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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Snowwolflair on January 27, 2019, 03:25:02 PM

Title: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 27, 2019, 03:25:02 PM
Shapeways recently changed their pricing model increasing the price of new models.

From the 30/31st January historic models like ATSO's, Snowwolflair, 3DR and others will have their existing prices revised.

In my case this ranges from 50% to 350% increases

If there are any models you have been thinking about buying then now is the time to act.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: RailGooner on January 27, 2019, 03:41:10 PM
These price increases combined with the inevitable import duties after March, will I think, mean the end of the UK market for Shapeways.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 27, 2019, 03:47:45 PM
These price increases combined with the inevitable import duties after March, will I think, mean the end of the UK market for Shapeways.

Mike  (revolution) thought no duties but we shall see.  Regardless the price increases is a problem.

I'm looking at other print sources, however Shapeways is the only one with a shop.  So in future I might design and prove with Shapeways and then get printed elsewhere cheaper :D

If this worked is there a potential for an NGF expansion of the N'porium for 3D prints being sold by designers and a cut to the forum? @Tank (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2)
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Bob G on January 27, 2019, 04:00:52 PM
I bought the Leader kit two weeks ago from Shapeways. With two Tomytec HM-01 chassis from Plazajapan, the price was about £165. Thought it was expensive but glad it did it before the price rise. They arrived this week. Very nice well thought out kit actually, especially in ultra fine grain.
I'm happy to use the small diameter wheels on the two mini chassis as I dont have the desire to hack two Q1s like @Snowwolflair (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3761) wants to do, and I want a simpler build. But I will do something about the top speed of these motors, like wiring them in series or something, and a thumping great resistor :)

I'm now off to comb Shapeways for other southern stuff....

Bob
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: The Q on January 27, 2019, 04:17:49 PM
These price increases combined with the inevitable import duties after March, will I think, mean the end of the UK market for Shapeways.

I'm looking at other print sources, however Shapeways is the only one with a shop.  So in future I might design and prove with Shapeways and then get printed elsewhere cheaper :D
@Tank (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2)

https://i.materialise.com/en/shop/category/scale-models (https://i.materialise.com/en/shop/category/scale-models)
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: NTrain on January 27, 2019, 04:24:38 PM
I have been a customer of Shapeways since their early days, when they first started as post graduate students.

It has been a rocky road. They change rules. Items you have ordered for years, suddenly no longer printable. I stopped using their WSF, because the quality was changeable.

I was on the trial for the new HP 3D printer which was hyped as being a very economical machine. During the trial, the prices were very good and, I found I liked the material, I was about to check out dimensional issues, as this had been discussed, when the trial ended, and now the price is about the same as FUD, for a material which is basically WSF+. Dropped that material from my portfolio in a shot......

I have tried hard to find alternatives to Shapeways FUD, but have not been able to find anyone able to compete on price etc.

I would very much like to find a UK supplier for my FUD products, but UK industry is not interested in small business.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 27, 2019, 04:25:22 PM
These price increases combined with the inevitable import duties after March, will I think, mean the end of the UK market for Shapeways.

I'm looking at other print sources, however Shapeways is the only one with a shop.  So in future I might design and prove with Shapeways and then get printed elsewhere cheaper :D
@Tank (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2)


https://i.materialise.com/en/shop/category/scale-models (https://i.materialise.com/en/shop/category/scale-models)


Yes I'm looking at them but their shop software is way behind the cure, not to say they will catch up.

When I get time I'm going to get test prints from several of these newcomers and I'm also on the lookout for a UK source.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: RailGooner on January 27, 2019, 04:28:00 PM
These price increases combined with the inevitable import duties after March, will I think, mean the end of the UK market for Shapeways.

Mike  (revolution) thought no duties but we shall see.  Regardless the price increases is a problem.
...

Ah, yes, I remember reading that now. And Mike's far better placed than I am to know about such things, so I happily concede.

I think the price increases alone will probably be enough to kill off most a lot of future UK trade though. My pending order - waiting for payday on the 30th - will be my last.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: njee20 on January 27, 2019, 05:42:35 PM
I only used to order when they did free shipping, but Iíve not seen one of those deals for a while. There are a few bits I want, so it seems now is the time to purchase. Shame, but they do seem to have been getting less and less competitive for years, At a time when Iíd expect the opposite. That said the fact there isnít an obvious competitor suggests they continue to have a monopoly. I wonder if a lot of people are just printing at home as home printers have come on and there isnít the margins to justify Shapeways Ďchallengesí.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: thebrighton on January 27, 2019, 07:32:09 PM
I've been waiting in hope of a free postage offer too but they seem to have dried up. As it looks like they're going to be pricing themselves out of my budget I put an order in on the 19th for the last few things I wanted. Expected delivery was the 11th Feb but 3 of the 4 items were already printed by the 20th with one failing and having to be reprinted but they were still despatched by the 25th and due to arrive tomorrow.
The reason for my long ramble is that I've ordered stacks from Shapeways over the years have never seen a turnaround that quick, nowhere near, which may suggest they are already seeing orders dropping off significantly.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 27, 2019, 07:33:57 PM
I've been waiting in hope of a free postage offer too but they seem to have dried up. As it looks like they're going to be pricing themselves out of my budget I put an order in on the 19th for the last few things I wanted. Expected delivery was the 11th Feb but 3 of the 4 items were already printed by the 20th with one failing and having to be reprinted but they were still despatched by the 25th and due to arrive tomorrow.
The reason for my long ramble is that I've ordered stacks from Shapeways over the years have never seen a turnaround that quick, nowhere near, which may suggest they are already seeing orders dropping off significantly.

I agree that's what i'm seeing as well.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: njee20 on January 27, 2019, 07:45:11 PM
Intriguing. Perhaps the pricing change is a last stab to wring a bit more out of the Ďcoreí buyers in their dying throes!
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: RailGooner on January 27, 2019, 08:05:19 PM
I've been waiting in hope of a free postage offer too but they seem to have dried up.
...

And me. My wishlist has been steadily increasing since the summer hoping for a shipping offer.


..
I wonder if a lot of people are just printing at home as home printers have come on and there isnít the margins to justify Shapeways Ďchallengesí.

I reckon you could have something there.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: EtchedPixels on January 27, 2019, 11:15:30 PM
These price increases combined with the inevitable import duties after March, will I think, mean the end of the UK market for Shapeways.

Mike  (revolution) thought no duties but we shall see.  Regardless the price increases is a problem.

If we stay in the EU - no duties

If we agree a deal - no duties for now (on most stuff). Then there will be a customs deal negotiated which is likely to be for no duties on a lot of stuff.

Hard brexit - at minimum significant duties and of course being mugged by the parcel company for 'processing'. Also none of the parcels companies and customs have enough staff so you'll be stuck behind urgent items like medicine and food).

One reason I've got so much out of stock is that I'm still waiting to work out what is going to happen. If we have a hard brexit then I'm closing down. No point carrying on given the way the prices of everything will shoot up. If we get a deal then great I can order stuff.

In some ways btw I am glad Shapeways is sticking the prices way up. The are becoming a near monopoly player so if they are sufficiently greedy (anyone suspect they want to hit the stock market soon....) that they drive people to smaller rivals in the long term that will be a good thing.

What we actually need is cheap home 3D printers that can do Shapeways quality pre-coloured 8)


Alan
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: woodbury22uk on January 28, 2019, 10:44:41 AM


If we stay in the EU - no duties

If we agree a deal - no duties for now (on most stuff). Then there will be a customs deal negotiated which is likely to be for no duties on a lot of stuff.

Hard brexit - at minimum significant duties and of course being mugged by the parcel company for 'processing'. Also none of the parcels companies and customs have enough staff so you'll be stuck behind urgent items like medicine and food).


Alan



Most of our toy stuff is not subject to duties under WTO rules, but HMRC will probably still extract VAT (or whatever we call on from 30 March) for goods purchased outside the UK. I am not sure what safety compliance provisions apply. Most countries accept compliance with EU rules on toy safety.


Detailed trade codes are here.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/classifying-toys-games-and-sports-equipment (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/classifying-toys-games-and-sports-equipment)

Tariffs can be viewed here:-

http://tariffdata.wto.org/Default.aspx?culture=en-US (http://tariffdata.wto.org/Default.aspx?culture=en-US)
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: njee20 on January 28, 2019, 10:47:51 AM
Needed some replacement bogie pins, this Etched Pixels bloke ones were good value, so hopefully another 20p for the coffers!
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: JimSan on January 28, 2019, 10:57:29 AM
What we actually need is cheap home 3D printers that can do Shapeways quality pre-coloured 8)

Ever since reading this thread last night, have been taking a look into affordable home 3d printers, so far the Creality Ender 3 is looking like a good contender, while yes it would require some modifications to improve things from it's stock setup (which from what I've read, aren't expensive either) and needs a fine tuned profile, some people have been getting figurine level of detail which I would consider acceptable for N gauge.

Example images (https://imgur.com/gallery/pvuYDL0)

Don't think it can come pre-coloured unless you want to switch the PLA rolls out between parts heh, but for less than £200 it looks interesting and thinking of getting one at some point.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 28, 2019, 11:38:20 AM
The ANYCUBIC Photon 3D Printer is the best bet so far printing in resin with a 115mm by 65mm build plate and works on stereoscopic lithography  (UV resin cure).  If the build plate was 50% bigger you could do Mk3 coaches and I believe that's in the plans.  As it is locos etc. can be done flat and Mk3 coaches at an angle.

The software is good and it prints from a USB stick so no dedicated computer required.

In general PLA and other thermoplastic extrusion printers are not good enough for N gauge, you just cannot get it to make fine enough detail.  they are useful for some OO and are taking off big time in O.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: EtchedPixels on January 28, 2019, 07:39:11 PM
WTO rules wouldn't apply. That's one of the myths. Adhoc rules would apply until our WTO submissions were approved, about 4 laws amended and 600 odd standing orders changed. The adhoc rules might be WTO rules but its entirely up to the governments involved to make up a number - some kind of sanity might even apply.

VAT is a big problem though because you'll have to hope Shapeways has the set up in place to let you claim the VAT back/avoid paying it (as a non EU customer), then pay it to parcelfarce or similar (plus £20 for the privilege of a tiny piece of paper and some bits moving in a computer database).

It's an even bigger problem outgoing for a business as you will need to be registered under the EU VAT scheme to sell into the EU and must charge the EU citizen the correct VAT blah bah... and there is no floor as far as I know for registering. In addition you can't register for the scheme unless you are VAT registered, which for a small business is akin to sticking your fingers into beehives for fun.  For business incoming you need an EORI and all the crap that goes with it.

(I won't be supplying EU citizens once we leave unless that is avoiding in whatever exit scheme we end up in)

If you aren't a business - you don't have to worry about the business parts. That usually also includes cases where you charge people enough to defray costs which is a nice change from the general madness the taxman inflicts on us all.

Alan
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: EtchedPixels on January 28, 2019, 07:47:16 PM
The ANYCUBIC Photon 3D Printer is the best bet so far printing in resin with a 115mm by 65mm build plate and works on stereoscopic lithography  (UV resin cure).  If the build plate was 50% bigger you could do Mk3 coaches and I believe that's in the plans.  As it is locos etc. can be done flat and Mk3 coaches at an angle.

That sounded really interesting until I checked the price of materials. It's still amazing considering what such a device cost even five years ago.

I don't think printing angled is a problem. With Shapeways I printed a pile of stuff together with short vehicles and wagons and the coaches angled across the middle in order to avoid similar limits at the time when printing some ETR500 coach shells. (The power cars are Del Prado and there was a motorising kit)

Damn.. I'm so tempted but right now I have too many other things to do and it still feels like the days of the 386 PC where if you bought one it was obsolete by the time you unpacked it 8)


 Alan
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 28, 2019, 08:33:41 PM
Quote
Damn.. I'm so tempted but right now I have too many other things to do and it still feels like the days of the 386 PC where if you bought one it was obsolete by the time you unpacked it 8)

and now computers are beyond what we need. I estimate 3D printers have 4 years to reach the same state of development.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: njee20 on January 28, 2019, 10:36:14 PM
How can you say that? Given stuff is still being developed that utilities the very best hardware available. Diminishing returns, I accept, but you cannot say that computers are beyond what  ďweĒ need.

It seems that there is more innovation coming from home printing, which again reinforces thatís where the marketís Headed. Thereís an interesting thread on RMWeb I suspect youíve seen with examples of printing in N/2FS. The results look excellent, and generally surpass Shapeways offerings. If I could do CAD Iíd get a printer straight away!
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 28, 2019, 10:46:39 PM
How can you say that? Given stuff is still being developed that utilities the very best hardware available. Diminishing returns, I accept, but you cannot say that computers are beyond what  ďweĒ need.

It seems that there is more innovation coming from home printing, which again reinforces thatís where the marketís Headed. Thereís an interesting thread on RMWeb I suspect youíve seen with examples of printing in N/2FS. The results look excellent, and generally surpass Shapeways offerings. If I could do CAD Iíd get a printer straight away!

Well i'm using a 4 screen 40 core Xeon computer with 128GB of Ram and 4TB of raid SSD, and your suggesting I need more  :D
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: njee20 on January 29, 2019, 08:05:59 AM
No Iím not, please show me where I said that. Iím suggesting you canít possibly say ďweĒ cannot utilise available performance, you donít speak for the whole of humanity, hard as that may be to believe! You may not, I may not, but thatís not the same. The Xeon 20 core processors have been around for a couple of years now anyway, and only 128GB RAM, hardly cutting edge, dual CPU motherboards have been supporting 256GB for years ;)

Anyway, thatís totally OT. It would be great if home printers got to the stage that they could print a house in 20 minutes with layers 0.000001mm thick and most people still used them for printing some n gauge models (to continue the tortured PC analogy). Itís those who do utilise the bleeding edge that drive the performance forward and the cost down, and the 99.99% of people who do little more than open Chrome or Word benefit from this.

Still doesnít get me any good at CAD though :hmmm:

As an aside my Shapeways order progressed to printing very quickly, interested to see how long it is to despatch, does suggest as above theyíre hardly inundated.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Bob G on January 29, 2019, 09:45:26 AM
I was told my order of 17 Jan was due around 4 Feb. It arrived 22 Jan.
As you say, are  they a little short of work?
I dont usually raise my consultancy fees when I'm short of work, but who knows?
Perhaps they have a different business model?

Bob
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: njee20 on January 29, 2019, 10:00:05 AM
It would be really interesting to delve into their business model a bit, I wonder what proportion of people are printing their own designs, or buying others, average order sizes etc. There are some crazy expensive things on there. The margins must be big, although I know you can't tell what the designers have added.

It doesn't feel they've innovated at all at a time when the industry has really moved on.

Then again there's no pretender to the throne, so I guess for those who don't have the ability to print their own you have little choice. That said I don't think I've bought anything overly exciting, just various wagons and bits that I'd just do without if the prices escalated as they seem to be about to.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: emjaybee on January 29, 2019, 10:12:36 AM
Since this news came about I've placed my one and only Shapeways order. Two 'scratch aid' wagons, a six wheel LMS milk wagon and a pre-war Sentinel shunter. I don't NEED any of these, but they're all things I've been looking at over the last couple of years out of curiosity. News of the impending price rise has prompted the purchase.

As mentioned previously, some of the charges for prints is staggering. There's a couple of interesting wagons, but at over £80 you've got to be seriously committed to the cause.

I've not dabbled in 3D printing and am unlikely to do so, but having looked at some of the machines suggested by other posters I can understand why the 'keener' modeller would invest in one.

Maybe as people on this forum design wagons/locos etc. they may make them available to other forum members (for appropriate remuneration) who don't have CAD and 3D capabilities.

It is certainly an interesting field, an Etched Pixels CCT is my first 3D experience, and one that can only help the hobby.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Newportnobby on January 29, 2019, 10:26:54 AM
Like emjaybee I've just used Shapeways for the first time and ordered a diesel brake tender body so as to beat the increase.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Doc Pye on January 29, 2019, 04:28:51 PM
Okay, apologies if this sounds rude but Alan you clearly don't know what you are talking about. I won't get into the leave/remain debate as it is pointless. However, your comment about the UK not being part of the WTO and this being some type of 'myth' is just plain wrong.

FYI, the United Kingdom has been a WTO member since 1 January 1995 and a member of GATT since 1 January 1948. So much of your scaremongering arguments fall flat.

Of course if you want to believe the sky will fall then so be it.

Again, not trying to start any fight on things but people really have to start getting a better grip on facts and reality.

As for Shapeways, they have been overpriced for ages, and their quality has been hit and miss, with more miss of late. It was a great idea that just hasn't panned out with customers and designers.

I don't profess to be an expert at all on 3D printing and such (I do profess to be an expert on econ matters, as I do that as part of my living) but I can see printers and consumables all coming down. Much like the intro of VCR tech prices are dropping and the equipment is getting better. So one day soon I think many in the hobby will have their own 3D printers and make their own parts. :)
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: EtchedPixels on January 29, 2019, 06:12:41 PM
While we are a member we trade under the consolidated EU good schedule. When we leave we have to trade under our own. In particular the EU has quotas on all sorts of stuff. When the UK leaves the EU the quota has to be split. Various third parties object to how the UK and EU are splitting the quota.

We have to produced what is called a draft schedule. That has to be approved by the WTO and there are already objections to our filing. In the non hard brexit case that's kind of 'meh, usual' and we have discussions and it gets sorted out by the usual deals, threats, arm twisting and plain old ignoring the rules and daring people to pick a fight.

Until the DG of the WTO signs it off it's just a piece of paper.

In the sane case this doesn't matter. By the time everything unwinds it's signed and a load of free trade deals will hopefully have been signed anyway.

Agreed on Shapeways.

Agree likewise on the 3D printers. It really does remind me of the points in computing where the prices crashed and the tech got way better: More so the shift from the early machines to the big 8bit ones. Where we suddenely went from £900 computers or £600 kits that needed a month to assemble to £200 computers in Smiths.

The consumable prices are also getting a lot better. You can already get 'clone' resins and the like just like for ink jet ripoff printers.

Alan
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Railwaygun on January 29, 2019, 08:30:20 PM
This is an apolitical forum - please take this off line before blood flows!,

Or Robomod will Be in action!
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Buzzard on January 29, 2019, 09:14:30 PM
they have been overpriced for ages

Which for them is a rather silly business model as it puts people off.

A while back I bought a single example of a large bogie wagon with a view to seeing what it was like and how the finished thing would look.  My aim was to have a rake of 10 or 12.  Then the prices started to drift upwards and today at over £31 per wagon I refuse to buy any more.

The other thing we must consider is the impact that reducing sales has on the income of the designers.  Many of those individuals have spent a lot of time and cash to develop and test print a model before releasing it for the rest of us to buy and enjoy.

I for one am glad to be able have a niche model or two that would never be made by the r-t-r brigade.

I will be sticking in an order for a few last bits.  I've noted down some current prices and will be doing a comparison next week to see how much more is being asked for sometimes quite small models.  That information will dictate whether I give Shapeways any further business.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 29, 2019, 09:23:08 PM
I think we are looking at Shapeways through N gauge binoculars.  Digging deeper some of their material offerings have not increased and a couple have dropped in price.

It looks as if they have done a return on investment calculation by material and capital invested to make it, and concluded to cover the investment in the materials we primarily focus on the prices have to go up.

Also if you look carefully there are Shapeways shops indicating that the same products may be sourced more cheaply if you contact them directly.  I'm trying one of these my self and  i'm hopeful the result will be equally good at a significant fraction of the price.  NB I wont point the vendors out in case Shapeways get upset but my advice is always read the shopkeepers blurb before buying.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Doc Pye on January 29, 2019, 09:26:09 PM
Well I am looking at some Shapeways designs by someone named 'Steam Pint', as I am thinking of building a GWR Saint...see thread below.

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=44267.new;topicseen#new (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=44267.new;topicseen#new)

Hence, if there is another way to source this directly then please do let me know.

 :thankyousign:
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 29, 2019, 09:31:46 PM
Well I am looking at some Shapeways designs by someone named 'Steam Pint', as I am thinking of building a GWR Saint...see thread below.

https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=44267.new;topicseen#new (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?topic=44267.new;topicseen#new)

Hence, if there is another way to source this directly then please do let me know.

 :thankyousign:

Steam Print's models are very good so buy with confidence but as far as I know he does not offer his designs through other sources.

What i was alluding to was designers listing their designs on several platforms each having their own pricing strategy, and others sourcing the prints themselves and selling direct.  What I don't know off hand is whether Shapeways tries to limit this cross platform listing.  If they don't then I suspect they will in the future.

Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Doc Pye on January 29, 2019, 09:34:33 PM
Thanks for that info...sorry I got the name wrong, as I must have been thinking of 'pints' instead of 'prints!' :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

I figure if Steam Print made these models - and they do look good - then someone has actually tackled the project. So rather than reinvent the wheel, I am hoping to learn from those that were first, second, and third through the door!  ;D
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Dr Al on January 30, 2019, 12:28:24 AM
Shapeways servers appear to have collapsed under the load - clearly a lot of folk are buying now to beat the hike.

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: njee20 on January 30, 2019, 03:24:14 PM
My order (admittedly only for 3 things) has been dispatched less than 48 hours after ordering, that's definitely a new record.

I give Shapeways a year.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 30, 2019, 04:55:18 PM
It looks like small items are being fitted into fast batches when they have space.  Bigger stuff I have on order is 25 days out and I won't pay the accelerated manufacturing charge.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: njee20 on January 30, 2019, 05:02:01 PM
Delivery scheduled for tomorrow apparently.

Yeah all my bits were small, a class 90 bodyshell the biggest. Even so, I never order big things and usually wait far longer than that. May just be they've optimised their 'batching', but I'll wager it's more to do with a lack of orders!

Still, I'm not complaining!
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Newportnobby on January 30, 2019, 09:13:56 PM
My order (admittedly only for 3 things) has been dispatched less than 48 hours after ordering, that's definitely a new record.

I give Shapeways a year.

A year!?! ??? I'd be very disappointed if stuff took a month to arrive :-X
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Only Me on January 30, 2019, 09:23:20 PM
Ive bought a resin printer so all my shapeways stuff will now be made in the uk along with my new Limpet and Tope wagon bodies...
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: RailGooner on January 30, 2019, 09:27:12 PM
11 items ordered very late on the 29th. 10 are in production, with one still processing. The large volume of the order will garner greater priority if I understand their processes correctly.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 30, 2019, 11:34:04 PM
Just sent by email from shapeways


Quote
Dear Shop Owner,

After reviewing some members' pricing comparison csv reports, we have determined that we have a flaw with how our new algorithm is calculating the price of certain types of models using Fine Detail Plastic (FUD).

We will be extending grandfathered pricing for all existing products using Fine Detail Plastic (FUD) until we fix this issue. We expect this to take a few weeks.

Once we determine it is fixed, we will provide an additional week for impacted members to download their new pricing comparison csv files before rolling out the changes and removing grandfathered pricing for this material.

All other materials will change over on Feb 4th, as previously announced.

Thanks very much to everyone who contributed their csv file reports to us enabling us to pinpoint and address the issue.

Sincerely,
Shapeways

Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Doc Pye on January 30, 2019, 11:37:27 PM
So does that mean only items already on Shapeways will not be affected; with new items subject to price changes on 4 Feb 2019??? :confusedsign:
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 30, 2019, 11:40:42 PM
The question is what is the situation for newly listed items which have the new pricing already?

I think the FUD has hid the fan. :D
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 30, 2019, 11:48:10 PM
I have just sent them a question about the pricing of new models loaded that have been priced with the new algorithm.  If its wrong anyone who has bought them should be due a refund of the difference.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Dr Al on January 31, 2019, 12:40:01 AM
...some frantic back-pedalling there....

Cheers,
Alan
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: NTrain on January 31, 2019, 02:52:00 AM
They asked me to send them a highlighted list of anything of mine that was increasing more tan 20%. I have now sent that list.

Looking back, it looks like I should have done it earlier, but had been very confused by all the talk about grandfathered pricing...............
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: njee20 on January 31, 2019, 09:46:42 AM
That's very interesting. I've seen people talking about 300%+ price rises, presumably the inference is that these are incorrect.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: emjaybee on January 31, 2019, 10:19:19 AM
The suspicious side of my brain half wonders if this was some sort of marketing exercise.

Without this threatening price rise neither myself or (possibly) NewportNobby would have placed an order.


 :hmmm:
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: njee20 on January 31, 2019, 10:21:45 AM
Oooo, you cynic, you!
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 31, 2019, 10:22:13 AM
Well so far I have had silence on my question to Shapeways about the pricing for new models that if overpriced are going to need to be refunded.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: njee20 on January 31, 2019, 10:24:01 AM
You sent the email after midnight last night, it's not even midday yet, give them a chance!
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 31, 2019, 10:26:25 AM
You sent the email after midnight last night, it's not even midday yet, give them a chance!

They do quote an 8 hour response time and they operate 24/7.  I guess they have just realised and are faffing around for an answer.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: emjaybee on January 31, 2019, 10:35:49 AM
Oooo, you cynic, you!

Yup, that's me!
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: red_death on January 31, 2019, 11:51:35 AM
My understanding is that the grandfathering price rights only apply to items already previously uploaded to SW to an existing account before the cut off date (which I can't remember what it was - end of August 2018 by the look of it).

So any accounts added after 27 August 2018 will already have been using the new pricing model.

Out of interest I just ran the price comparison tool on my very few items and it shows the necessity of sprueing multiple items (pretty much everything I have on sale is multiple items and increased between 50 and 300% largely due to the new per part minimums by the look of it).
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 31, 2019, 11:57:03 AM
I have to assume the revaluing algorithm is the one also used for all newly listed items and itís this they say is wrong.  Grandfathering does not come into it.

QED newly listed items using the algorithm are priced wrong.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: m0rris on January 31, 2019, 12:40:15 PM
I have to assume the revaluing algorithm is the one also used for all newly listed items and itís this they say is wrong.  Grandfathering does not come into it.

QED newly listed items using the algorithm are priced wrong.

I assume so too - I wonder what their definition of "wrong" actually is. I've a sneaky suspicion it extends to "dj@£!@!!@;!, sales of non grandfathered models are dreadful, are we sure our prices are actually competitive?". The algorithm doesn't make all that much sense from day 1 so i can't say I'm too surprised that reality has caught up and at least postponed the project.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: njee20 on January 31, 2019, 12:43:52 PM
I have to assume the revaluing algorithm is the one also used for all newly listed items and itís this they say is wrong.  Grandfathering does not come into it.

QED newly listed items using the algorithm are priced wrong.

Yes, that's how I read it. Ie they're saying those items that are due to increase next week won't, but by extension those that are already one there are overpriced and should be reassessed.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: NTrain on January 31, 2019, 01:00:30 PM
To quote my email "It would probably have been easier to highlight the items which were less than 20%!!"

They asked shop owners to highlight anything greater than 20%. In my case I noted that anything that was coloured WSF had a massive increase in cost, so I stopped offering it as an alternative. That left me with nothing more than 200% increase.

I am in a difficult position at the moment, as I tied using resin 3D printing and proved to have a massive allergic reaction to the resins. Don't mention gloves etc, because i was................

Health and finances also play a major part in what I am able to do, so I am trying to work out my best alternatives.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: njee20 on January 31, 2019, 01:17:25 PM
It seems to suggest it's only FUD that's a problem, so presumably coloured-SF was meant to triple in price... seems at odds with suggesting the increases in FUD were out of anticipated boundaries.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 31, 2019, 07:03:22 PM
Ok, I did a bit of digging about the best soon to be available resin SLA printers and I believe this will be a good buy.  they are currently taking pre-orders and I trust them as my first SLA printer came from them and was bought the same way (but through a Kickstarter).

https://www.phrozen3dp.com/products/phrozen-shuffle-xl (https://www.phrozen3dp.com/products/phrozen-shuffle-xl)

the important thing is the optics and mechanical stability which allows it to print a footprint of up to 190mm by 120mm, almost A5 and big enough to print a Class 66 or Mk3 flat and square to the build space, i.e. no need to tilt or slant.  the price tag is c£1,000 with resin at 0.5kg at ~£25.  However they do not restrict you to their resin and encourage other resin manufacturers to certify to their spec.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Only Me on January 31, 2019, 08:09:46 PM
@Snowwolflair (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3761)  i have invested in an anycubic photon, the bed isnt massive but its results are excellent!
Need a chqmber though if in the house/train room as the fumes are strong!
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/73/1328-310119201623.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=73748)
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 31, 2019, 08:16:01 PM
@Snowwolflair (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=3761)  i have invested in an anycubic photon, the bed isnt massive but its results are excellent!

Yes I have some prints from a Shapeways shop owner who also provides his models from his own anycubic photon arriving tomorrow and I will be interested in how they turn out.

the  anycubic photon is state of the art today.  The progress this year will be in build plate size which is not as easy as just scaling up as the angular stresses increase distorting the print.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: carlmt on January 31, 2019, 10:55:08 PM
I have just placed my last order with Shapeways, although it is model boat related and not train.

Our little company has been using Shapeways for the past three years to produce all the 3D printed parts and fittings for our model boat kits and we have spent close on £10k with them in that time.  No longer though.  We took the decision in the autumn to invest in our own 3D printing set up to service our kit production, our parts and fittings production and to offer a bureau service printing 3D items for third parties.

For our purposes FUD was too brittle and fragile so all our parts are designed for nylon plastic.  This dictated an SLS machine so we have plumped for the Sinterit Lisa to get us going, with a £300 PLA machine for prototype part testing.  The cost of our setup?  Just over £10k - but we cannot keep lining Shapeways pockets anymore........it is eating into our margins!!!

Will post more when it arrives in a couple of weeks  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Carl
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Only Me on January 31, 2019, 10:58:50 PM
(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/73/1328-310119225707.jpeg)

Thats from my new resin printer a Tooe wagon... if interested in a few drop me a pm


Btw photo above was the first print... so some fettling to do
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: carlmt on January 31, 2019, 11:02:28 PM
Would that be just the upper body you printed or the chassis too?

Not looking for one myself, just interested.  Looks like a decent print for a first time out of the tank.

Carl
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Only Me on January 31, 2019, 11:03:45 PM
Would that be just the upper body you printed or the chassis too?

Not looking for one myself, just interested.  Looks like a decent print for a first time out of the tank.

Carl

Just the green body fella
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 31, 2019, 11:06:01 PM
Looks good, what chassis are you using?
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Only Me on January 31, 2019, 11:06:47 PM
Looks good, what chassis are you using?

Dapol 21t its freely available from hattons for four quid
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: emjaybee on January 31, 2019, 11:12:56 PM
Wowsers!

That's some next level stuff there bloke.

Mightily impressive. Out of curiosity, what do you reckon the cost of that print is, excluding the cost of the printer obviously?

 :D
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Only Me on January 31, 2019, 11:17:14 PM
Wowsers!

That's some next level stuff there bloke.

Mightily impressive. Out of curiosity, what do you reckon the cost of that print is, excluding the cost of the printer obviously?

 :D

Six quid to you..
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on January 31, 2019, 11:21:36 PM
Can you let me have a Shapeways link for the chassis.

Thanks
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Only Me on January 31, 2019, 11:30:58 PM
Can you let me have a Shapeways link for the chassis.

Thanks

Its not a shapeways chassis its a dapol 21t £4 from hattons
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on February 01, 2019, 12:04:58 AM
Can you let me have a Shapeways link for the chassis.

Thanks

Its not a shapeways chassis its a dapol 21t £4 from hattons

Sorry trying to read this on an iPhone, thanks
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: emjaybee on February 01, 2019, 12:35:46 AM
Wowsers!

That's some next level stuff there bloke.

Mightily impressive. Out of curiosity, what do you reckon the cost of that print is, excluding the cost of the printer obviously?

 :D

Six quid to you..

That's not bad at all really. Granted it's not my kinda wagon (don't recall the LMS using them), but that's not half bad. I can see you wearing the thing out in about six months.

 ;D
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Newportnobby on February 01, 2019, 10:19:02 AM
With all the shenanigans going on can some in the cognoscenti inform this dunce whether the price I paid for my diesel brake tender body last week beat the increase or had the price already been increased before I ordered it? :dunce:
 :thankyousign:
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: woodbury22uk on February 01, 2019, 11:35:53 AM
Price increase applies from Monday 4 February 2019 so you got yours at the grandfathered price if it was online before the price increase was announced back in October 2018. I think you got a good price by comparison with whatever comes next.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Newportnobby on February 01, 2019, 12:20:50 PM
I haven't got a scooby doo what a 'grandfathered price' is, and placed the order on 29th January 2019 at £8.83 + £5.53 shipping and £2.88 duty.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: njee20 on February 01, 2019, 12:47:08 PM
Grandfather rights - when something changes, but anything pre-existing before the change aren't carried over. People who had a driving licence before a certain time could drive lorries on their existing licence, the change wasn't retroactive.

In this context - grandfathered pricing means those items that were put onto Shapeways before October 2018 are immune from the price rises that were due to take effect next week while they work out what the correct pricing should be. There's a separate question about those items which were uploaded onto Shapeways after October 2018, which were subjected to the new pricing immediately, and are therefore (by Shapeways own admission) now priced wrongly.

Your diesel brake tender sounds like it's probably an older model, as that pricing sounds about right, by all accounts the 'new' pricing is far higher.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on February 01, 2019, 12:54:29 PM
Shapeways are either not talking to me now or they have realised and finally grasped the problem and have gone silent until they have an answer.

My last message to them sums up the problem.

The algorithm fault is in the way it calculates the z-axis and I therefore assume material volume.

Can I encourage anyone else inclined to do so to ask them the same question.

Quote
This does not make sense.

If itís a z-axis fault why does it affect old designs and not new ones.   Pricing for both old and new start with the same dimensioning data and are being priced by the same algorithm.

Does the algorithm have a date element in its calculation otherwise the algorithm is ignorant to the origin date of the model and will calculate a price based on the same data sets and algorithm.

You have acknowledged the algorithm has a fault (z-axis fault) and it will have had a z-axis problem when itís been calculating new designs since it was implemented.

If you cannot grasp this pass me on to someone who can grasp this concept.  You have a problem with pricing.

I'm an engineer with a manufacturing background, I suspect you are not and therefore cannot grasp the problem.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: njee20 on February 01, 2019, 12:57:50 PM
You charmer, you!
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on February 01, 2019, 01:01:06 PM
You charmer, you!

If I had written what i was actually thinking I would have called him a F*** idiot.  :D

Typical brain dead customer services, employed to deflect everything.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on February 01, 2019, 06:13:53 PM
I have had a serious reply from Shapeways explaining their problem.

They are having trouble getting compatibility with their Floggle-Toggle-Box.   :goggleeyes:

I refer you to my previous post...................................... :D
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Buzzard on February 05, 2019, 09:44:07 AM
Since we're now past the price increase date I've looked at a few items and without exception they've all gone down a little bit, which I guess is due to exchange rate fluctuations.

So no general increase yet.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on February 05, 2019, 09:47:58 AM
This was posted on the shapeways internal forum last night

Quote
Hi everyone, we have just finished concluded testing of the new code on our servers and are currently ready to begin deploying. Because it's end of the work day here and we don't want to risk any bugs overnight, we are going to flip the switch that will actually turn on the prices tomorrow morning at 9:30am EST. Thanks for your patience.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on February 05, 2019, 06:20:41 PM
I finally got an answer from Shapeways.  Not ideal but at least they are acknowledging they have been s*****g us over with some of the new pricing but wont refund.

Quote
No. This is not an error in the sense you are inquiring about. This is us tweaking our formula to improve it moving forwards.

Shapeways reserves the right to adjust it's formula and will always look to best serve the needs of our customers, our partners and our business by adjusting them from time to time. When that happens it will only impact future sales, not past sales
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Doc Pye on February 05, 2019, 06:30:19 PM
In other words, they can do whatever they like with things and don't give a crap about correcting any errors...in fact, they don't make errors....sounds familiar...   :hmmm:
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on February 05, 2019, 06:33:33 PM
In other words, they can do whatever they like with things and don't give a crap about correcting any errors...in fact, they don't make errors....sounds familiar...   :hmmm:

It's taken a week to get them to acknowledge the problem.  Lets see what the algorithm change brings in new prices.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Doc Pye on February 05, 2019, 06:35:04 PM
Prices will go up...that's for sure. Getting to the point of getting my own 3D printer...
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on February 05, 2019, 06:48:16 PM
I have two, a big scale extruder that is no use for modelling in N except for rough structures for buildings etc. and an MSLA which is perfect for small items with a great level of detail but only a 25mm by 50mm max build plate.

My next printer will be an MSLA with a print area of roughly A5 which will allow a Mk3 coach or a class 66 to be printed.  These printers will begin to become available later this year.  Its going to be worth the wait.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: RailGooner on February 13, 2019, 12:20:11 PM
 :hmmm: I'm not sure that the affect of the price hike warrantied the frenzied buying that it prompted - for me anyway. My order of Jan 29 came to a total of Ä156.72 (inc. VAT and P&P). Today that same order comes to a total of Ä179.93 (inc. VAT and P&P).

I'm not saying £20 is nothing, but I'd be getting a lot less grief from MBH if I'd spread that order out over the coming months and the £20 hike wouldn't have registered as much that way. :'(
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on February 24, 2019, 11:32:02 AM
It has all gone very quiet on the repricing of FUD.  Historic models are still priced at the old price and the new ones at the new price.

I wonder if the howls of anguish from the user community has had an effect and they have backed off.  I guess they can leave the situation as it stands which helps old designs as long as you don't "revise" your design.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Doc Pye on February 24, 2019, 11:34:40 AM
I think it is more a case that they haven't gotten around to do the old ones yet...it will come...greed always leads!
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: NTrain on February 24, 2019, 11:51:23 AM
From my point of view, it is not just the price rise for the material, there is also the three tier delivery charge system.

Pay through the nose to get it extra quick.
Pay and arm and a leg to get it fairly quick.
Or pay like we used to pay and take pot luck.

The funny thing being, that most of my recent orders have arrived very quickly indeed and I refuse to pay the extra. If I have to wait, I have to wait.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Bob G on February 24, 2019, 12:40:21 PM
Folks - I have decided to sell my Shapeways Ferry Vans and Wagon kits on EBay as they are stunning kits and to 1:148 but I have way too much in my gloat box to ever get around to these.
They are to British N scale 1:148 rather than 1:160 so that's even better news.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254138221968?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254138221968?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649)

If you are interested, they are there for all to see. With a decent cost saving on new :)


(https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/gallery/74/1517-240219123738.jpeg) (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=74380)
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: m0rris on February 24, 2019, 01:34:18 PM
It has all gone very quiet on the repricing of FUD.  Historic models are still priced at the old price and the new ones at the new price.

I wonder if the howls of anguish from the user community has had an effect and they have backed off.  I guess they can leave the situation as it stands which helps old designs as long as you don't "revise" your design.

I suspect they've totally knackered their algorithms and don't know how to put it all back on a sensible footing. Some of the issues that they raised that they had missed seemed to be really basic like not recognising both height and length effectively. Avim has hinted at some of the wider issues, individuals leaving during the middle of the switchover, even Avim came in to deliver this after the process had started...
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: thebrighton on February 24, 2019, 06:45:21 PM
It seems all this uncertainty about pricing is causing a lull in orders. An item I wanted hadn't increased so I ordered it on Thursday with the cheapo delivery option with expected shipping date the 18 March. It was dispatched today :)
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Mr Sprue on February 24, 2019, 07:58:40 PM
The way I see things they run the danger of out pricing themselves, after all lets be honest the prints available are really 'scratch aids'.

What is really deceiving are their 'Digital Preview' pictures which are not actual photo's but display perfectly smooth prints, in fact in the flesh they are not, and even printed in the best resolution available they resemble a master that was originally built in concrete and scaled down!

But really does annoy me is that they now possess a large catalogue for the customer, which has been compiled from those who have given up their valuable time and I suspect the odd late night to design and upload their files,  only to receive a pittance in royalties every time Shapeways sell a print using one of their files!

If what I have posted is not fact then please correct me as I have been otherwise misinformed!



Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on February 24, 2019, 08:11:17 PM
The way I see things they run the danger of out pricing themselves, after all lets be honest the prints available are really 'scratch aids'.

What is really deceiving are their 'Digital Preview' pictures which are not actual photo's but display perfectly smooth prints, in fact in the flesh they are not, and even printed in the best resolution available they resemble a master that was originally built in concrete and scaled down!

But really does annoy me is that they now possess a large catalogue for the customer, which has been compiled from those who have given up their valuable time and I suspect the odd late night to design and upload their files,  only to receive a pittance in royalties every time Shapeways sell a print using one of their files!

If what I have posted is not fact then please correct me as I have been otherwise misinformed!

And if a competent rival came into existence these designs can all be migrated to a new provider overnight.  Fortunately they don't try to own the designs (yet).
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Mr Sprue on February 24, 2019, 09:15:45 PM
And if a competent rival came into existence these designs can all be migrated to a new provider overnight.  Fortunately they don't try to own the designs (yet).


I don't think they would be able to own the files without permission would they?
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on February 24, 2019, 09:18:32 PM
And if a competent rival came into existence these designs can all be migrated to a new provider overnight.  Fortunately they don't try to own the designs (yet).


I don't think they would be able to own the files without permission would they?

Not as it stands but they could try and slip a change of commercial conditions in without it being realised.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Mr Sprue on February 24, 2019, 09:27:35 PM
And if a competent rival came into existence these designs can all be migrated to a new provider overnight.  Fortunately they don't try to own the designs (yet).


I don't think they would be able to own the files without permission would they?

Not as it stands but they could try and slip a change of commercial conditions in without it being realised.

But then surely they would have to notify people! However copyright laws in the world of models are frail as the only master is the real one!
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on February 24, 2019, 09:39:12 PM
And if a competent rival came into existence these designs can all be migrated to a new provider overnight.  Fortunately they don't try to own the designs (yet).


I don't think they would be able to own the files without permission would they?

Not as it stands but they could try and slip a change of commercial conditions in without it being realised.

But then surely they would have to notify people! However copyright laws in the world of models are frail as the only master is the real one!

They would do it like this, amongst lots of copperplate verbose to hide it.

"If you don't want us to have sole rights to manufacture this item then please remove it from our site in the next seven days."
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Mr Sprue on February 24, 2019, 09:46:46 PM

They would do it like this, amongst lots of copperplate verbose to hide it.

"If you don't want us to have sole rights to manufacture this item then please remove it from our site in the next seven days."

If that is the case then I know what I would do take my file down and to :P with them!
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on February 24, 2019, 09:48:05 PM

They would do it like this, amongst lots of copperplate verbose to hide it.

"If you don't want us to have sole rights to manufacture this item then please remove it from our site in the next seven days."

If that is the case then I know what I would do take my file down and to :P with them!

If you see it and are quick enough.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: njee20 on February 25, 2019, 02:09:54 PM
That's a vast amount of speculation, and I'm not sure something like that would stand up anyway.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on February 25, 2019, 10:09:44 PM
That's a vast amount of speculation, and I'm not sure something like that would stand up anyway.

As long as they communicate it to the registered email address of the shop holder its perfectly valid.

Same way if somebody parks on your land you can attach a notice saying that if it is not removed in seven days it will be accepted as a gift to the owner of the land.  The exception to this if it is left on your land as the result of a criminal act.  Clamping on private land follows the same legal principle.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: njee20 on February 25, 2019, 10:19:03 PM
You canít clamp on private land any more, its an offence...

Itís not as straightforward as youíre making out or believe, and thereís no precedent, so it would likely be challenged. Youíre implying they can say ďyouíve got 20 minutes or itís all oursĒ and itíd be fine, as theyíd told people.

Itís totally pointless conjecture though, youíre just scaremongering.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on February 25, 2019, 10:36:20 PM
You canít clamp on private land any more, its an offence...

Itís not as straightforward as youíre making out or believe, and thereís no precedent, so it would likely be challenged. Youíre implying they can say ďyouíve got 20 minutes or itís all oursĒ and itíd be fine, as theyíd told people.

Itís totally pointless conjecture though, youíre just scaremongering.

I never scaremonger about the law.

You are correct about the clamping, but a legal judgement and I believe a Home Office legal guidance was required to change the law for this exception as the prior default was understood that clamping on private land was legal. 

The principle of "failure of action in full knowledge of the consequences which can result in loss" is still a valid legal principle except where exceptions have been argued and agreed in court.  The best known expression of this is caveat emptor which has spawned lawbooks of new laws and judgements to create exceptions to the principle.

As a barrister friend likes to say, "the law is grey not black and white, as if it was black and white I would not make any fees".

The law is not moral or ethical it is literally a law unto itself, and if its badly drafted or ambiguous can be dangerous.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: njee20 on February 26, 2019, 07:53:42 AM
So you agree the example you used was completely wrong, but youíre not scaremongering? Have Shapeways ever indicated theyíll take ownership of all their hosted content? Has any other site done that? Sounds like scaremongering to me.

Even if itís not scaremongering itís certainly pointless conjecture, you have no facts. Iím out.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on April 23, 2019, 03:00:02 PM
STOP PRESS

I have just had a new price comparison for FUD after April 29th.

In summary small up's and Big downs
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: m0rris on April 23, 2019, 03:39:56 PM
Same for mine, there's a couple of big ups but they are for niche rescaled items that were only done on request and smaller items such as cars. By and large, everything slightly down with only a couple of exceptions which is pleasing!
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on April 23, 2019, 03:42:38 PM
Same for mine, there's a couple of big ups but they are for niche rescaled items that were only done on request and smaller items such as cars. By and large, everything slightly down with only a couple of exceptions which is pleasing!

It will be interesting to see what @Atso (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=213), n-train and other producers find.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Bob G on April 23, 2019, 03:44:34 PM
So the time to order some Mk 1 Transits for my carflats is not until next month, I hope.
I've given up on Oxford Diecast, and at least the printed ones will be lighter.

Bob
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Stevie DC on April 23, 2019, 06:28:51 PM
It will be interesting to see what @Atso (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=213), n-train and other producers find.

Honestly, this whole episode with Shapeways has left a bad taste in my mouth. While the new prices appear to be better (in General) than what was being offered a couple of months ago, I'm really not happy about the way they handled it and having to tell forum members prices were going up by so much at the time. Therefore, I'm sticking with my original position that I'm not developing my Shapeways range any further as I've lost confidence in their company.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on April 23, 2019, 06:43:13 PM
I'm going down the path of printing on my own machine, but that won't stop me listing them on Shapeways to reach people beyond the reach of the NGF. 

I will however point to my NGF build threads where I will mention the parts can be obtained directly from myself  (Thank you @Tank (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2)). :thumbsup:
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: NTrain on April 24, 2019, 12:36:36 AM
Shapeways have not done themselves any favours with all of this.

I have been putting a database together for discussions with someone else and the Shaeways prices have made it almost impossible to cope with. It almost seems that the prices are changing every time I look, and it is not by a few pennies at a time,

I just hope this latest e-mail from them will see a settling down. Yes, a lot of the prices have gone down this time, but they had gone up a lot before.

Now I have got to go through my list of items and check  all my prices yet again.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Bob Tidbury on April 24, 2019, 10:35:57 AM
I looked on the Shapeways  page on Sunday and found G W R Railcar number 18 priced at £30-25  just asked my son if he would buy it in advance of Fatherís Day we found it and the price has now gone up to £61-75 so thatís put paid to that idea ,  that is just extortion going up that much in less than a week .
SNOWWOLFLAIR  I think your 3D printer is going to work overtime and you will be going into the 3D printing business.
Bob Tidbury
Thanks to those that have pointed out my senior moment the £61-75 is for the O gauge one the N gauge one is still only £30-25
Bob Tidbury
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: woodbury22uk on April 24, 2019, 10:39:55 AM
I looked on the Shapeways  page on Sunday and found G W R Railcar number 18 priced at £30-25  just asked my son if he would buy it in advance of Fatherís Day we found it and the price has now gone up to £61-75 so thatís put paid to that idea ,  that is just extortion going up that much in less than a week .
SNOWWOLFLAIR  I think your 3D printer is going to work overtime and you will be going into the 3D printing business.
Bob Tidbury


Bob

I think you are looking at the 1/87 scale version. The N one is still £30.25.

https://www.shapeways.com/product/787TPPHSW/o-148fs-gwr-railcar-no18?optionId=66712579&li=marketplace (https://www.shapeways.com/product/787TPPHSW/o-148fs-gwr-railcar-no18?optionId=66712579&li=marketplace)
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: acko22 on April 24, 2019, 01:26:31 PM
Hi All,

I am going to avoid the whats, when, where, whys side of things purely because its shapeways choice to up the costs and really not to much I personally can do about it!

But I have purchased and Anycubic resin printer so I can run off what I want as there are numerous things I want some of which aren't currently available at all. My thought been and I have already approached one guys off shapeways to ask "Would you be willing to sell me the design so I can print it off at home for personal use?".

This may be a way to get round things for some people as has been stated some of you design and some of us have printers (which is no doubt one of the issues shapeways is facing). Potentially @Tank (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2) it may be an idea on the 3D printing section to have a sub section for those who are willing to sell the designs for personal use or to offer their printing facilities for use.

Just a thought as there seems a good few of us on here that have the ability to design (not me) or have a printer that maybe could assist in getting them items that cant be found made up for them.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on April 24, 2019, 01:35:13 PM
Hi All,

I am going to avoid the whats, when, where, whys side of things purely because its shapeways choice to up the costs and really not to much I personally can do about it!

But I have purchased and Anycubic resin printer so I can run off what I want as there are numerous things I want some of which aren't currently available at all. My thought been and I have already approached one guys off shapeways to ask "Would you be willing to sell me the design so I can print it off at home for personal use?".

This may be a way to get round things for some people as has been stated some of you design and some of us have printers (which is no doubt one of the issues shapeways is facing). Potentially @Tank (https://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=profile;u=2) it may be an idea on the 3D printing section to have a sub section for those who are willing to sell the designs for personal use or to offer their printing facilities for use.

Just a thought as there seems a good few of us on here that have the ability to design (not me) or have a printer that maybe could assist in getting them items that cant be found made up for them.

Very good idea. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Bob Tidbury on April 24, 2019, 02:49:29 PM
Yes Thank you for pointing out my senior moment all sorted now .
I will modify  the original post to avoid any problems .
Bob Tidbury
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Mr Sprue on April 24, 2019, 07:46:49 PM
For what its worth I've always considered Chris Ward's 3D printing was far better quality than Shapeways.

Haven't spoken to him for a while, the last time I did he was retiring and selling his business. However it now transpires that Chris has sold to Tim @ Chase 3D Ltd.

So on behalf of NGF I took the liberty of contacting Tim and this is the reply I got back:


Good morning Dave,

Many thanks for your e-mail; it's good to hear from you.

Thanks too for offering to give the business a mention on the N-gauge forum.
That would be very welcome, although N-gauge is possibly one of my
less-supported sectors up to now.

Customers who can produce their own STLs are ideal for me right now as I
don't have time to do any design work myself and it is difficult to find
anyone who will undertake such work both at an affordable price and to a
consistent standard. Sadly, Tony Massey, who has done a lot of design work
for my customers over the past three years, passed away early this year and
that has been a tremendous loss.

Pricing is indeed a tricky matter. I still use a modified version of Chris's
pricing based on three bands of material volume and applying reducing levels
of markups in proportion to the amount of material used and the printing
time. While this works well for some items, it sometimes comes in a bit high
(and from my point of view, sometimes too low!) so it is I think near
impossible to come up with a one size that fits all solution. At the same
time, customer expectations differ widely, so on the same day I can have
customers say that a quote is very reasonable (when I thought it a bit
high), or react as if I was caught picking their pocket when I have actually
given them a very low figure. In some cases I never hear again from a
previously loyal customer after sending out what was a perfectly fair quote.
I do now have three years of production data automatically logged on the
printer, so if I get a quiet time I can perhaps do some analysis and work
out an alternative pricing approach. Whatever I do, I am sure it will never
please everyone!

Given its size, N-gauge at least should be one of the less controversial
scales from a pricing point of view.

I get the impression that a lot of us with small businesses in this field
can be working in isolation, even when we are part of a larger production
chain, so it is always useful to make contact with other manufacturers and
find out how our services can complement each other.

Kind regards,

Tim Evans

Chase 3D Ltd.
Unit 1.15 Cannock Chase Enterprise Centre,
Walkers Rise, Rugeley Road, Hednesford, Staffs., WS12 0QU.
E-mail: chase3d.ltd@virginmedia.com
Tel: 07806 818465

Hope that this can be of any help to members here who do not wish to purchase a 3D printer!
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: thebrighton on May 17, 2020, 04:40:49 PM
A couple of weeks ago I ordered a print from Shapeways and their basic shipping was £5.63 which has been consistent for a while now. I just went to place a new order and their basic shipping is now £9.64.... When the shipping is nearly as much as the cost of the print I'll either have to start looking elsewhere or just wait until there's enough of interest to put in a bigger order to make the postage more palatable.
I'll have a route around by 'to build' pile for something else.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on May 17, 2020, 04:45:15 PM
Its something to do with restricted shipping services during Covid 19 and DHL withdrawing their economy shipping option to contract customers.  Hopefully it wont be permanent.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: thebrighton on June 29, 2020, 10:12:39 AM
I wonder how long Shapeways can keep going as they are becoming more and more expensive for both print and postage whilst the tech and consequently quality is falling way behind what you can print at home.
Historically I've had to wait a while for orders to arrive but have been happy to pay for the cheapest, slowest postal option so on Saturday at 9.05pm I placed an order for 3 items (only because the designers have no plans to make them available elsewhere) with the cheap post option and at 9.44am today was advised they had been dispatched!
Although cracking service it says to me that if they can turn around an order in a fraction over 48 hours when the advised dispatch day would be 15th July they are struggling for business.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: woodbury22uk on June 29, 2020, 01:09:26 PM
I am inclined to agree that they clearly do not have much work on, and that their pricing for printing and shipping makes them mostly unattractive. I have made most of my Shapeways shop files available for free download (from the Shapeways site)  so people can print or modify them at home. Grouping items to order helps offset the shipping cost but the base pricing is such that printing almost any of the coaches in my shop would be far, far cheaper on a home resin machine, and the savings would soon pay for the cost of the machine.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 29, 2020, 01:15:07 PM
I wonder how long Shapeways can keep going as they are becoming more and more expensive for both print and postage whilst the tech and consequently quality is falling way behind what you can print at home.
Historically I've had to wait a while for orders to arrive but have been happy to pay for the cheapest, slowest postal option so on Saturday at 9.05pm I placed an order for 3 items (only because the designers have no plans to make them available elsewhere) with the cheap post option and at 9.44am today was advised they had been dispatched!
Although cracking service it says to me that if they can turn around an order in a fraction over 48 hours when the advised dispatch day would be 15th July they are struggling for business.

what material?  and what size?  My guess is you got lucky and the parts fitted in a hole in a bigger print batch.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: thebrighton on June 29, 2020, 01:32:50 PM
what material?  and what size?  My guess is you got lucky and the parts fitted in a hole in a bigger print batch.
Smoothest fine detail, coach, loco and wagon. Don't think it was luck, an order last month only took a couple of days longer. Following the prints status after ordering they moved to production within 12 hours.
Technology has left them behind.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 29, 2020, 01:53:51 PM
I understand your gripe, but in the absence of an alternative market place for designers to sell their designs (as no one has viewed it as profitable to compete yet) what is the alternative. 

I am selling between 2-4 models a week through the Shapeways shop and whilst I wont get rich the markup I make pays for the prototyping cost of my new models.  Particularly as my buyers are worldwide, even with my own ability to print I would not be able to satisfy their need even if they knew about my designs in the first place.  The Shapeways shop is irreplaceable at the moment.

As far as prototyping I print on my own printer.

Remember there is a price for the designer and a price for the customer which has a markup earned by the designer.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: thebrighton on June 29, 2020, 02:08:29 PM
I understand your gripe, but in the absence of an alternative market place for designers to sell their designs (as no one has viewed it as profitable to compete yet) what is the alternative. 

I am selling between 2-4 models a week through the Shapeways shop and whilst I wont get rich the markup I make pays for the prototyping cost of my new models.  Particularly as my buyers are worldwide, even with my own ability to print I would not be able to satisfy their need even if they knew about my designs in the first place.  The Shapeways shop is irreplaceable at the moment.

As far as prototyping I print on my own printer.

Remember there is a price for the designer and a price for the customer which has a markup earned by the designer.
I'm not disagreeing with you on any of your points other than Shapeways have been left behind when it comes to tech.
I have received numerous prints from peoples home printers using the latest resins with very little if any layering, the quality is simply stunning but the best you can get from Shapeways is their smoothest fine detail plastic which still requires hours of sanding etc to lose the print lines whilst remaining very brittle.
I know there is currently very little alternative which is the issue. If Shapeways want to remain at the forefront of 3D printing they need to move to these new printing techniques. IMHO they are resting on their laurels being the only worldwide option so aren't bothering to move with the times.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Snowwolflair on June 29, 2020, 02:24:24 PM
Yes but home printers giving this type of output are almost always UV resin types (like the one I have) and the support structure needs to be removed and the damaged face where it was attached fixed.

From this point of view it is alternative technology not better.

However there are better technologies and if you pay 50 times more you can already get prints that take 50 times longer to print have 50 times the number of layers and are as smooth as a babies b**m.  They metal sinter gas turbine blades this way.  Its all to do with you get what you pay for.

Also if you have an employee of Shapeways manage your print you have to pay for it, a cost which a print from another modeller does not include, nor an amortising of the cost of their machine.

i.e. my machine cost me £1400, I have run about 250 print runs so far so every print I have done has cost me £5.60 before I count the cost of the resin and electricity, and I have certainly not factored in my time.

Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: Jim Easterbrook on June 29, 2020, 02:31:43 PM
As a consumer who is unlikely ever to want more than half a dozen printed items in a year it would make no sense to buy my own printer and learn how to use it. I would like to buy better quality prints than Shapeways supply and of course would like to pay less. The fact there isn't a rival service (that I'm aware of) suggests to me that Shapeways aren't milking the market that much.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: thebrighton on June 29, 2020, 02:55:16 PM
Yes but home printers giving this type of output are almost always UV resin types (like the one I have) and the support structure needs to be removed and the damaged face where it was attached fixed.

From this point of view it is alternative technology not better.

However there are better technologies and if you pay 50 times more you can already get prints that take 50 times longer to print have 50 times the number of layers and are as smooth as a babies b**m.  They metal sinter gas turbine blades this way.  Its all to do with you get what you pay for.

Also if you have an employee of Shapeways manage your print you have to pay for it, a cost which a print from another modeller does not include, nor an amortising of the cost of their machine.

i.e. my machine cost me £1400, I have run about 250 print runs so far so every print I have done has cost me £5.60 before I count the cost of the resin and electricity, and I have certainly not factored in my time.

You are still missing my point. Yep you have to remove the supports from UV resin types but I've no issues doing that and the damaged face where they are fixed are underneath if so designed, not on the outside of the model where Shapeways have layering. It is alternative technology but from my point of view is better as the viewable part of the model doesn't need priming, sanding, priming, sanding etc.
Yep, a Shapeways employee has to clean things up (although not always that well), so what? Dunk it in an ultrasonic cleaner. With a couple of resin locos I've bought the supplier has offered to snip all the supports off for a couple of quid.
Obviously your opinion is different to mine but to me the quality of a UV resin print is far superior for less cost than Shapeways smoothest fine detail plastic. Snipping off supports and a bit of sanding of hidden areas is far easier than trying to get rid of layering which is the only option from Shapeways.
Cost of the designers time is factored in whether a home print or Shapeways.
Title: Re: SHAPEWAYS PRICE HIKE ON THE 30TH
Post by: njee20 on June 29, 2020, 09:23:44 PM
Iíve often looked at putting my designs on Shapeways, but itís just too expensive IMO. Iím happy printing them myself, ok it may mean people wait a bit, and perhaps thatíll cost me sales, but I do it for a bit of fun and to make models I want, offsetting the cost of the equipment (no reason to spend £1400 on a printer after all; the <£250 Mars and Photon have a finer resolution, although I realise the Shuffle XL has other benefits) and supplies. 

I-Materialise are cheaper than Shapeways, they donít like spruing of models, But for one off models it appears viable.
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