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Your Layout and Models => On My Workbench => Topic started by: emjaybee on May 21, 2019, 11:48:57 PM

Title: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: emjaybee on May 21, 2019, 11:48:57 PM
A while back whilst looking something up on Google I stumbled across a picture of the 40 ton LMS bogie brake van. It was not something I was aware of up until that point.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-210519223817.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=77683)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-210519234424.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=77689)
(Photograph from 'An Illustrated History of LMS Wagons by R.J.Essery, Volume 1 - Photograph by British Rail)

A short conversation was had about it on this forum, there were only three built and they worked around the Copley Hill to Armley line.

And then PaulPrice said to me "so when are you going to build one?", and it got me thinking.

Initially I dismissed the idea, but they are such a fantastic looking vehicle, and I don't consider myself a great modeller. Until I realised they share a lot of similarities to the LMS 20 ton brake van, from cabin dimensions, to veranda details etc. It occurred to me that it may be possible to produce a passable version (rivet counters may want to look away) without a major paint job, which I think is my weakness.

There followed a period of book buying guided by suggestions from other forum members and some 'estimating', and some online research which was pretty fruitless. Thank heavens for the thoroughness of R.J.Essery.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-210519230545.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=77684)

I managed to get three 20 ton brake vans, from two different sources, for under £30.

I removed the side steps, chassis, and internal cabin detail. Unfortunately the roof is moulded to the rest of the van, I had hoped it would be removeable.

One van was cut in half, and the veranda side windows cut out from the half shells. As the end result will be made from three bits I decided to 'step' the roof joint to hopefully give it a bit more strength, I also plan to glue some reinforcing across the joints where possible. The side lettering was carefully scraped off at this point.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-210519231650.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=77685)

The ends were removed from one other van to produce the middle section, again with a stepped roofline. The roof detail was removed from all three sections. Unless I can come up with some whizzy solution I'm afraid the guard is just going to have to put up with rain down the back of his neck.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-210519232048.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=77686)

The three bits are now married together after what seemed an age of filing and fitting.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-210519233051.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=77687)

There's been a lot of peering at my Peco N scale rule, and I reckon my version body is about 1" to 2" (scale inches!) longer than the prototype.

Once I've reinforced the roof joints and filled and sanded the roof I plan on replacing the chimney before painting the roof. If anyones got any ideas on forming rain mouldings I'd loved to hear from you.

That's it for a while.  I've got to cut and shut the two chassis from the base vans next. I've got some plateback bogies on order from the NGS, I've no knowledge of bogies in general, but these seem to look the most similar to prototype whilst being the correct wheelbase and wheel size.

 :wave:


Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: PLD on May 22, 2019, 12:18:24 AM
If anyones got any ideas on forming rain mouldings I'd loved to hear from you.
A thin strand of wire is the easiest option - a single strand from standard 7x0.2 will suffice.

Score a groove into the roof first to the right curvature then lay in the wire and flow liquid polystyrene cement along the length.
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: broadsword on May 22, 2019, 09:14:04 AM
Nice work, didn't know this vehicle existed, thought the SR Queen Mary was the only bogie brake.
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: Newportnobby on May 22, 2019, 09:43:10 AM
Most unusual, and a really good representation.
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: Dr Al on May 22, 2019, 09:57:37 AM
If anyones got any ideas on forming rain mouldings I'd loved to hear from you.

N Brass sell beading wire (is basically half circular cross section wire) which would be perfect for this.

Part is 23283:

https://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/fitbr.html (https://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/fitbr.html)

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: Bealman on May 22, 2019, 10:05:32 AM
Nice work, didn't know this vehicle existed, thought the SR Queen Mary was the only bogie brake.

Me too, though I was aware of the late Mr Essery's excellent publications on the LMS.

Looking forward to the finished model!
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: Bob G on May 22, 2019, 11:26:48 AM
Nice body.
What are you doing about the chassis?

(could apply to so many different conversations...)
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: emjaybee on May 22, 2019, 11:54:28 AM
If anyones got any ideas on forming rain mouldings I'd loved to hear from you.

N Brass sell beading wire (is basically half circular cross section wire) which would be perfect for this.

Part is 23283:

https://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/fitbr.html (https://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/fitbr.html)

Cheers,
Alan

That's helpful, what adhesive would you suggest?

Nice body.
What are you doing about the chassis?

(could apply to so many different conversations...)

Oo-err missus!

You must have missed it. The plan is to cut and shut the two original chassis from the donor vans. They have the solebar detail and should serve my purposes well, I've got the donor side steps which I plan to re-use to finish off.

I'm very much in the dark as to how to actually mount the bogies when they arrive. Pointers on that subject would also be welcome! Currently I'm thinking something along the lines of Heath and Robinson.

 :-X
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: zwilnik on May 22, 2019, 12:02:09 PM
I've used cotton before to do piping/beading etc. glued to the flat surface it's about the right thickness once painted and relatively easy to shape. (can even use card templates to help shape it)
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: Bealman on May 22, 2019, 12:17:59 PM
Best of luck with that, but you've made a great start, and I know it's going to end up just fine.

Better than that..... it'll be awesome.  :beers:
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: Bob G on May 22, 2019, 12:36:37 PM
Sorry - I meant to ask what are you doing about the bogies, but I guess a hankie would be the polite answer :)

I was trying to see if the running boards were on the chassis or bogies, and I see they are on both the bogies and chassis. Complicated or what!

Bob
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: emjaybee on May 22, 2019, 12:40:01 PM
Sorry - I meant to ask what are you doing about the bogies, but I guess a hankie would be the polite answer :)

I was trying to see if the running boards were on the chassis or bogies, and I see they are on both the bogies and chassis. Complicated or what!

Bob

The running boards should be relatively easy. The ones I removed from the donor vans have brackets and the short end steps, the bogie ones I'll just trim and stick to the sides of the bogie.
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: RailGooner on May 22, 2019, 02:25:08 PM
What an interesting, obscure, and attractive prototype. The model is shaping up to be equally attractive! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: Dr Al on May 22, 2019, 11:35:12 PM
That's helpful, what adhesive would you suggest?

Probably cyano is the way to go. Worth roughening the brass wire (a rub over the length with a fibre tipped pencil will do this).

Cheers,
Alan
Title: PART 2: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: emjaybee on May 31, 2019, 04:44:52 PM
This is the final installment, I promise.

The two donor chassis were trimmed to size and then filed to get as near perfect fit as possible. The three-piece roof was filled ready for sanding back.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519154214.jpeg)

The two parts were then clipped onto the body. Because of the way I’ve cut and shut the donor vehicles, the top still clips onto the chassis using the original clips.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519154324.jpeg)

The original underchassis plate from the donor vans with the brake gear on has been roughly trimmed to size for use later.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519154430.jpeg)

The NGS plate back bogies were assembled. They took a bit of fettling to get the wheelsets, from Dundas, to run freely, and the NGS couplings, despite my efforts do not lift and drop freely, but I’m at a loss as to how to get them any better.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519154552.jpeg)

For anyone who followed the other discussion I started about NGS bogies, I elected to have a crack at making my own bogie mounts. I used the bogie mount from the NGS Warwell kit as a ‘template’. The base is plasticard, the spigot is 4mm styrene tube. The small ‘spokes’ are thin rod glued to the base. These are necessary to stop the top of the bogie rubbing on the base, in effect they are a bearing surface. The brown ones were the first attempt, but didn’t lift the solebar clear of the bogie sides, so the grey rods were fitted which give just enough clearance between the solebar and the top of the bogie. The styrene rod was from a Slaters assortment pack.
Bogie retainers were made from plasticard and 2.5mm styrene rod.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519154743.jpeg)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519154845.jpeg)

The bogie mounts were glued to the chassis along with a further trimmed brake detail. I suspect the detail isn’t correct, but it’ll do for me, just gives a bit of something under the chassis. The under floor was then given a coat of black acrylic. As a point of interest, the Farish underfloor brake gear actually pivots freely in the ‘V’ hangars once the ends are disconnected.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519155118.jpeg)

Once the paint was dry, the chassis was carefully removed from the body, a reinforcing piece of plasticard was glued across the top of the joint and the small metal weights from the two donor vehicles were superglued to the top to add some weight. This little pile was also painted black so it shouldn’t be visible once assembled.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519155220.jpeg)

After sanding back the filler, the only work left on the body was the roof detail which I’d been dreading. Following @PLD (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=647) ‘s suggestion I decided on the wire method. I found a polythene supplement lid with a suitable radius and then trimmed it to produce a locatable and repeatable template. The opposite edge of the lid was trimmed so that it could be held/wedged against the body to stop it shifting. I used a ‘panel scribing’ tool, which I bought 30+ years ago (first time I’ve used it – I knew it would come in handy eventually!). The tool actually removes a thin strip of plastic. Strands of copper wire were trimmed, formed and glued into place with thin liquid poly.
Lastly, the chimney was made from some more plastic rodding and glued into place.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519155400.jpeg)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519155444.jpeg)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519155614.jpeg)

The body went off to the paint shop, where I masked off everything below the roof. Two light coats of primer, two light coats of Tempest Grey, followed by a coat of satin lacquer.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519155713.jpeg)

The running boards were always going to be tricky, so I started by cutting and fixing the ones attached to the solebar so I’d got a level for the bogie mounted ones. Running boards for the bogies were cut from the surplus donor running boards and glued at the appropriate level to the side of the bogies. They’re not stunningly good, but without zooming in on a digital photo you’d be hard pressed to tell. I did find I had to nick the back corner off the ends of the fixed running boards to enable the chassis to navigate tight radii.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519155915.jpeg)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519160019.jpeg)

Only some small details left to do, cabin ends and pipework.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519160123.jpeg)

The end panels for the cabin were glued back into their rightful place, and the pipework into the original location on the ends.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519160210.jpeg)

Finally, with a bit of a fiddle the chassis and body were reunited (and a small step glued back on – again!).

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519160314.jpeg)

For comparison purposes, here's the 40T bogie brake with a donor van and a Peco van.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519160534.jpeg)

I apologise to the rivet-counters and perfectionists, it has the wrong vehicle number, I may rectify this in the future by overlaying white and black blanking decals followed by the correct number. It also has two 'plates' each side, but it'll have to live with that for the time being.

The original plan was to try to make a passable representation of a 40T LMS bogie brake without doing a major repaint. I'm pretty chuffed with the end result, it's not perfect but I don't think it's too bad. I am really pleased with the roof, that came out far better than I anticipated.

I hope I haven't bored the heck out of everyone, thanks for reading.

 :wave:








Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: RailGooner on May 31, 2019, 05:15:41 PM
Love it. You should be well pleased. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: Dr Al on May 31, 2019, 05:34:24 PM
Great modelling of an unusual and interesting prototype.

cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: Paddy on May 31, 2019, 06:04:06 PM
That is so well executed - lovely model.

Paddy
Title: Re: PART 2: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: Newportnobby on May 31, 2019, 10:17:25 PM

The original plan was to try to make a passable representation of a 40T LMS bogie brake without doing a major repaint. I'm pretty chuffed with the end result


And so you should be. A smashing bit of modelling.
Title: Re: PART 2: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: emjaybee on May 31, 2019, 10:27:31 PM

The original plan was to try to make a passable representation of a 40T LMS bogie brake without doing a major repaint. I'm pretty chuffed with the end result


And so you should be. A smashing bit of modelling.

Thanks very much.

After I had a go at painting that 6 wheel CCT and did a poor job with the paint it kind of knocked my confidence a bit. This was less daunting in that most of it was just a case of cutting in the relevant places, joining together, and painting the roof. With the guidance of other forum members on keeping the base model/surface grease and finger print free the roof came out great and it's boosted my confidence in using rattle cans on small models.
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: emjaybee on June 02, 2019, 12:31:19 AM
Great modelling of an unusual and interesting prototype.

cheers,
Alan

Well, a while back on the forum there was a big, sometimes a little heated, discussion about all our wishlists and whether we should have a go at making stuff rather than just complaining that manufacturers don't make it. Both you and I were involved. So I decided I'd make a bit more of an effort and have a go. I've also got some NGS wagon kits on the go. So thanks for the encouragement and the comments. I'm not at your standard, but I've made a start.

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: Newportnobby on June 02, 2019, 09:22:08 AM
I reckon an article for the new editor of the NGS Journal awaits
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: Bealman on June 02, 2019, 09:27:22 AM
Agree. You could go for RM as well.  :beers:
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: maridunian on June 04, 2019, 08:51:35 AM
Wow - just catching up on this thread. You've done an excellent job. I'm most impressed by the roof - no sign of joins, perfect alignment of sections and the rail strips certainly prompt me to think about conversions I've done where I let the occupants soak rather than tackle these.

Mike
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: emjaybee on June 04, 2019, 10:11:24 AM
Wow - just catching up on this thread. You've done an excellent job. I'm most impressed by the roof - no sign of joins, perfect alignment of sections and the rail strips certainly prompt me to think about conversions I've done where I let the occupants soak rather than tackle these.

Mike

I can't take credit for the weather strip method, PLD off this forum suggested it. I was originally going to let the water run down the guards neck.

You're not doing so bad yourself, I've been looking at your tipper wagons.

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: PART 2: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: CarriageShed on June 10, 2019, 02:09:54 PM
For anyone who followed the other discussion I started about NGS bogies, I elected to have a crack at making my own bogie mounts. I used the bogie mount from the NGS Warwell kit as a ‘template’. The base is plasticard, the spigot is 4mm styrene tube. The small ‘spokes’ are thin rod glued to the base. These are necessary to stop the top of the bogie rubbing on the base, in effect they are a bearing surface. The brown ones were the first attempt, but didn’t lift the solebar clear of the bogie sides, so the grey rods were fitted which give just enough clearance between the solebar and the top of the bogie. The styrene rod was from a Slaters assortment pack.
Bogie retainers were made from plasticard and 2.5mm styrene rod.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519154743.jpeg)

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519154845.jpeg)

The bogie mounts were glued to the chassis along with a further trimmed brake detail. I suspect the detail isn’t correct, but it’ll do for me, just gives a bit of something under the chassis. The under floor was then given a coat of black acrylic. As a point of interest, the Farish underfloor brake gear actually pivots freely in the ‘V’ hangars once the ends are disconnected.

(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/77/5604-310519155118.jpeg)


I was part of that other discussion, and I'm really happy to seen what you decided on doing after it. That's brilliant. I will have to copy you next time I need to create a coach chassis from scratch.

Overall the brake van is superb. I'm all for getting the right 'feel' of accuracy rather than getting every rivet in its correct place.
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: Papyrus on June 10, 2019, 04:03:36 PM
Wow - just catching up on this thread. You've done an excellent job.
Mike

 :goggleeyes:  :wonderfulmodelling:  :goggleeyes:

Ditto!! I've not seen this thread before, or this brake van, come to that. To me, that project would come into Category 5 (Fiendishly Difficult) and you've done a brilliant job. Well done!

Cheers,

Chris
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: maridunian on November 23, 2019, 04:54:44 PM
Wow - just catching up on this thread. You've done an excellent job. I'm most impressed by the roof - no sign of joins, perfect alignment of sections and the rail strips certainly prompt me to think about conversions I've done where I let the occupants soak rather than tackle these.

Mike

Hi - I've just enjoyed reading your article about this project in the NGS Journal.

What I hadn't really appreciated when I originally read this thread is that you preserved the original vans' paintwork. That's doubly impressive considering all the cutting you had to do!

Mike


Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: emjaybee on November 23, 2019, 05:40:38 PM
Wow - just catching up on this thread. You've done an excellent job. I'm most impressed by the roof - no sign of joins, perfect alignment of sections and the rail strips certainly prompt me to think about conversions I've done where I let the occupants soak rather than tackle these.

Mike

Hi - I've just enjoyed reading your article about this project in the NGS Journal.

What I hadn't really appreciated when I originally read this thread is that you preserved the original vans' paintwork. That's doubly impressive considering all the cutting you had to do!

Mike

Hi Mike,

Yes, I was still getting over the lash up of my paintwork on my six wheel CCT van when I started so I wasn't keen on a full respray, hence it was only the roof that got a full repaint.

Thanks for the kind words on the article.

As an aside, you've inspired me to have a crack at designing my own wagon with Tinkercad, but I'm struggling to be honest. It's been much harder to design a 3D design than I thought.

Mike.
Title: Re: 40 Ton LMS bogie brake van.
Post by: maridunian on November 23, 2019, 11:04:56 PM

As an aside, you've inspired me to have a crack at designing my own wagon with Tinkercad, but I'm struggling to be honest. It's been much harder to design a 3D design than I thought.

Mike.

That's great that you're getting into 3D. Although I'm less than a year into this, my earliest designs now make me cringe, but I knew I'd only get anywhere incrementally, so persevered, learning as I went.

Mike
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