kings on a Santander Credit Card, all the evidence sumitted is in line with what others here have submitted as well.  I recieved a letter on Saturday saying my claim was being refused, suffice to say i've spoken to them today and even though a screenshot of the website has been submitted where it states the full price and that a 50% deposit is to be paid they are saying the amount I paid does not qualify.  Unfortunately the operative I was speaking to seemed to have little grasp of the actual consumer credit act when I was trying to explain that it goes off of the full value of the goods and not what has been paid thus far.  After a little while the operative obviously was getting annoyed and put the phone down on me.

Not really sure where to go from here now to be honest...
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Karhedron on July 15, 2019, 11:14:08 PM
Not really sure where to go from here now to be honest...

One more try and ask to speak to a supervisor. They should have a solid grasp of the legislation. If that does not work, contact the financial ombudsmen.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on July 15, 2019, 11:20:54 PM
You canít go to the ombudsman without exhausting the full complaints procedures internally; itís a final step. Donít play that card too early.

I agree with Karhedron though, phone back again, ask to speak to a supervisor if necessary, then complain. Theyíre wrong, thereís no excuse for that, stick to your convictions.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: crewearpley40 on July 15, 2019, 11:30:15 PM
Would it work personally going to a local branch, politely ask to see in a private room a manager and take documents receipts statements paperwork copies of forum relevant info and or citizens adv. Bureau? Just a thovght
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: PLD on July 15, 2019, 11:30:37 PM
Changing subject, the reference to DJ Models being in receivership in the August issues of the railway modeller and hornby magazines is very brief and limited to a few lines in the edge column. You have to look hard to even find this. I could not even find the news in Model Rail.

Is this a case of political sensitivity to report a key news item in the world of model railways considering not everyone spends their time on the internet
Possibly there is some sensitivity yes...
There are some forums and magazines that were (rightly or wrongly) perceived by some readers/commentators as being overly close to DJ and were accused of over promoting the company. Possible that some may be getting some 'heat' from disappointed readers and would want to down-play it...
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Snowwolflair on July 15, 2019, 11:34:17 PM
Changing subject, the reference to DJ Models being in receivership in the August issues of the railway modeller and hornby magazines is very brief and limited to a few lines in the edge column. You have to look hard to even find this. I could not even find the news in Model Rail.

Is this a case of political sensitivity to report a key news item in the world of model railways considering not everyone spends their time on the internet
Possibly there is some sensitivity yes...
There are some forums and magazines that were (rightly or wrongly) perceived by some readers/commentators as being overly close to DJ and were accused of over promoting the company. Possible that some may be getting some 'heat' from disappointed readers and would want to down-play it...

Some are accused of the opposite by not properly moderating the Trolls.  Either way I bet they are guilty as hell.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on July 15, 2019, 11:35:02 PM
Would it work personally going to a local branch, politely ask to see in a private room a manager and take documents receipts statements paperwork copies of forum relevant info and or citizens adv. Bureau? Just a thovght

It might, but all the manager is going to do is refer it up to you very same team you phone directly, they wonít be able to process a S75 refund in branch Iíll wager.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Delboy on July 16, 2019, 07:23:04 AM
Just had a phone call from Santander to say I will receive a full refund within 5 days
Perhaps this should go in the happy thread

I'm afraid I have not been as lucky, I paid for 2 Kings on a Santander Credit Card, all the evidence sumitted is in line with what others here have submitted as well.  I recieved a letter on Saturday saying my claim was being refused, suffice to say i've spoken to them today and even though a screenshot of the website has been submitted where it states the full price and that a 50% deposit is to be paid they are saying the amount I paid does not qualify.  Unfortunately the operative I was speaking to seemed to have little grasp of the actual consumer credit act when I was trying to explain that it goes off of the full value of the goods and not what has been paid thus far.  After a little while the operative obviously was getting annoyed and put the phone down on me.

Not really sure where to go from here now to be honest...

Do not give up
It seems so wrong that Santander are refunding my deposit but not yours.
I would press them and state you know that they have refunded other credit card holders in the same situation. Surely a precident has been set.
Did they state the reason you were being refused? If you presented them with the relevant documents of proof I feel they are obliged to refund you.
Good luck.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Nigel Cliffe on July 18, 2019, 05:39:52 PM
Just had a phone call from Santander to say I will receive a full refund within 5 days
Perhaps this should go in the happy thread
😀

I'm afraid I have not been as lucky, I paid for 2 Kings on a Santander Credit Card, all the evidence sumitted is in line with what others here have submitted as well.  I recieved a letter on Saturday saying my claim was being refused, suffice to say i've spoken to them today and even though a screenshot of the website has been submitted where it states the full price and that a 50% deposit is to be paid they are saying the amount I paid does not qualify.  Unfortunately the operative I was speaking to seemed to have little grasp of the actual consumer credit act when I was trying to explain that it goes off of the full value of the goods and not what has been paid thus far.  After a little while the operative obviously was getting annoyed and put the phone down on me.

Not really sure where to go from here now to be honest...

You go back to the card issuer, and state clearly that they are wrong under S.75, probably because they have misunderstand that the amounts are *deposits* with a balance to pay when the items are ready for delivery.   Do it in writing because they've written to you.    The claim under S.75 is watertight - you paid a deposit on a credit card for two items, the total price of each item was over £100, so S.75 applies.  You've notified them of the claim as soon as you became aware of the supplier (DJM) going into liquidation.    There will be template documents and appropriate wording on consumer affairs websites, such as "Which?" and "MoneySavingsExpert". 

If writing fails, go to the card issuer's complaints system in writing.   And only then escalate outside the bank. 

The case is watertight, but you may have to be persistent.   

(What they've done for others is largely irrelevant to a S.75 claim, so I'd not bring that up.  ).

 - Nigel
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Bingley Hall on July 21, 2019, 01:07:54 AM
Changing subject, the reference to DJ Models being in receivership in the August issues of the railway modeller and hornby magazines is very brief and limited to a few lines in the edge column. You have to look hard to even find this. I could not even find the news in Model Rail.

Is this a case of political sensitivity to report a key news item in the world of model railways considering not everyone spends their time on the internet
Possibly there is some sensitivity yes...
There are some forums and magazines that were (rightly or wrongly) perceived by some readers/commentators as being overly close to DJ and were accused of over promoting the company. Possible that some may be getting some 'heat' from disappointed readers and would want to down-play it...

Some are accused of the opposite by not properly moderating the Trolls.  Either way I bet they are guilty as hell.

Guilty of what exactly?

Guilty either way? That's a novelty, how does that work?

Time to break out the tin foil hats methinks  :dunce:
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Newportnobby on July 21, 2019, 10:55:10 AM
Global Moderator Comment Let's keep it to successfully getting any monies back or helping others to do so please
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Delboy on July 21, 2019, 12:20:13 PM
Let's keep it to successfully getting any monies back or helping others to do so please
On the subject of monies back, I applied for a refund a few weeks ago when it came to light that DJ Models were "no more" and can now confirm that my deposit refund has finally been received from Santander Credit Card Services. Hope this news encourages others to push for their monies owed under Section 75. Good luck.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: crewearpley40 on July 21, 2019, 12:26:01 PM
Agree with mick' s post and thats welcomming news delboy
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Tim E on July 23, 2019, 02:19:08 PM
Just had a phone call from Santander to say I will receive a full refund within 5 days
Perhaps this should go in the happy thread

I'm afraid I have not been as lucky, I paid for 2 Kings on a Santander Credit Card, all the evidence sumitted is in line with what others here have submitted as well.  I recieved a letter on Saturday saying my claim was being refused, suffice to say i've spoken to them today and even though a screenshot of the website has been submitted where it states the full price and that a 50% deposit is to be paid they are saying the amount I paid does not qualify.  Unfortunately the operative I was speaking to seemed to have little grasp of the actual consumer credit act when I was trying to explain that it goes off of the full value of the goods and not what has been paid thus far.  After a little while the operative obviously was getting annoyed and put the phone down on me.

Not really sure where to go from here now to be honest...

Do not give up
It seems so wrong that Santander are refunding my deposit but not yours.
I would press them and state you know that they have refunded other credit card holders in the same situation. Surely a precident has been set.
Did they state the reason you were being refused? If you presented them with the relevant documents of proof I feel they are obliged to refund you.
Good luck.

I have some good news on this.  So I persued the issue with the complaints proceedure that Santander have and have just had a call stating that my call was not handled properly at all, the call handler obviously did not want to listen (their words, not mine), and that on those grounds I will be getting a refund.  This was before the assessor even looked at any evidence submitted (basically everything needed under the legislation to qualify anyway!)

Thanks to all who have helped, and I will echo the comments here to not give up.  Even the assessor said today it wasn't a personal decision, they follow the letter of the law and there was clearly a breakdown here in the knowledge and understanding of said law by the original assessor to my case.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: crewearpley40 on July 23, 2019, 02:22:57 PM
that is very encouraging news
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Delboy on July 23, 2019, 02:25:32 PM
That's great news @HurricaneTich (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=1397),
As you said, let's hope others press for their due refunds via section 75.
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Nigel Cliffe on July 24, 2019, 03:26:17 PM

I have some good news on this.  ......Ö.I will be getting a refund. 

Good to hear, and thanks for reporting the success.     
Hopefully will encourage others with legitimate claims against credit card providers. 
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: ten0G on July 27, 2019, 10:58:54 AM
Pleased to find that when I checked my Nationwide a/c, an amount of £67.50 had been credited on Tuesday. 

This was a week after I emailed Nationwide copies of my email enquiry to CG and their reply, following a snail-mail response requesting them for evidence - rather surprising as I'd already emailed the CG documents with my claim on 3rd July. 

A big   :thankyousign:   to all for your advice, and more encouragement for those of you yet to claim successfully. 
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Dickydcc on July 27, 2019, 11:32:01 AM
It is good to see people getting there hard earned back & that members are helping each other. Has anyone heard if assets have been sold, is there any chance of any of the planned models being completed for sale?
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on July 27, 2019, 02:59:22 PM
There are no completed models. Theyíre said there are no assets to realise.   
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Roy L S on July 27, 2019, 03:44:14 PM
There are no completed models. Theyíre said there are no assets to realise.   

Is this the declared position of the Liquidation and is the Company now being wound up?

Tooling for the Mermaid clealy does exist and the Shark too from all accounts but even if ownership was proven realisation would not have been cost effective to pursue. The only other N Gauge tooling was for the Clayton which was completed but from all accounts that was the subject of a dispute between DJM and the factory that was engaged to produce them.

I guess the best/only prospect is that in time someone else might take the tooling on or commission models from it and they then appear under different branding, but I'm not holding my breath personally.

Roy
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on July 27, 2019, 03:47:36 PM
It was in the statements from CG some weeks ago, yes.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Dickydcc on July 27, 2019, 10:12:42 PM
Pity, I would have liked a J94 , class 17 or 23.....
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Roy L S on July 27, 2019, 11:18:01 PM
Yep, the Class 17 in particular was a loco I was looking forward to very much and it is such a shame it got as far as tooling and an EP and then no further. Will we now see one RTR in N? Never say never, but personally I am not holding my breath.

Roy
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: honk843 on August 10, 2019, 09:08:02 AM
This may be of interest because I used a debit card rather than a credit one for the deposit on two Kings.
Spurred on by encouragement from other participants following my earlier posts, I have had a reply from Barclays to a letter I wrote following a telephone call when I was told I would not get a refund.
The good news is I have received reimbursement of my £135.
The bad news is that Barclays have made it clear that they may take it back once their enquiries are concluded.
However it proves that if like me you used a debit card for the deposit then, if you write using a modified version of the draft letter way back on this subject, it is possible to get a refund under the "Cashback" agreement.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on August 10, 2019, 09:15:58 AM
No reason for them to take it back, theyíre just covering themselves if it turns out youíre lying!
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Delboy on August 10, 2019, 09:16:36 AM
That's great news
Good to know that others are benifitting from other members reports of success.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: ntpntpntp on August 10, 2019, 09:17:34 AM
...
The bad news is that Barclays have made it clear that they may take it back once their enquiries are concluded.

I wouldn't be too worried about that, I think that's a standard "warning".  I had something similar when I had to claim money back for a cancelled/failed music festival.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Skyline2uk on August 10, 2019, 09:39:27 AM
...
The bad news is that Barclays have made it clear that they may take it back once their enquiries are concluded.

I wouldn't be too worried about that, I think that's a standard "warning".  I had something similar when I had to claim money back for a cancelled/failed music festival.

Agreed

We had a similar letter from NatWest when we got our money back for Mrs Skylines Wedding Dress when the shop went belly-up. Wonít use a debit card again though!

Incidentally NatWest were superb, had the money back within 7 days.

Skyline2uk
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: REGP on August 10, 2019, 11:16:46 AM
I have recently received a refund of my deposit on a King which I paid by NatWest credit card.

It also included a similar rider so it looks like itís standard practise, it reads:

ďDJ MODELS LTD may provide more details about the disputed payment(s). This could lead to the temporary refund(s) paid to your account being reversed.

If you do not hear from us by 29 September 2019 the refund will remain in your account.Ē

Pity I just spent it on an Osborns  Crane.

Ray
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Cape Town Trev on August 19, 2019, 12:41:46 PM
As you'll probably gather from my moniker, I'm in Cape Town.
I lodged a refund request for one class 92 yesterday.  Just got a reply:
"Card issuing banks are bound by procedures, rules and time frames as determined by Visa/MasterCard International, in which disputed transactions may be addressed.

Should a dispute not be reported within the time frames as specified by Visa/MasterCard International, the card issuing bank may not be able to render any assistance to the cardholder in terms of resolving the dispute.

Please confirm when you were supposed to receive service or goods from the merchant as our records show that the disputed transaction date is 13 March 2017."

I have two queries: 1. Any evidence I can get as to expected delivery? and 2. What was the total price for an N gauge sound fitted class 92 - Caledonian Sleeper? Their next question maybe value of the total transaction.

Thanks in anticipation.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Delboy on August 19, 2019, 01:36:08 PM
As you'll probably gather from my moniker, I'm in Cape Town.
I lodged a refund request for one class 92 yesterday.  Just got a reply:
"Card issuing banks are bound by procedures, rules and time frames as determined by Visa/MasterCard International, in which disputed transactions may be addressed.

Should a dispute not be reported within the time frames as specified by Visa/MasterCard International, the card issuing bank may not be able to render any assistance to the cardholder in terms of resolving the dispute.

Please confirm when you were supposed to receive service or goods from the merchant as our records show that the disputed transaction date is 13 March 2017."

I have two queries: 1. Any evidence I can get as to expected delivery? and 2. What was the total price for an N gauge sound fitted class 92 - Caledonian Sleeper? Their next question maybe value of the total transaction.

Thanks in anticipation.
Hi Trev,
As far as the timescales, DJ Models only declared their situation in June this year so at your earliest convenience, since realising you were not getting the Class 92, you have requested a refund.
I received my refund for a deposit on a King, which really makes no difference. With regards to delivery date, I simply explained that the deposit was 50% of the final price which would be paid when the model was ready for dispatch. I was able to show this by accessing the website pages and printing off the relevant paperwork. Hopefully you can do likewise for your 92.
Regards Dennis.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Cape Town Trev on August 19, 2019, 02:16:54 PM
As you'll probably gather from my moniker, I'm in Cape Town.
I lodged a refund request for one class 92 yesterday.  Just got a reply:
"Card issuing banks are bound by procedures, rules and time frames as determined by Visa/MasterCard International, in which disputed transactions may be addressed.

Should a dispute not be reported within the time frames as specified by Visa/MasterCard International, the card issuing bank may not be able to render any assistance to the cardholder in terms of resolving the dispute.

Please confirm when you were supposed to receive service or goods from the merchant as our records show that the disputed transaction date is 13 March 2017."

I have two queries: 1. Any evidence I can get as to expected delivery? and 2. What was the total price for an N gauge sound fitted class 92 - Caledonian Sleeper? Their next question maybe value of the total transaction.

Thanks in anticipation.
Hi Trev,
As far as the timescales, DJ Models only declared their situation in June this year so at your earliest convenience, since realising you were not getting the Class 92, you have requested a refund.
I received my refund for a deposit on a King, which really makes no difference. With regards to delivery date, I simply explained that the deposit was 50% of the final price which would be paid when the model was ready for dispatch. I was able to show this by accessing the website pages and printing off the relevant paperwork. Hopefully you can do likewise for your 92.
Regards Dennis.
Thanks Dennis. Unfortunately when I try to access the website I cannot get details.  Strangely I can access my account on the DJ Models website but my Class 92 was done on Dave's old system which Dave said could not be transferred across.  Proof of my first 30GBP paid would be that he would not ask for the initial deposit only numbers 2 & 3!!!!!!!
Regards,
Trev
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Delboy on August 19, 2019, 02:52:58 PM

[/quote]
Thanks Dennis. Unfortunately when I try to access the website I cannot get details.  Strangely I can access my account on the DJ Models website but my Class 92 was done on Dave's old system which Dave said could not be transferred across.  Proof of my first 30GBP paid would be that he would not ask for the initial deposit only numbers 2 & 3!!!!!!!
Regards,
Trev
[/quote]
That,s not such good news for now but the law is on your side. Perhaps someone who has had success with the same deposit for a Class 92 can comment?
Best of Luck.
Dennis.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on August 19, 2019, 07:21:12 PM
I would use a recent email from Dave to show that delivery was at an as yet unconfirmed point in the future, combined with the date of administration.

The RMWeb has confirmation of prices, I want to say £205 for sound fitted.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Cape Town Trev on August 22, 2019, 01:14:30 PM
As you'll probably gather from my moniker, I'm in Cape Town.
I lodged a refund request for one class 92 yesterday.  Just got a reply:
"Card issuing banks are bound by procedures, rules and time frames as determined by Visa/MasterCard International, in which disputed transactions may be addressed.

Should a dispute not be reported within the time frames as specified by Visa/MasterCard International, the card issuing bank may not be able to render any assistance to the cardholder in terms of resolving the dispute.

Please confirm when you were supposed to receive service or goods from the merchant as our records show that the disputed transaction date is 13 March 2017."

I have two queries: 1. Any evidence I can get as to expected delivery? and 2. What was the total price for an N gauge sound fitted class 92 - Caledonian Sleeper? Their next question maybe value of the total transaction.

Thanks in anticipation.
Hi Trev,
As far as the timescales, DJ Models only declared their situation in June this year so at your earliest convenience, since realising you were not getting the Class 92, you have requested a refund.
I received my refund for a deposit on a King, which really makes no difference. With regards to delivery date, I simply explained that the deposit was 50% of the final price which would be paid when the model was ready for dispatch. I was able to show this by accessing the website pages and printing off the relevant paperwork. Hopefully you can do likewise for your 92.
Regards Dennis.
Just advised by my South African credit card - Virgin Money that my claim is denied on being outside the 120 days.  I responded saying I dispute this as I was advised of the failure to supply / liquidation on 6 June 2019 and I put in a claim on 19 August 2019 well within the 120 days.  I asked that the matter be referred to Visa / Mastercard international if this is VMSA's final decision.  I did say that I know of others being refunded even after they got this response from their card issuer.  I hope you guys are telling the truth  :D
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Delboy on August 22, 2019, 02:02:31 PM
We never tell the truth on this forum ;)
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on August 22, 2019, 02:08:53 PM
Just advised by my South African credit card - Virgin Money that my claim is denied on being outside the 120 days.  I responded saying I dispute this as I was advised of the failure to supply / liquidation on 6 June 2019 and I put in a claim on 19 August 2019 well within the 120 days.  I asked that the matter be referred to Visa / Mastercard international if this is VMSA's final decision.  I did say that I know of others being refunded even after they got this response from their card issuer.  I hope you guys are telling the truth  :D

No idea what the procedure is in South Africa, but in the UK you would complain first to the card issuer (ie Virgin) and then once you've exhuasted that you can appeal to the Financial Ombudsman Service (looks similar over there, you have FAIS Ombud).

Visa or Mastercard (they're different companies) don't factor at all, they simply facilitate the transactions via the card.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Cape Town Trev on August 22, 2019, 02:22:36 PM
Just advised by my South African credit card - Virgin Money that my claim is denied on being outside the 120 days.  I responded saying I dispute this as I was advised of the failure to supply / liquidation on 6 June 2019 and I put in a claim on 19 August 2019 well within the 120 days.  I asked that the matter be referred to Visa / Mastercard international if this is VMSA's final decision.  I did say that I know of others being refunded even after they got this response from their card issuer.  I hope you guys are telling the truth  :D

No idea what the procedure is in South Africa, but in the UK you would complain first to the card issuer (ie Virgin) and then once you've exhuasted that you can appeal to the Financial Ombudsman Service (looks similar over there, you have FAIS Ombud).

Visa or Mastercard (they're different companies) don't factor at all, they simply facilitate the transactions via the card.

I have found the Visa International merchants guide and quoted from the disputes section.  Basically if the card issuer gets a dispute then refers to merchant.  If merchant did not dispatch goods then "accepts dispute".  I again pointed out that the merchant DJ Models no longer exists - in liquidation.  Not sure about the 120 days limit but from you guys it is from when realised not being received to putting in claim, not when initial transaction made on credit card.

Thanks for the experiences on this topic which I cobbling for my claim.
 
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on August 22, 2019, 02:53:36 PM
Yep, absolutely, but you don't complain to Visa as part of that - just want to make sure you escalate to the right place :-)

And yes, the 'counter' starts on the earlier of the date you were due to receive the item or the date you became aware that you would not receive the item. Not the date of the transaction.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Delboy on August 22, 2019, 03:20:38 PM
Yep, absolutely, but you don't complain to Visa as part of that - just want to make sure you escalate to the right place :-)

And yes, the 'counter' starts on the earlier of the date you were due to receive the item or the date you became aware that you would not receive the item. Not the date of the transaction.

Exactly this.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Cape Town Trev on August 22, 2019, 06:18:57 PM
Just had feedback - outside time limit of 120 days.
Well I can escalate to ABSA bank, the bank that hosts Virgin Money card.  If ABSA was still a part of Barclays Bank I would ask them to collaborate with them.  ???
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: njee20 on August 22, 2019, 06:50:49 PM
Why? Just escalate to ABSA bank as theyíve requested. Donít bring Visa into it. Stick to the facts, see if you can find the relevant part of South African consumer legislation.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Cape Town Trev on August 22, 2019, 07:13:38 PM
Why? Just escalate to ABSA bank as theyíve requested. Donít bring Visa into it. Stick to the facts, see if you can find the relevant part of South African consumer legislation.
Just to clarify it is to ABSA that I have escalated to. Virgin said seek legal advice or refer to ABSA.
The other loco was paid on my debit card. Bank employee in branch was helpful we trawled my bank statement but couldnít find the transaction. Get home and an entry on 8 September 2018 jumps out DJ Models Liverpool!
My bank charges a recall fee but disputes team investigates first.
Bed time reading of the Consumer Protection Act awaits.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: honk843 on August 22, 2019, 07:24:39 PM
Can you just confirm that you have written to them (not e-mail) . I got lots of verbal about 120 days upon ringing but when I wrote to Barclays they refunded without a murmur (so far) and within 14 days I had the money back. I think before they put a response in writing it is referred upwards to avoid possible bad press coverage and claims to compliance enforcers.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: red_death on August 22, 2019, 08:41:44 PM
The 120 day period (according to Visa or MasterCard) only starts from date you know the problem not the transaction date.

As a second thought, given the transaction happened in the UK under UK law is the card issuer not bound by UK law? Might be worth asking the Financial Ombudsman.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Cape Town Trev on August 22, 2019, 09:03:07 PM
The 120 day period (according to Visa or MasterCard) only starts from date you know the problem not the transaction date.

As a second thought, given the transaction happened in the UK under UK law is the card issuer not bound by UK law? Might be worth asking the Financial Ombudsman.
I agree about the 120 day period just getting Virgin money to understand.
Your second thought as confirmed by my reading of the South African Consumer Protection Act means that I am not covered. The Act only covers transactions and supply in South Africa  :'(
I am in South Africa using a South African credit card.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: red_death on August 22, 2019, 11:24:54 PM
But my point wasn't about SA law but the law of where the transaction took place which is the UK (very clear under UK law about place of supply). That is why I would ask the UK Financial Ombudsman. The fact you have different legislation in SA is irrelevant in terms of the contract in the UK. So the question is whether foreign card issuers have to comply with UK law - my suspicion would be yes.
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Cape Town Trev on August 23, 2019, 06:31:27 AM
But my point wasn't about SA law but the law of where the transaction took place which is the UK (very clear under UK law about place of supply). That is why I would ask the UK Financial Ombudsman. The fact you have different legislation in SA is irrelevant in terms of the contract in the UK. So the question is whether foreign card issuers have to comply with UK law - my suspicion would be yes.
Hi Red Death, noted.  I have googled UK Financial Ombudsman and will fill in referral form.  Out of curiosity I wonder how they will enforce any action on a South African Bank.  But as I say nothing ventured nothing gained.
This morning I got a response from ABSA bank it was an email from the same person dealing with me under Virgin Money!!!!  Now he wants proof of intended delivery date.  I'm sure I sent DJ Models newsletters stating progress will be blah blah.  I bet if I said 12 months after deposit he'll say out of time! Has anyone else had this issue and what did they provide?
Thanks
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: NinOz on September 19, 2019, 12:35:11 PM
After a few months of no contact from the credit card provider (Visa) since the original submitting of documents, I have received a total refund (£270, approx AU$510). :claphappy:
Title: Re: The end of DJ Models?
Post by: Roy L S on September 19, 2019, 01:01:35 PM
It is good news that so many people have received refunds from credit card companies/banks, but I can't help reflecting that some less fortunate people haven't and won't.

Equally sobering is that even where people have received a refund there is still a loss that has to be absorbed by card companies, and I am suspecting by now this runs into many thousands of pounds.

I suspect those who have lost out will never find out exactly where this money went but it appears clear now that there was little tangible to show for it.

Roy
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